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    I can feel your frustration, Albrecht, <br>
    The oldies are probably all wrong, but it's important to remember
    that right or wrong they give us the platform from which to see
    farther.<br>
    "standing on the shoulders of others", and right or wrong they give
    us something tangible to argue about<br>
    and what quantum numbers have done for us to organize chemistry is
    amazing.<br>
    <br>
    wolf<br>
     <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/9/2016 10:18 AM, Albrecht Giese
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:56BA2D87.5090908@a-giese.de" type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      Hi Al,<br>
      <br>
      the choice of de Broglie is not suboptimal, it is clearly wrong.
      Badly wrong. The wave he has introduced does not exist, and if it
      would exist its behaviour would cause a physical behaviour which
      is in conflict with measurements (if those are comprehensively
      done).<br>
      <br>
      I agree with you that the main object now is to move forward. But
      we will not move successfully forward if we carry millstones with
      us. De Broglie's wave is a millstone. I just had a look into a new
      textbook about QM, which was highly recommended by our university.
      It makes full use of de Broglie's relation between momentum and
      wavelength, so this is unfortunately not just history. <br>
      <br>
      But looking into the history: Bohr, Sommerfeld and others have
      used the result of de Broglie to explain quantum numbers.
      Particularly the quantisation of the angular momentum on atomic
      shells is explained by "standing waves" where the wavelength is
      the one defined by dB. This obviously hides the true reason of
      this quantisation, but as anyone believes that the Ansatz using de
      Broglie is right, nobody is looking for the correct cause. - This
      is one of the reasons for our sticking physics.<br>
      <br>
      Tschüss back<br>
      Albrecht<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 09.02.2016 um 14:57 schrieb <a
          moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
          href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote
cite="mid:trinity-72537819-ce78-41a7-b82e-b4d7545f4651-1455026275771@3capp-webde-bs59"
        type="cite">
        <div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
          <div>
            <div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
            <div> </div>
            <div>As you fully know, the very same idea can be expressed
              in various languages.  This is true of physics also. The
              very same structure can be attached to variuos words and
              images.  I do not defend deBroglie's choice of words and
              images. I too find his choice suboptimal and somewhat
              contrdictory.  So what?  He was playing his hand at that
              time with the hand he was delt at that time.  Since then,
              other ideas have been found in the deck, as it were.  I
              find that, without changing any of his math, one can tell
              a story that is vastly less etherial and mysterious and,
              depending on the reader's depth of analysis, less
              self-contradictory.  I think my story is the one DeBrogle
              would have told if he had been inspired by some facits of
              SED.  And, some people have a greater affinty and interest
              in abstract structures, in particular when their
              mathematical redintion seems to work, that for the stories
              told for their explication.  This is particularly true of
              all things QM. </div>
            <div> </div>
            <div>Anyway, the main object now (2016) is to move forward,
              not critique historical personalitites.  So, I'm trying to
              contribute to this discussion by adding what I know now,
              and what I have found to be useful.  We are "doing"
              physics, not history.  Let's make new errors, not just
              grind away on the old ones!</div>
            <div> </div>
            <div>BTW, to my info, both Dirac and Schrödinger would agree
              that deBroglie proposed some not too cogent arguments
              regarding the nature of QM-wave functions. Still, the best
              there at that time. All the same, they too went to their
              graves without having found a satisfactory interpretation.
               SED throws some new ingredients into the mix.  </div>
            <div> </div>
            <div>Tschuss, Al </div>
            <div> 
              <div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px;
                padding: 10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid
                #C3D9E5; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
                space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
                <div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag,

