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Albrecht:<br>
I understand but why do you think assuming a new set of orbiting
particles , using a force you made up to fit your desired result,
that also happens to propagate at "c", through no media, and then
conducting a derivation based upon external forces that effect only
one of the particles so you can calculate a reaction force from the
other stationary one is easier than to assume an internal property
of inertia, basta!<br>
<br>
To get attention new theories must predict new phenomena<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Wolf<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/9/2016 9:02 AM, Albrecht Giese
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56BA1BA0.6060008@a-giese.de" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
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Hi Wolf,<br>
<br>
regarding my mass model (i.e. the fact that any extended object
must have inertia):<br>
<br>
You suspect that there are hidden assumptions which I did not
state. Yes, there are more assumptions, but those are so much
common sense that it did not find it necessary to mention them
explicitly. I can make that up here. <br>
<br>
If an object is extended there must be on the one hand a forces
which binds the constituents to each other. On the other hand the
force has to be in a way that there is a distance maintained,
otherwise an extension does logically not exist. (There is one
other possibility for an extension, that is a planetary system.
But this has to be excluded here as it needs massive constituents.
Now the goal here is to deduce mass and so mass cannot be assumed
as a pre-condition. That excludes this possibility.)<br>
<br>
Now, if we have this situation that there is an extended object
with some kind of force which makes the extended object possible
in some way, and the propagation of this force takes place with c,
then this is sufficient to have inertia; then we have necessarily
inertia, there is no other outcome possible.<br>
<br>
I have made another further assumption in my derivation. That is
the shape of the binding field. For the field shape which I have
chosen the result of my derivation is Newton's law of motion (in
the non-relativistic case). If we assume a different shape then
there will be still inertia, however Newton's law will not be
fulfilled. Resumé again: inertia cannot be avoided for an extended
object.<br>
<br>
Best, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 08.02.2016 um 20:26 schrieb
Wolfgang Baer:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B8EC03.7080702@nascentinc.com" type="cite">
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To All:<br>
This is a very interesting discussion, although I feel you two
(Albrecht, Al) and are talking past each other.<br>
The repetition of Albrecht's call to read his derivation is
appropriate. I have done so and see no problem with the
conclusion that extended particles will have inertia if c is
finite. The problem is not with the derivation but with the
insistence that the speed of light and particle extension are
all that is required. There are a lot of hidden assumptions
(like what holds the extended particle together, and why does a
force on one side of an extended particle not also move the
other side) and if one adds them all up does one come up with a
simpler overall explanation for inertial mass than just assuming
inertial mass to begin with.<br>
<br>
However the issue I would like to question is ""interaction",
which mnight as well be thought of an absract string between
charges."<br>
I've been trying to get an answer to the question "what are
strings made of" on ResearchGate and the best answer besides
that it is an abstract useful concept has been "Strings are made
of smoke and mirrors", However I lean toward Strings are made of
Action, i.e. the material of a world line. Is this what you ,Al,
had in mind with the quoted passage?<br>
<br>
Wolf<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/5/2016 6:15 PM, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:trinity-67b38ada-96f4-4d0a-8fa6-ff53a191ad48-1454724949062@3capp-webde-bs37"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>DeBroglie's verbage is indeed quite rococo!
Nonetheless, his machinations, although verbalized, in
the true tradtion of quantum mechanics, mysteriously,
can be reinterpreted (i.e., alternate verbage found
without changing any of the math) so as to tell a fully,
if (somewhat) hetrodoxical, story. See #11 on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com">www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com</a></a>.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>cc: Waves are never a characteristic of a single,
point-like entity, but colletive motion of a medium. IF
they exist at all. My view is that E&M waves are a
fiction wrought by Fourier analysis. The only real
physical part is an "interaction", which mnight as well
be thought of an absract string between charges. Also,
neutrons have electric multipole moments; i.e., they are
totally neutral but not charge-free. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best, Al </div>
<div>
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px;
padding: 10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid
#C3D9E5; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,
05. Februar 2016 um 21:43 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "Richard Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie Wave</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);">Hi
Al,<br>
<br>
true, in the frame of the particle the dB
wavelength is infinite. Because in its own frame
the momentum of the particle is 0. The particle
oscillates with the frequency of the particle's
Zitterbewegung (which background fields do you
have in mind? De Brogie does not mention them).
