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<small>Hi Chandra,<br>
<br>
my concern is that de Broglie violated an essential point of our
physical understanding. That is the equivalence of all frames. If
this would be violated, then we would have to find a new set of
physical laws as soon as we are in a different frame. That means
for instance, if we have a lab on a ship, the physical results
there would be different from the physical laws on land and we had
to re-invent our complete physical system there. Similar in any
plane, similar on the Moon. I am afraid that we would have to give
up doing physics if this would be the case. So the independence of
the frame, which is philosophically the symmetry of space, is an
essential precondition to do physics as we know it. <br>
<br>
This fundamental rule is violated by de Broglie. He has related
the wavelength of his "fictitious wave" to the momentum of the
particle which is guided by this wave. Now there is always a frame
in which the particle is at rest and so momentum = zero.
Consequently the wavelength is infinite. But a wave with infinite
length does not have the properties which de Broglie needs to
explain the phenomena he is interested in. (And he only saw the
need to introduce such wave as he misunderstood relativistic
dilation.) And it is also unnecessary in so far as electron
scattering (as an example) can be perfectly explained with the
normal understanding of waves, as we have it for EM waves. <br>
<br>
The biggest impact which I see is the fact that this relation
between wavelength and momentum was incorporated into the QM
equations of Schrödinger and of Dirac (and of others) to describe
the spatial part of that equation. That can never be correct. Why
is it not noticed? The other relation used, the one of energy and
frequency (E = h * frequency) for the temporal development, is
correct, and most calculations in QM are about energy. So the
error seems acceptable for the normal business. But that does not
change the fact that the rest is incorrect (even though rewarded
by the Nobel Prize).<br>
<br>
I find it funny that there is such a big error in the middle of QM
since 90 years and nobody becomes aware of it. If we want a
development in physics, we have at the first place to get rid of
errors which are so obvious.<br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
</small><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 10.02.2016 um 17:42 schrieb
Roychoudhuri, Chandra:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";color:windowtext">Hi Albrecht:
You are tackling a tough problem and the mainstream would
not show sympathy because, for them, the prevailing
framework is “working”! Why rock the boat?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";color:windowtext">I do not
have much to contribute. But, I would suggest that you pay
attention to the details of measuring process (Interaction
Process Mapping Epistemology, or IPM-E). How do we draw the
conclusion that a body has “inertia of motion”. We always
need two or more bodies to somehow interact and display some
changes (data). What is the interaction mediating force
(potential gradient)? From what outcome do we draw the
conclusion that one or both the bodies are displaying the
property we have named “inertia”?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";color:windowtext">Remember,
humans are interpreters of observed changes in a controlled
environment (our experimental data).
</span><b><i><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:106%;font-family:"Times
New Roman","serif";color:windowtext">We
are not the observers.
</span></i></b><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";color:windowtext">Human
interpretations can vary widely for the same observed
effect. That is why we get stuck on interpretations that
appear to be reasonable during the cultural period they were
made. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";color:windowtext">I am clearly
of the opinion that we must re-evaluate and re-interpret all
the fundamental postulates of all the theories and all the
interpretations. Only this way can we move forward; rather
than piling up new rationalizations over older
interpretations made based upon earlier insufficient
information.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";color:windowtext">Chandra.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
General
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<b>On
Behalf Of </b>Albrecht Giese<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 10, 2016 9:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie Wave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi Al,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;line-height:106%">You say “DeB's
formuals give results in accord with empirical observations
“.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;line-height:106%">I am very
surprised about this repeated statement. I think our past
discussion has shown that the concept of de Broglie is
completely wrong – except his statement that there exist
matter waves. He has postulated a wave which in fact does
not exist and which does not have any foundation in physics.
It has a wavelength which – by his rule – disappears when an
observer moves at some medium speed. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;line-height:106%">Electron
scattering does happen, I have shown in my paper that the
experimental results can be quantitatively explained on the
basis of standard physics. Indeed very funny that also the
concept of deB works in a special case (but else not).