                  09. Februar 2016 um 13:41 Uhr<br>
                  <b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a
                    moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                    href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
                  <b>An:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                    href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                    href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>,
                  "Richard Gauthier" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                    href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a><br>
                  <b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie Wave</div>
                <div name="quoted-content">
                  <div style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);">Hi
                    Al,<br>
                    <br>
                    I have the impression that you have a solution for
                    particle scattering which is in some way related to
                    the idea of de Broglie. (I also have of course a
                    solution). But was this the goal of our discussion
                    and of my original contribution? It was not! My
                    objection was de Broglie's original idea as stated
                    in his thesis and as taken over by Schrödinger and
                    Dirac.<br>
                    <br>
                    You have a lot of elements in your argumentation
                    which I do not find in the thesis of de Broglie.
                    (There is e.g. nothing at dB about SED ore
                    background.)<br>
                    <br>
                    The essential point of our discussion is the meaning
                    of his wave - and his wavelength. I think it is very
                    obvious from his thesis (which you clearly know)
                    that his "fictitious wave" accompanies a particle
                    like the electron<i> all of the time</i>. There is
                    no interaction mentioned except that there is an
                    observer at rest who measures the frequency of the
                    particle. But without influencing the particle.<br>
                    <br>
                    Now it is normal knowledge that a frequency and as
                    well a wavelength appears changed for an observer
                    who is in motion. This is caused by the Doppler
                    effect. But the Doppler effect will never cause that
                    a finite wavelength changes to Infinite if an
                    observer moves at some speed unequal to c. But just
                    that happens to the wave invented by de Broglie. It
                    follows the equation<br>
                    <br>
                    lambda = h/(m*v)    where v is the speed difference
                    between the particle and the observer (to say it
                    this time this way). And this is in conflict to any
                    physics we know.<br>
                    <br>
                    Best, Albrecht<br>
                    <br>
                     
                    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 08.02.2016 um 17:20
                      schrieb <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                        href="af.kracklauer@web.de" target="_parent">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:</div>
                    <blockquote>
                      <div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size:
                        12.0px;">
                        <div>
                          <div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
                          <div> </div>
                          <div>Your challenge is easy!  In fact my last
                            responce covered it.   The RELEVANT velocity
                            is the relative velocity between the
                            particle and the slit; not that between the
                            observer-particle or observer-slit.   An
                            observer will see all kinds of distortions
                            of the events, starting with simple
                            persepctive due to being at some distance
                            from the slit and its registration screen.
                             In additon this observer will see those deB
                            waves affecting the particle (NOT from the
                            particle, nor from the slit, but from the
                            universal background there before either the
                            particle or slit came into being)  as
                            perspectively-relativistically distorted
                            (twin-clock type distortion).  BUT, the
                            observer will still see the same over-all
                            background because the totality of
                            background signals (not just those to which
                            this particle is tuned), i.e., its spectral
                            energy density, is itself Lorentz invariant.
                             That is, the observer's  motion does not
                             enable it to empirically distinguish
                            between the background in the various
                            frames, nor does the background engender
                            friction forces.</div>
                          <div> </div>
                          <div>You have got to get your head around the
                            idea that deB waves are independant of
                            particles whatever their frame.</div>
                          <div> </div>
                          <div>Schrördinger did toy with some aspects
                            that deBroglie used, but never did succeed
                            in rationalizing his eq. in those or any
                            other terms.  For him, when died, wave
                            functions were ontologically completely
                            mysterious.  From SED proponents, I'm told,
                            my thoughts in #7 on <a
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                              href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com"
                              target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com">www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com</a></a>,
                            are unique in formulating S's eq. in terms
                            of deB concepts.  Try it, maybe you'll like
                            it.  </div>
                          <div> </div>
                          <div>There are other SED-type stories too, but
                            as they are based on diffusion (parabolic,
                            not hyperbolic) precesses, I find them self
                            contradictory.</div>
                          <div> </div>
                          <div>ciao, Al</div>
                          <div> 
                            <div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px
                              10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
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                              rgb(195,217,229);">
                              <div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Montag,

