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Hi Al,<br>
<br>
I have the impression that you have a solution for particle
scattering which is in some way related to the idea of de Broglie.
(I also have of course a solution). But was this the goal of our
discussion and of my original contribution? It was not! My objection
was de Broglie's original idea as stated in his thesis and as taken
over by Schrödinger and Dirac.<br>
<br>
You have a lot of elements in your argumentation which I do not find
in the thesis of de Broglie. (There is e.g. nothing at dB about SED
ore background.)<br>
<br>
The essential point of our discussion is the meaning of his wave -
and his wavelength. I think it is very obvious from his thesis
(which you clearly know) that his "fictitious wave" accompanies a
particle like the electron<i> all of the time</i>. There is no
interaction mentioned except that there is an observer at rest who
measures the frequency of the particle. But without influencing the
particle.<br>
<br>
Now it is normal knowledge that a frequency and as well a wavelength
appears changed for an observer who is in motion. This is caused by
the Doppler effect. But the Doppler effect will never cause that a
finite wavelength changes to Infinite if an observer moves at some
speed unequal to c. But just that happens to the wave invented by de
Broglie. It follows the equation <br>
<br>
lambda = h/(m*v) where v is the speed difference between the
particle and the observer (to say it this time this way). And this
is in conflict to any physics we know. <br>
<br>
Best, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 08.02.2016 um 17:20 schrieb <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:trinity-fb69e72c-7b23-4d21-b493-95047d564af9-1454948447538@3capp-webde-bap35"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Your challenge is easy! In fact my last responce covered
it. The RELEVANT velocity is the relative velocity between
the particle and the slit; not that between the
observer-particle or observer-slit. An observer will see
all kinds of distortions of the events, starting with simple
persepctive due to being at some distance from the slit and
its registration screen. In additon this observer will see
those deB waves affecting the particle (NOT from the
particle, nor from the slit, but from the universal
background there before either the particle or slit came
into being) as perspectively-relativistically distorted
(twin-clock type distortion). BUT, the observer will still
see the same over-all background because the totality of
background signals (not just those to which this particle is
tuned), i.e., its spectral energy density, is itself Lorentz
invariant. That is, the observer's motion does not enable
it to empirically distinguish between the background in the
various frames, nor does the background engender friction
forces.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You have got to get your head around the idea that deB
waves are independant of particles whatever their frame.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Schrördinger did toy with some aspects that deBroglie
used, but never did succeed in rationalizing his eq. in
those or any other terms. For him, when died, wave
functions were ontologically completely mysterious. From
SED proponents, I'm told, my thoughts in #7 on <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com">www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com</a></a>,
are unique in formulating S's eq. in terms of deB concepts.
Try it, maybe you'll like it. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>There are other SED-type stories too, but as they are
based on diffusion (parabolic, not hyperbolic) precesses, I
find them self contradictory.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, Al</div>
<div>
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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Montag,
08. Februar 2016 um 141 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>,
"Richard Gauthier" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie Wave</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
if you follow de Broglie, you should have an
explanation for the following experiment (here again):<br>
<br>
Electrons move at 0.1 c towards the double slit.
Behind the double slit there is an interference
pattern generated, which in the frame of the slit
follows the rule of de Broglie. But now there is an
observer also moving at 0.1 c parallel to the beam of
electrons. In his frame the electrons have momentum=0
and so wavelength=infinite. That means: No
interference pattern. But there is in fact a pattern
which does not disappear just because there is another
observer. And the moving observer will see the
pattern. - This is a falsification of de Broglie's
rule. What else?<br>
<br>
The understanding that the de Broglie wave is a
property of the particle (even though depending on
their speed, but not on an interaction) was not my
idea but the one of Schrödinger and Dirac and many
others. Also by de Broglie himself.<br>
<br>
Ciao Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 08.02.2016 um 03:30
schrieb <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de" target="_parent">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>BUT, the laws of Physics for "being" in a
frame are not the laws for interacting between
frames! The deB. wave is not a feature of a
particle in its own frame, but a feature of
the interaction of such a particle with at
least one other particle in another frame.
When the two frames are moving with respect
to each other, then the features of the
interaction cannot be Lorentz invariants.
