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Hi Wolf,<br>
<br>
regarding my mass model (i.e. the fact that any extended object must
have inertia):<br>
<br>
You suspect that there are hidden assumptions which I did not state.
Yes, there are more assumptions, but those are so much common sense
that it did not find it necessary to mention them explicitly. I can
make that up here. <br>
<br>
If an object is extended there must be on the one hand a forces
which binds the constituents to each other. On the other hand the
force has to be in a way that there is a distance maintained,
otherwise an extension does logically not exist. (There is one other
possibility for an extension, that is a planetary system. But this
has to be excluded here as it needs massive constituents. Now the
goal here is to deduce mass and so mass cannot be assumed as a
pre-condition. That excludes this possibility.)<br>
<br>
Now, if we have this situation that there is an extended object with
some kind of force which makes the extended object possible in some
way, and the propagation of this force takes place with c, then this
is sufficient to have inertia; then we have necessarily inertia,
there is no other outcome possible.<br>
<br>
I have made another further assumption in my derivation. That is the
shape of the binding field. For the field shape which I have chosen
the result of my derivation is Newton's law of motion (in the
non-relativistic case). If we assume a different shape then there
will be still inertia, however Newton's law will not be fulfilled.
Resumé again: inertia cannot be avoided for an extended object.<br>
<br>
Best, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 08.02.2016 um 20:26 schrieb Wolfgang
Baer:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B8EC03.7080702@nascentinc.com" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
To All:<br>
This is a very interesting discussion, although I feel you two
(Albrecht, Al) and are talking past each other.<br>
The repetition of Albrecht's call to read his derivation is
appropriate. I have done so and see no problem with the conclusion
that extended particles will have inertia if c is finite. The
problem is not with the derivation but with the insistence that
the speed of light and particle extension are all that is
required. There are a lot of hidden assumptions (like what holds
the extended particle together, and why does a force on one side
of an extended particle not also move the other side) and if one
adds them all up does one come up with a simpler overall
explanation for inertial mass than just assuming inertial mass to
begin with.<br>
<br>
However the issue I would like to question is ""interaction",
which mnight as well be thought of an absract string between
charges."<br>
I've been trying to get an answer to the question "what are
strings made of" on ResearchGate and the best answer besides that
it is an abstract useful concept has been "Strings are made of
smoke and mirrors", However I lean toward Strings are made of
Action, i.e. the material of a world line. Is this what you ,Al,
had in mind with the quoted passage?<br>
<br>
Wolf<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/5/2016 6:15 PM, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:trinity-67b38ada-96f4-4d0a-8fa6-ff53a191ad48-1454724949062@3capp-webde-bs37"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>DeBroglie's verbage is indeed quite rococo!
Nonetheless, his machinations, although verbalized, in
the true tradtion of quantum mechanics, mysteriously, can
be reinterpreted (i.e., alternate verbage found without
changing any of the math) so as to tell a fully, if
(somewhat) hetrodoxical, story. See #11 on <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com">www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com</a></a>.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>cc: Waves are never a characteristic of a single,
point-like entity, but colletive motion of a medium. IF
they exist at all. My view is that E&M waves are a
fiction wrought by Fourier analysis. The only real
physical part is an "interaction", which mnight as well be
thought of an absract string between charges. Also,
neutrons have electric multipole moments; i.e., they are
totally neutral but not charge-free. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best, Al </div>
<div>
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px;
padding: 10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid
#C3D9E5; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,
05. Februar 2016 um 21:43 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "Richard Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie Wave</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);">Hi
Al,<br>
<br>
true, in the frame of the particle the dB wavelength
is infinite. Because in its own frame the momentum
of the particle is 0. The particle oscillates with
the frequency of the particle's Zitterbewegung
(which background fields do you have in mind? De
Brogie does not mention them). This oscillation is
in no contradiction with this wavelength as the
phase speed is also infinite. For the imagination,
the latter means that all points of that wave
oscillate with the same phase at any point.<br>
<br>
Which background waves do you have in mind? What is
the CNONOICAL momentum? And what about E&M
interactions? De Broglie has not related his wave to
a specific field. An E&M field would anyway have
no effect in the case of neutron scattering for
which the same de Broglie formalism is used. And
into which frame do you see the wave
Lorentz-transformed?<br>
<br>
So, an electron in his frame has an infinite
wavelength and in his frame has the double slit
moving towards the particle. How can an interference
at the slits occur? No interference can happen under
these conditions. But, as I have explained in the
paper, the normal wave which accompanies the
electron by normal rules (i.e. phase speed = c) will
have an interference with its own reflection, which
has then a wavelength which fits to the expectation
of de Broglie. But that is a very local event (in a
range of approx. 10^-12 m for the electron) and it
is not at all a property of the electron as de
Broglie has thought.<br>
<br>
To say it again: The de Broglie wavelength cannot be
a steady property of the particle. But Schrödinger
and Dirac have incorporated it into their QM
equations with this understanding.<br>
<br>
If I should have misunderstood you, please show the
mathematical calculations which you mean.<br>
<br>
Ciao, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 05.02.2016 um 19:20
schrieb <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de" target="_parent">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi: Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Your arguments don't resonate with me.
The deB' wave length is infinite in the
particles frame: it is the standing wave
formed by the inpinging background waves
having a freq. = the particle's
Zitterbewegung. If these TWO waves are each
Lorentz x-formed to another frame and added
there, they exhibit exactly the DeB'
modulation wavelength proportional to the
particle's momentum. The only mysterious
feature then is that the proportionality is
to the CNONICAL momentum, i.e., including
the vector potential of whatever exterior
E&M interactions are in-coming.
Nevertheless, everything works our without
contradiction. A particle oscillates in
place at its Zitter freq. while the Zitter
signals are modulated by the DeB' wavelength
as they move through slits, say.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, L</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px
10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid
rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,
05. Februar 2016 um 12:28 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Richard Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie
Wave</div>
<div>Hi Richard and Al, hi All,<br>
<br>
recently we had a discussion here about
two topics:<br>
<br>
1. The functionality of the de Broglie
wave, particularly its wavelength<br>
if seen from a different inertial
system. Such cases lead to illogical<br>
situations.<br>
2. The problem of the apparent asymmetry
at relativistic dilation.<br>
<br>
I have investigated these cases and
found that they are in some way<br>
connected. Relativistic dilation is not
as simple as it is normally<br>
taken. It looks asymmetric if it is
incorrectly treated. An asymmetry<br>
would falsify Special Relativity. But it
is in fact symmetrical if<br>
properly handled and understood.<br>
<br>
It is funny that both problems are
connected to each other through the<br>
fact that de Broglie himself has
misinterpreted dilation. From this<br>
incorrect understanding he did not find
another way out than to invent<br>
his "theorem of phase harmony"; with all
logical conflicts resulting<br>
from this approach.<br>
<br>
If relativity is properly understood,
the problem seen by de Broglie<br>
does not exist. Equations regarding
matter waves can be derived which<br>
work properly, i.e. conform to the
experiments but avoid the logical<br>
conflicts.<br>
<br>
As announced, I have composed a paper
about this. It can be found at:<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength"
target="_blank">https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength</a><br>
.<br>
<br>
I thank Richard Gauthier for the
discussion which we had about this<br>
topic. It caused me to investigate the
problem and to find a solution.<br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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