                                08. Februar 2016 um 141 Uhr<br>
                                <b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                                  href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
                                <b>An:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                  href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
                                  target="_parent">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
                                <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                  href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
                                  target="_parent">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>,
                                "Richard Gauthier" <a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                                  href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
                                <b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie
                                Wave</div>
                              <div>
                                <div style="background-color:
                                  rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
                                  <br>
                                  if you follow de Broglie, you should
                                  have an explanation for the following
                                  experiment (here again):<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Electrons move at 0.1 c towards the
                                  double slit. Behind the double slit
                                  there is an interference pattern
                                  generated, which in the frame of the
                                  slit follows the rule of de Broglie.
                                  But now there is an observer also
                                  moving at 0.1 c parallel to the beam
                                  of electrons. In his frame the
                                  electrons have momentum=0 and so
                                  wavelength=infinite. That means: No
                                  interference pattern. But there is in
                                  fact a pattern which does not
                                  disappear just because there is
                                  another observer. And the moving
                                  observer will see the pattern. - This
                                  is a falsification of de Broglie's
                                  rule. What else?<br>
                                  <br>
                                  The understanding that the de Broglie
                                  wave is a property of the particle
                                  (even though depending on their speed,
                                  but not on an interaction) was not my
                                  idea but the one of Schrödinger and
                                  Dirac and many others. Also by de
                                  Broglie himself.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Ciao Albrecht<br>
                                  <br>
                                   
                                  <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
                                    08.02.2016 um 03:30 schrieb <a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                      href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
                                  <blockquote>
                                    <div style="font-family:
                                      Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
                                      <div>
                                        <div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
                                        <div> </div>
                                        <div>BUT, the laws of Physics
                                          for "being" in a frame are not
                                          the laws for interacting
                                          between frames!  The deB. wave
                                          is not a feature of a particle
                                          in its own frame, but a
                                          feature of the interaction of
                                          such a particle with at least
                                          one other particle in another
                                          frame.  When the two frames
                                          are moving with respect to
                                          each other, then the features
                                          of the interaction cannot be
                                          Lorentz invariants.  When one
                                          particle is interacting with
                                          another particle (or
                                          ensemble---slit say) the
                                          relevant physics is determined
                                          by the deB wave in that
                                          sitation, whatever it looks
                                          like to an observer in a third
                                          frame with yet different
                                          relative velocities.  It is a
                                          perspective effect: a tree is
                                          the same ontological size in
                                          fact no matter how small it
                                          appears to distant observers.
                                           Observed diminished size(s)
                                          cannot be "invriant."
                                           Appearances =/= ,,so sein''.</div>
                                        <div> </div>
                                        <div>You have gotten your head
                                          stuck on the idea that deB.
                                          waves are characteristics
                                          intrinsic to particles in an
                                          of themselves.  Recalibrate!
                                           DeB waves are
                                          charactteristics of the mutual
                                          interaction of particles.</div>
                                        <div> </div>
                                        <div>Best, Al</div>
                                        <div> 
                                          <div style="margin: 10.0px
                                            5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding:
                                            10.0px 0 10.0px
                                            10.0px;border-left: 2.0px
                                            solid rgb(195,217,229);">
                                            <div style="margin: 0 0
                                              10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,