When one particle is interacting with another
particle (or ensemble---slit say) the relevant
physics is determined by the deB wave in that
sitation, whatever it looks like to an
observer in a third frame with yet different
relative velocities. It is a perspective
effect: a tree is the same ontological size in
fact no matter how small it appears to distant
observers. Observed diminished size(s) cannot
be "invriant." Appearances =/= ,,so sein''.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You have gotten your head stuck on the idea
that deB. waves are characteristics intrinsic
to particles in an of themselves.
Recalibrate! DeB waves are charactteristics
of the mutual interaction of particles.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best, Al</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px
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rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
07. Februar 2016 um 22:10 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>,
"Richard Gauthier" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie
Wave</div>
<div>
<div style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
at one of your points I really disagree.
The physical laws have to be fulfilled
in every frame. That means that all
physical processes have to obey the same
laws in all frames. So also the process
at the double slit. But the rule given
by de Broglie looks correct in only one
frame, that is the frame where the
double slit is at rest. For an observer
in motion the diffraction pattern looks
very similar as for the observer at
rest, but for the observer in motion the
results according to de Broglie are
completely different, because the
momentum of the particle is different in
a wide range in the frame of a moving
observer and so is the wavelength
assigned to the particle.<br>
<br>
The specific case: At electron
scattering, the observer co-moving with
the electron will see a similar pattern
as the observer at rest, but de Broglie
says that for this observer there does
not exist any pattern. That is strongly
incorrect.<br>
<br>
The Schrödinger equation and also the
Dirac function should have correct
results in different frames, at least at
non-relativistic speeds. This
requirement is clearly violated through
their use of de Broglie's rule.<br>
<br>
Grüße<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
PS: Your article refers to "Stochastic
Electrodynamics". That is in my
knowledge not standard physics and so a
new assumption.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
07.02.2016 um 19:03 schrieb <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In my view the story in my
paper has no new assunptions,
rather new words for old
assumptions. As I, along with
most others, see it, there is no
conflict with experiment, but a
less than fully transparent
explantion for experimental
observations (particle beam
diffrction) otherwise
unexplained. At the time of
writing, and nowadays too
(although I'd to think that my
paper rationalizes DeB's story)
it was the most widely accepted
story for this phenomna. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The only entities that
logically need to be Lorentz
invariant are the particle. I
the deB wave is not a
'Bestandteil' of the particle,
but of its relations with its
envionment, then invariance is
not defined nor useful.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>M.f.G. Al</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px
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2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px
0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
07. Februar 2016 um 14:39
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese"
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="genmail@a-giese.de"
target="_parent"><genmail@a-giese.de></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard Gauthier" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
thank you for your
reference. Your paper has
a lot of intelligent
thoughts but also a lot of
additional assumptions.
With reference to the de
Broglie wave, I think, is
the situation much simpler
on the level of
conservative knowledge. De
Broglie has misunderstood
relativity (particularly
dilation) and so seen a
conflict which does in
fact not exist. He has
solved the conflict by
inventing an additional
"fictitious" wave which
has no other foundation in
physics, and also his
"theorem of harmonic
phases" which as well is
an invention without need.
And his result is in
conflict with the
experiment if we ask for
Lorentz invariance or even
for Galilean invariance.
- If we follow the basic
idea of de Broglie by,
however, avoiding his
logical error about
relativity, we come easily
to a description of matter
waves without logical
conflicts. This does not
need new philosophy or
other effort at this
level.<br>
<br>
Best, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
06.02.2016 um 03:15
schrieb <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>DeBroglie's
verbage is indeed
quite rococo!
Nonetheless, his
machinations,
although
verbalized, in the
true tradtion of
quantum mechanics,
mysteriously, can
be reinterpreted
(i.e., alternate
verbage found
without changing
any of the math)
so as to tell a
fully, if
(somewhat)
hetrodoxical,
story. See #11 on
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com">www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com</a></a>.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>cc: Waves are
never a
characteristic of
a single,
point-like entity,
but colletive
motion of a
medium. IF they
exist at all. My
view is that
E&M waves are
a fiction wrought
by Fourier
analysis. The
only real physical
part is an
"interaction",
which mnight as
well be thought of
an absract string
between charges.
Also, neutrons
have electric
multipole moments;
i.e., they are
totally neutral
but not
charge-free. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best, Al </div>
<div>
<div
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<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,
05. Februar
2016 um 21:43
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>,
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "Richard
Gauthier" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
true, in the
frame of the
particle the
dB wavelength
is infinite.