This oscillation is in no contradiction with this
wavelength as the phase speed is also infinite.
For the imagination, the latter means that all
points of that wave oscillate with the same phase
at any point.<br>
<br>
Which background waves do you have in mind? What
is the CNONOICAL momentum? And what about E&M
interactions? De Broglie has not related his wave
to a specific field. An E&M field would anyway
have no effect in the case of neutron scattering
for which the same de Broglie formalism is used.
And into which frame do you see the wave
Lorentz-transformed?<br>
<br>
So, an electron in his frame has an infinite
wavelength and in his frame has the double slit
moving towards the particle. How can an
interference at the slits occur? No interference
can happen under these conditions. But, as I have
explained in the paper, the normal wave which
accompanies the electron by normal rules (i.e.
phase speed = c) will have an interference with
its own reflection, which has then a wavelength
which fits to the expectation of de Broglie. But
that is a very local event (in a range of approx.
10^-12 m for the electron) and it is not at all a
property of the electron as de Broglie has
thought.<br>
<br>
To say it again: The de Broglie wavelength cannot
be a steady property of the particle. But
Schrödinger and Dirac have incorporated it into
their QM equations with this understanding.<br>
<br>
If I should have misunderstood you, please show
the mathematical calculations which you mean.<br>
<br>
Ciao, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 05.02.2016 um
19:20 schrieb <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de" target="_parent">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi: Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Your arguments don't resonate with me.
The deB' wave length is infinite in the
particles frame: it is the standing wave
formed by the inpinging background waves
having a freq. = the particle's
Zitterbewegung. If these TWO waves are
each Lorentz x-formed to another frame and
added there, they exhibit exactly the DeB'
modulation wavelength proportional to the
particle's momentum. The only mysterious
feature then is that the proportionality
is to the CNONICAL momentum, i.e.,
including the vector potential of whatever
exterior E&M interactions are
in-coming. Nevertheless, everything works
our without contradiction. A particle
oscillates in place at its Zitter freq.
while the Zitter signals are modulated by
the DeB' wavelength as they move through
slits, say.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, L</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px
10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid
rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,
05. Februar 2016 um 12:28 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Richard Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>Hi Richard and Al, hi All,<br>
<br>
recently we had a discussion here
about two topics:<br>
<br>
1. The functionality of the de Broglie
wave, particularly its wavelength<br>
if seen from a different inertial
system. Such cases lead to illogical<br>
situations.<br>
2. The problem of the apparent
asymmetry at relativistic dilation.<br>
<br>
I have investigated these cases and
found that they are in some way<br>
connected. Relativistic dilation is
not as simple as it is normally<br>
taken. It looks asymmetric if it is
incorrectly treated. An asymmetry<br>
would falsify Special Relativity. But
it is in fact symmetrical if<br>
properly handled and understood.<br>
<br>
It is funny that both problems are
connected to each other through the<br>
fact that de Broglie himself has
misinterpreted dilation. From this<br>
incorrect understanding he did not
find another way out than to invent<br>
his "theorem of phase harmony"; with
all logical conflicts resulting<br>
from this approach.<br>
<br>
If relativity is properly understood,
the problem seen by de Broglie<br>
does not exist. Equations regarding
matter waves can be derived which<br>
work properly, i.e. conform to the
experiments but avoid the logical<br>
conflicts.<br>
<br>
As announced, I have composed a paper
about this. It can be found at:<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength"
target="_blank">https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength</a><br>
.<br>
<br>
I thank Richard Gauthier for the
discussion which we had about this<br>
topic. It caused me to investigate the
problem and to find a solution.<br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
---<br>
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