                                              07. Februar 2016 um 22:10
                                              Uhr<br>
                                              <b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
                                              Giese" <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="genmail@a-giese.de" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
                                              <b>An:</b> <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
                                              <b>Cc:</b> <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
                                              "Richard Gauthier" <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
                                              <b>Betreff:</b> Re:
                                              [General] De Broglie Wave</div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div
                                                style="background-color:
                                                rgb(255,255,255);">Hi
                                                Al,<br>
                                                <br>
                                                at one of your points I
                                                really disagree. The
                                                physical laws have to be
                                                fulfilled in every
                                                frame. That means that
                                                all physical processes
                                                have to obey the same
                                                laws in all frames. So
                                                also the process at the
                                                double slit. But the
                                                rule given by de Broglie
                                                looks correct in only
                                                one frame, that is the
                                                frame where the double
                                                slit is at rest. For an
                                                observer in motion the
                                                diffraction pattern
                                                looks very similar as
                                                for the observer at
                                                rest, but for the
                                                observer in motion the
                                                results according to de
                                                Broglie are completely
                                                different, because the
                                                momentum of the particle
                                                is different in a wide
                                                range in the frame of a
                                                moving observer and so
                                                is the wavelength
                                                assigned to the
                                                particle.<br>
                                                <br>
                                                The specific case: At
                                                electron scattering, the
                                                observer co-moving with
                                                the electron will see a
                                                similar pattern as the
                                                observer at rest, but de
                                                Broglie says that for
                                                this observer there does
                                                not exist any pattern.
                                                That is strongly
                                                incorrect.<br>
                                                <br>
                                                The Schrödinger equation
                                                and also the Dirac
                                                function should have
                                                correct results in
                                                different frames, at
                                                least at
                                                non-relativistic speeds.
                                                This requirement is
                                                clearly violated through
                                                their use of de
                                                Broglie's rule.<br>
                                                <br>
                                                Grüße<br>
                                                Albrecht<br>
                                                <br>
                                                PS: Your article refers
                                                to "Stochastic
                                                Electrodynamics". That
                                                is in my knowledge not
                                                standard physics and so
                                                a new assumption.<br>
                                                <br>
                                                 
                                                <div
                                                  class="moz-cite-prefix">Am

                                                  07.02.2016 um 19:03
                                                  schrieb <a
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
                                                <blockquote>
                                                  <div
                                                    style="font-family:
                                                    Verdana;font-size:
                                                    12.0px;">
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
                                                      <div> </div>
                                                      <div>In my view
                                                        the story in my
                                                        paper has no new
                                                        assunptions,
                                                        rather new words
                                                        for old
                                                        assumptions.  As
                                                        I, along with
                                                        most others, see
                                                        it, there is no
                                                        conflict with
                                                        experiment, but
                                                        a less than
                                                        fully
                                                        transparent
                                                        explantion for
                                                        experimental
                                                        observations
                                                        (particle beam
                                                        diffrction)
                                                        otherwise
                                                        unexplained.  At
                                                        the time of
                                                        writing, and
                                                        nowadays too
                                                        (although I'd to
                                                        think that my
                                                        paper
                                                        rationalizes
                                                        DeB's story) it
                                                        was the most
                                                        widely accepted
                                                        story for this
                                                        phenomna.  </div>
                                                      <div> </div>
                                                      <div>The only
                                                        entities that
                                                        logically need
                                                        to be Lorentz
                                                        invariant are
                                                        the particle.  I
                                                        the deB wave is
                                                        not a
                                                        'Bestandteil' of
                                                        the particle,
                                                        but of its
                                                        relations with
                                                        its envionment,
                                                        then invariance
                                                        is not defined
                                                        nor useful.</div>
                                                      <div> </div>
                                                      <div>M.f.G.  Al</div>
                                                      <div> 
                                                        <div
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                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,

                                                          07. Februar
                                                          2016 um 14:39
                                                          Uhr<br>
                                                          <b>Von:</b> "Albrecht

                                                          Giese" <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
                                                          <b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                                          href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                                          href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
                                                          "Richard
                                                          Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                                                          href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
                                                          <b>Betreff:</b> Re:

                                                          [General] De
                                                          Broglie Wave</div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          thank you for
                                                          your
                                                          reference.
                                                          Your paper has
                                                          a lot of
                                                          intelligent
                                                          thoughts but
                                                          also a lot of
                                                          additional
                                                          assumptions.
                                                          With reference
                                                          to the de
                                                          Broglie wave,
                                                          I think, is
                                                          the situation
                                                          much simpler
                                                          on the level
                                                          of
                                                          conservative
                                                          knowledge. De
                                                          Broglie has
                                                          misunderstood
                                                          relativity
                                                          (particularly
                                                          dilation) and
                                                          so seen a
                                                          conflict which
                                                          does in fact
                                                          not exist. He
                                                          has solved the
                                                          conflict by
                                                          inventing an
                                                          additional
                                                          "fictitious"
                                                          wave which has
                                                          no other
                                                          foundation in
                                                          physics, and
                                                          also his
                                                          "theorem of
                                                          harmonic
                                                          phases" which
                                                          as well is an
                                                          invention
                                                          without need.
                                                          And his result
                                                          is in conflict
                                                          with the
                                                          experiment if
                                                          we ask for
                                                          Lorentz
                                                          invariance or
                                                          even for
                                                          Galilean
                                                          invariance. - 
                                                          If we follow
                                                          the basic idea
                                                          of de Broglie
                                                          by, however,
                                                          avoiding his
                                                          logical error
                                                          about
                                                          relativity, we
                                                          come easily to
                                                          a description
                                                          of matter
                                                          waves without
                                                          logical
                                                          conflicts.
                                                          This does not
                                                          need new
                                                          philosophy or
                                                          other effort
                                                          at this level.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Best, Albrecht<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                           
                                                          <div
                                                          class="moz-cite-prefix">Am

                                                          06.02.2016 um
                                                          03:15 schrieb
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
                                                          <blockquote>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="font-family:
                                                          Verdana;font-size:

                                                          12.0px;">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>Hi
                                                          Albrecht:</div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div>DeBroglie's

                                                          verbage is
                                                          indeed quite
                                                          rococo!
                                                           Nonetheless,
                                                          his
                                                          machinations,
                                                          although
                                                          verbalized, in
                                                          the true
                                                          tradtion of
                                                          quantum
                                                          mechanics,
                                                          mysteriously,
                                                          can be
                                                          reinterpreted
                                                          (i.e.,
                                                          alternate
                                                          verbage found
                                                          without
                                                          changing any
                                                          of the math)
                                                          so as to tell
                                                          a fully, if
                                                          (somewhat)
                                                          hetrodoxical,
                                                          story.  See
                                                          #11 on <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                                          href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com">www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com</a></a>.</div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div>cc:
                                                           Waves are
                                                          never a
                                                          characteristic
                                                          of a single,
                                                          point-like
                                                          entity, but
                                                          colletive
                                                          motion of a
                                                          medium.  IF
                                                          they exist at
                                                          all.  My view
                                                          is that
                                                          E&M waves
                                                          are a fiction
                                                          wrought by
                                                          Fourier
                                                          analysis.  The
                                                          only real
                                                          physical part
                                                          is an
                                                          "interaction",
                                                          which mnight
                                                          as well be
                                                          thought of an
                                                          absract string
                                                          between
                                                          charges.
                                                           Also,
                                                          neutrons have
                                                          electric
                                                          multipole
                                                          moments; i.e.,
                                                          they are
                                                          totally
                                                          neutral but
                                                          not
                                                          charge-free. </div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div>Best,
                                                           Al </div>
                                                          <div> 
                                                          <div
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                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,

                                                          05. Februar
                                                          2016 um 21:43
                                                          Uhr<br>
                                                          <b>Von:</b> "Albrecht

                                                          Giese" <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
                                                          <b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                                          href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>,
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                                          href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a><br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b> "Richard

                                                          Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                                                          href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
                                                          <b>Betreff:</b> Re:

                                                          [General] De
                                                          Broglie Wave</div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          true, in the
                                                          frame of the
                                                          particle the
                                                          dB wavelength
                                                          is infinite.
                                                          Because in its
                                                          own frame the
                                                          momentum of
                                                          the particle
                                                          is 0. The
                                                          particle
                                                          oscillates
                                                          with the
                                                          frequency of
                                                          the particle's
                                                          Zitterbewegung
                                                          (which
                                                          background
                                                          fields do you
                                                          have in mind?
                                                          De Brogie does
                                                          not mention
                                                          them). This
                                                          oscillation is
                                                          in no
                                                          contradiction
                                                          with this
                                                          wavelength as
                                                          the phase
                                                          speed is also
                                                          infinite. For
                                                          the
                                                          imagination,
                                                          the latter
                                                          means that all
                                                          points of that
                                                          wave oscillate
                                                          with the same
                                                          phase at any
                                                          point.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Which 
                                                          background
                                                          waves do you
                                                          have in mind?
                                                          What is the
                                                          CNONOICAL
                                                          momentum? And
                                                          what about
                                                          E&M
                                                          interactions?
                                                          De Broglie has
                                                          not related
                                                          his wave to a
                                                          specific
                                                          field. An
                                                          E&M field
                                                          would anyway
                                                          have no effect
                                                          in the case of
                                                          neutron
                                                          scattering for
                                                          which the same
                                                          de Broglie
                                                          formalism is
                                                          used. And into
                                                          which frame do
                                                          you see the
                                                          wave
                                                          Lorentz-transformed?<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          So, an
                                                          electron in
                                                          his frame has
                                                          an infinite
                                                          wavelength and
                                                          in his frame
                                                          has the double
                                                          slit moving
                                                          towards the
                                                          particle. How
                                                          can an
                                                          interference
                                                          at the slits
                                                          occur? No
                                                          interference
                                                          can happen
                                                          under these
                                                          conditions.
                                                          But, as I have
                                                          explained in
                                                          the paper, the
                                                          normal wave
                                                          which
                                                          accompanies
                                                          the electron
                                                          by normal
                                                          rules (i.e.
                                                          phase speed =
                                                          c) will have
                                                          an
                                                          interference
                                                          with its own
                                                          reflection,
                                                          which has then
                                                          a wavelength
                                                          which fits to
                                                          the
                                                          expectation of
                                                          de Broglie.
                                                          But that is a
                                                          very local
                                                          event (in a
                                                          range of
                                                          approx. 10^-12
                                                          m for the
                                                          electron) and
                                                          it is not at
                                                          all a property
                                                          of the
                                                          electron as de
                                                          Broglie has
                                                          thought.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          To say it
                                                          again: The de
                                                          Broglie
                                                          wavelength
                                                          cannot be a
                                                          steady
                                                          property of
                                                          the particle.
                                                          But
                                                          Schrödinger
                                                          and Dirac have
                                                          incorporated
                                                          it into their
                                                          QM equations
                                                          with this
                                                          understanding.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          If I should
                                                          have
                                                          misunderstood
                                                          you, please
                                                          show the
                                                          mathematical
                                                          calculations
                                                          which you
                                                          mean.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Ciao, Albrecht<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                           
                                                          <div
                                                          class="moz-cite-prefix">Am

                                                          05.02.2016 um
                                                          19:20 schrieb
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
                                                          <blockquote>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="font-family:
                                                          Verdana;font-size:

                                                          12.0px;">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>Hi:
                                                          Albrecht:</div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div>Your
                                                          arguments
                                                          don't resonate
                                                          with me.  The
                                                          deB' wave
                                                          length is
                                                          infinite in
                                                          the particles
                                                          frame: it is
                                                          the standing
                                                          wave formed by
                                                          the inpinging
                                                          background
                                                          waves having a
                                                          freq. = the
                                                          particle's
                                                          Zitterbewegung.
                                                           If these TWO
                                                          waves are each
                                                          Lorentz
                                                          x-formed to
                                                          another frame
                                                          and added
                                                          there, they
                                                          exhibit
                                                          exactly the
                                                          DeB'
                                                          modulation
                                                          wavelength
                                                          proportional
                                                          to the
                                                          particle's
                                                          momentum.  The
                                                          only
                                                          mysterious
                                                          feature then
                                                          is that the
                                                          proportionality
                                                          is to the
                                                          CNONICAL
                                                          momentum,
                                                          i.e.,
                                                          including the
                                                          vector
                                                          potential of
                                                          whatever
                                                          exterior
                                                          E&M
                                                          interactions
                                                          are in-coming.
                                                           Nevertheless,
                                                          everything
                                                          works our
                                                          without
                                                          contradiction.
                                                           A particle
                                                          oscillates in
                                                          place at its
                                                          Zitter freq.
                                                          while the
                                                          Zitter signals
                                                          are modulated
                                                          by the DeB'
                                                          wavelength as
                                                          they move
                                                          through slits,
                                                          say.</div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div>ciao,  L</div>
                                                          <div> 
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
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                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin:
                                                          0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,