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;line-height:106%">Counter evidence?
Assume we can perform an experiment of electron scattering
(e.g. the one of Jönsson in 1957) in a moving lab. And we
observe it from our position at rest. Then we will see that
the results based on the rules of deB are completely wrong.
- It is of course difficult to perform such experiment at
high speed and at the same time with high precision. But I
have shown that it is a simple calculation to predict this
(failing) result on the basis of deB's rules. Should I
explain it again? (It is in my paper).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;line-height:106%">Or alternatively
we have to give up the Symmetry of Space - believed
unrestrictedly since Newton. Give it up just to save de
Broglie? For no other use?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;line-height:106%">E&M waves on
the other hand are fully consistent with the standard rules
for waves. No E&M wave will disappear just because there
is an observer moving at some medium speed. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;line-height:106%">Ciao, Albrecht</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif"">Am 09.02.2016 um 20:46
schrieb
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
Albrect:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">DeB's
formuals give results in accord with empirical
observations---your claim notwithstanding. (BTW,
what are you refering to as counter evidence?) Thus,
they are useful and in this sense correct. The
story he told himself and used to derive his
formulas is, actually, immaterial insofar as he got
a useful conception and useful formulas. Stories
are a dime-a-dozen, you have some that many
consider as off-track as you appear to consider
DeB's. That matters only as "philosphy" but not as
techinical physics. Anyway, I suspect that your
deep antiaffection for this "wrong" deB wave is
grounded on the notion that this wave is a
characteristic of the particle instead of its
interaction with the rest of the universe as
described by the SED background (AKA: the 1/h h-bar
x omega of the quantized free E&M wave).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">The
stories told by conventional physicists to motivate
QM are of course just so much blather. Mostly also
inconsistent too---a capital crime for those
bragging about their rational thinking! And,
obviously, that is the push behind my efforts
leading to #7 on <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com">
www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com</a>! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">In
any case, your fixation with a fictitious wave
should be extended to all E&M waves. None of
them exist as they are described---there is no
media. Here DeB is much less the offender than
Bohr, Bell, Heisenberg, Von Neumann, and whole flock
of 2nd generation QM enthusiasts. Still, QM works.
To me that means there is a coherent story to tell
for the math, we just have to find it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">ciao,
Al<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid #C3D9E5
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
8.0pt;margin-left:7.5pt;margin-top:7.5pt;margin-right:3.75pt;margin-bottom:3.75pt;word-wrap:
break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode:
space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space"
name="quote">
<div style="margin-bottom:7.5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Gesendet:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> Dienstag,
09. Februar 2016 um 19:18 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>,
"Richard Gauthier"
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie Wave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
Al,<br>
<br>
the choice of de Broglie is not suboptimal, it
is clearly wrong. Badly wrong. The wave he has
introduced does not exist, and if it would
exist its behaviour would cause a physical
behaviour which is in conflict with
measurements (if those are comprehensively
done).<br>
<br>
I agree with you that the main object now is
to move forward. But we will not move
successfully forward if we carry millstones
with us. De Broglie's wave is a millstone. I
just had a look into a new textbook about QM,
which was highly recommended by our
university. It makes full use of de Broglie's
relation between momentum and wavelength, so
this is unfortunately not just history.<br>
<br>
But looking into the history: Bohr, Sommerfeld
and others have used the result of de Broglie
to explain quantum numbers. Particularly the
quantisation of the angular momentum on atomic
shells is explained by "standing waves" where
the wavelength is the one defined by dB. This
obviously hides the true reason of this
quantisation, but as anyone believes that the
Ansatz using de Broglie is right, nobody is
looking for the correct cause. - This is one
of the reasons for our sticking physics.<br>
<br>
Tschüss back<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Am
09.02.2016 um 14:57 schrieb
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
Albrecht:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">As
you fully know, the very same idea can
be expressed in various languages.