Because in its
own frame the
momentum of
the particle
is 0. The
particle
oscillates
with the
frequency of
the particle's
Zitterbewegung
(which
background
fields do you
have in mind?
De Brogie does
not mention
them). This
oscillation is
in no
contradiction
with this
wavelength as
the phase
speed is also
infinite. For
the
imagination,
the latter
means that all
points of that
wave oscillate
with the same
phase at any
point.<br>
<br>
Which
background
waves do you
have in mind?
What is the
CNONOICAL
momentum? And
what about
E&M
interactions?
De Broglie has
not related
his wave to a
specific
field. An
E&M field
would anyway
have no effect
in the case of
neutron
scattering for
which the same
de Broglie
formalism is
used. And into
which frame do
you see the
wave
Lorentz-transformed?<br>
<br>
So, an
electron in
his frame has
an infinite
wavelength and
in his frame
has the double
slit moving
towards the
particle. How
can an
interference
at the slits
occur? No
interference
can happen
under these
conditions.
But, as I have
explained in
the paper, the
normal wave
which
accompanies
the electron
by normal
rules (i.e.
phase speed =
c) will have
an
interference
with its own
reflection,
which has then
a wavelength
which fits to
the
expectation of
de Broglie.
But that is a
very local
event (in a
range of
approx. 10^-12
m for the
electron) and
it is not at
all a property
of the
electron as de
Broglie has
thought.<br>
<br>
To say it
again: The de
Broglie
wavelength
cannot be a
steady
property of
the particle.
But
Schrödinger
and Dirac have
incorporated
it into their
QM equations
with this
understanding.<br>
<br>
If I should
have
misunderstood
you, please
show the
mathematical
calculations
which you
mean.<br>
<br>
Ciao, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
05.02.2016 um
19:20 schrieb
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div
style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi:
Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Your
arguments
don't resonate
with me. The
deB' wave
length is
infinite in
the particles
frame: it is
the standing
wave formed by
the inpinging
background
waves having a
freq. = the
particle's
Zitterbewegung.
If these TWO
waves are each
Lorentz
x-formed to
another frame
and added
there, they
exhibit
exactly the
DeB'
modulation
wavelength
proportional
to the
particle's
momentum. The
only
mysterious
feature then
is that the
proportionality
is to the
CNONICAL
momentum,
i.e.,
including the
vector
potential of
whatever
exterior
E&M
interactions
are in-coming.
Nevertheless,
everything
works our
without
contradiction.
A particle
oscillates in
place at its
Zitter freq.
while the
Zitter signals
are modulated
by the DeB'
wavelength as
they move
through slits,
say.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, L</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:
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<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,
05. Februar
2016 um 12:28
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Richard
Gauthier" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a>,
<a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>Hi
Richard and
Al, hi All,<br>
<br>
recently we
had a
discussion
here about two
topics:<br>
<br>
1. The
functionality
of the de
Broglie wave,
particularly
its wavelength<br>
if seen from a
different
inertial
system. Such
cases lead to
illogical<br>
situations.<br>
2. The problem
of the
apparent
asymmetry at
relativistic
dilation.<br>
<br>
I have
investigated
these cases
and found that
they are in
some way<br>
connected.
Relativistic
dilation is
not as simple
as it is
normally<br>
taken. It
looks
asymmetric if
it is
incorrectly
treated. An
asymmetry<br>
would falsify
Special
Relativity.
But it is in
fact
symmetrical if<br>
properly
handled and
understood.<br>
<br>
It is funny
that both
problems are
connected to
each other
through the<br>
fact that de
Broglie
himself has
misinterpreted
dilation. From
this<br>
incorrect
understanding
he did not
find another
way out than
to invent<br>
his "theorem
of phase
harmony"; with
all logical
conflicts
resulting<br>
from this
approach.<br>
<br>
If relativity
is properly
understood,
the problem
seen by de
Broglie<br>
does not
exist.
Equations
regarding
matter waves
can be derived
which<br>
work properly,
i.e. conform
to the
experiments
but avoid the
logical<br>
conflicts.<br>
<br>
As announced,
I have
composed a
paper about
this. It can
be found at:<br>
<br>
<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength">https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength</a></a><br>
.<br>
<br>
I thank
Richard
Gauthier for
the discussion
which we had
about this<br>
topic. It
caused me to
investigate
the problem
and to find a
solution.<br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
---<br>
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