                                                          05. Februar
                                                          2016 um 12:28
                                                          Uhr<br>
                                                          <b>Von:</b> "Albrecht

                                                          Giese" <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
                                                          <b>An:</b> "Richard

                                                          Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                                                          href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a>,
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                                          href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a><br>
                                                          <b>Betreff:</b> Re:

                                                          [General] De
                                                          Broglie Wave</div>
                                                          <div>Hi
                                                          Richard and
                                                          Al, hi All,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          recently we
                                                          had a
                                                          discussion
                                                          here about two
                                                          topics:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          1. The
                                                          functionality
                                                          of the de
                                                          Broglie wave,
                                                          particularly
                                                          its wavelength<br>
                                                          if seen from a
                                                          different
                                                          inertial
                                                          system. Such
                                                          cases lead to
                                                          illogical<br>
                                                          situations.<br>
                                                          2. The problem
                                                          of the
                                                          apparent
                                                          asymmetry at
                                                          relativistic
                                                          dilation.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I have
                                                          investigated
                                                          these cases
                                                          and found that
                                                          they are in
                                                          some way<br>
                                                          connected.
                                                          Relativistic
                                                          dilation is
                                                          not as simple
                                                          as it is
                                                          normally<br>
                                                          taken. It
                                                          looks
                                                          asymmetric if
                                                          it is
                                                          incorrectly
                                                          treated. An
                                                          asymmetry<br>
                                                          would falsify
                                                          Special
                                                          Relativity.
                                                          But it is in
                                                          fact
                                                          symmetrical if<br>
                                                          properly
                                                          handled and
                                                          understood.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          It is funny
                                                          that both
                                                          problems are
                                                          connected to
                                                          each other
                                                          through the<br>
                                                          fact that de
                                                          Broglie
                                                          himself has
                                                          misinterpreted
                                                          dilation. From
                                                          this<br>
                                                          incorrect
                                                          understanding
                                                          he did not
                                                          find another
                                                          way out than
                                                          to invent<br>
                                                          his "theorem
                                                          of phase
                                                          harmony"; with
                                                          all logical
                                                          conflicts
                                                          resulting<br>
                                                          from this
                                                          approach.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          If relativity
                                                          is properly
                                                          understood,
                                                          the problem
                                                          seen by de
                                                          Broglie<br>
                                                          does not
                                                          exist.
                                                          Equations
                                                          regarding
                                                          matter waves
                                                          can be derived
                                                          which<br>
                                                          work properly,
                                                          i.e. conform
                                                          to the
                                                          experiments
                                                          but avoid the
                                                          logical<br>
                                                          conflicts.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          As announced,
                                                          I have
                                                          composed a
                                                          paper about
                                                          this. It can
                                                          be found at:<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength">https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength</a></a><br>
                                                          .<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          I thank
                                                          Richard
                                                          Gauthier for
                                                          the discussion
                                                          which we had
                                                          about this<br>
                                                          topic. It
                                                          caused me to
                                                          investigate
                                                          the problem
                                                          and to find a
                                                          solution.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Albrecht<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          ---<br>
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