This is true of physics also. The
very same structure can be attached to
variuos words and images. I do not
defend deBroglie's choice of words and
images. I too find his choice
suboptimal and somewhat contrdictory.
So what? He was playing his hand at
that time with the hand he was delt at
that time. Since then, other ideas
have been found in the deck, as it
were. I find that, without changing
any of his math, one can tell a story
that is vastly less etherial and
mysterious and, depending on the
reader's depth of analysis, less
self-contradictory. I think my story
is the one DeBrogle would have told if
he had been inspired by some facits of
SED. And, some people have a greater
affinty and interest in abstract
structures, in particular when their
mathematical redintion seems to work,
that for the stories told for their
explication. This is particularly
true of all things QM. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Anyway,
the main object now (2016) is to move
forward, not critique historical
personalitites. So, I'm trying to
contribute to this discussion by
adding what I know now, and what I
have found to be useful. We are
"doing" physics, not history. Let's
make new errors, not just grind away
on the old ones!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">BTW,
to my info, both Dirac and Schrödinger
would agree that deBroglie proposed
some not too cogent arguments
regarding the nature of QM-wave
functions. Still, the best there at
that time. All the same, they too went
to their graves without having found a
satisfactory interpretation. SED
throws some new ingredients into the
mix. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Tschuss,
Al <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid
#C3D9E5 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
8.0pt;margin-left:7.5pt;margin-top:7.5pt;margin-right:3.75pt;margin-bottom:3.75pt">
<div style="margin-bottom:7.5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Gesendet:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> Dienstag,
09. Februar 2016 um 13:41 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard Gauthier"
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De
Broglie Wave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
Al,<br>
<br>
I have the impression that you
have a solution for particle
scattering which is in some way
related to the idea of de
Broglie. (I also have of course
a solution). But was this the
goal of our discussion and of my
original contribution? It was
not! My objection was de
Broglie's original idea as
stated in his thesis and as
taken over by Schrödinger and
Dirac.<br>
<br>
You have a lot of elements in
your argumentation which I do
not find in the thesis of de
Broglie. (There is e.g. nothing
at dB about SED ore background.)<br>
<br>
The essential point of our
discussion is the meaning of his
wave - and his wavelength. I
think it is very obvious from
his thesis (which you clearly
know) that his "fictitious wave"
accompanies a particle like the
electron<i> all of the time</i>.
There is no interaction
mentioned except that there is
an observer at rest who measures
the frequency of the particle.
But without influencing the
particle.<br>
<br>
Now it is normal knowledge that
a frequency and as well a
wavelength appears changed for
an observer who is in motion.
This is caused by the Doppler
effect. But the Doppler effect
will never cause that a finite
wavelength changes to Infinite
if an observer moves at some
speed unequal to c. But just
that happens to the wave
invented by de Broglie. It
follows the equation<br>
<br>
lambda = h/(m*v) where v is
the speed difference between the
particle and the observer (to
say it this time this way). And
this is in conflict to any
physics we know.<br>
<br>
Best, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Am
08.02.2016 um 17:20 schrieb
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
Albrecht:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Your
challenge is easy! In
fact my last responce
covered it. The
RELEVANT velocity is the
relative velocity
between the particle and
the slit; not that
between the
observer-particle or
observer-slit. An
observer will see all
kinds of distortions of
the events, starting
with simple persepctive
due to being at some
distance from the slit
and its registration
screen. In additon this
observer will see those
deB waves affecting the
particle (NOT from the
particle, nor from the
slit, but from the
universal background
there before either the
particle or slit came
into being) as
perspectively-relativistically
distorted (twin-clock
type distortion). BUT,
the observer will still
see the same over-all
background because the
totality of background
signals (not just those
to which this particle
is tuned), i.e., its
spectral energy density,
is itself Lorentz
invariant. That is, the
observer's motion does
not enable it to
empirically distinguish
between the background
in the various frames,
nor does the background
engender friction
forces.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">You
have got to get your
head around the idea
that deB waves are
independant of particles
whatever their frame.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Schrördinger
did toy with some
aspects that deBroglie
used, but never did
succeed in rationalizing
his eq. in those or any
other terms. For him,
when died, wave
functions were
ontologically completely
mysterious. From SED
proponents, I'm told, my
thoughts in #7 on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com">www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com</a></a>, are unique in formulating S's eq. in
terms of deB concepts.
Try it, maybe you'll
like it. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">There
are other SED-type
stories too, but as they
are based on diffusion
(parabolic, not
hyperbolic) precesses, I
find them self
contradictory.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">ciao,
Al<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#C3D9E5 1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
8.0pt;margin-left:7.5pt;margin-top:7.5pt;margin-right:3.75pt;margin-bottom:3.75pt">
<div
style="margin-bottom:7.5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Gesendet:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> Montag,
08. Februar 2016 um
141 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="genmail@a-giese.de" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard Gauthier"
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De Broglie
Wave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
Al,<br>
<br>
if you follow de
Broglie, you
should have an
explanation for
the following
experiment (here
again):<br>
<br>
Electrons move at
0.1 c towards the
double slit.
Behind the double
slit there is an
interference
pattern generated,
which in the frame
of the slit
follows the rule
of de Broglie. But
now there is an
observer also
moving at 0.1 c
parallel to the
beam of electrons.
In his frame the
electrons have
momentum=0 and so
wavelength=infinite.
That means: No
interference
pattern. But there
is in fact a
pattern which does
not disappear just
because there is
another observer.
And the moving
observer will see
the pattern. -
This is a
falsification of
de Broglie's rule.
What else?<br>
<br>
The understanding
that the de
Broglie wave is a
property of the
particle (even
though depending
on their speed,
but not on an
interaction) was
not my idea but
the one of
Schrödinger and
Dirac and many
others. Also by de
Broglie himself.<br>
<br>
Ciao Albrecht<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Am
08.02.2016 um
03:30 schrieb
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
Albrecht:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">BUT,
the laws of
Physics for
"being" in a
frame are not
the laws for
interacting
between
frames! The
deB. wave is
not a feature
of a particle
in its own
frame, but a
feature of the
interaction of
such a
particle with
at least one
other particle
in another
frame. When
the two frames
are moving
with respect
to each other,
then the
features of
the
interaction
cannot be
Lorentz
invariants.
When one
particle is
interacting
with another
particle (or
ensemble---slit
say) the
relevant
physics is
determined by
the deB wave
in that
sitation,
whatever it
looks like to
an observer in
a third frame
with yet
different
relative
velocities.
It is a
perspective
effect: a tree
is the same
ontological
size in fact
no matter how
small it
appears to
distant
observers.
Observed
diminished
size(s) cannot
be "invriant."
Appearances
=/= ,,so
sein''.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">You
have gotten
your head
stuck on the
idea that deB.
waves are
characteristics
intrinsic to
particles in
an of
themselves.
Recalibrate!
DeB waves are
charactteristics
of the mutual
interaction of
particles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Best,
Al<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#C3D9E5
1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
8.0pt;margin-left:7.5pt;margin-top:7.5pt;margin-right:3.75pt;margin-bottom:3.75pt">
<div
style="margin-bottom:7.5pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Gesendet:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> Sonntag,
07. Februar
2016 um 22:10
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard
Gauthier"
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
Al,<br>
<br>
at one of your
points I
really
disagree. The
physical laws
have to be
fulfilled in
every frame.
That means
that all
physical
processes have
to obey the
same laws in
all frames. So
also the
process at the
double slit.
But the rule
given by de
Broglie looks
correct in
only one
frame, that is
the frame
where the
double slit is
at rest. For
an observer in
motion the
diffraction
pattern looks
very similar
as for the
observer at
rest, but for
the observer
in motion the
results
according to
de Broglie are
completely
different,
because the
momentum of
the particle
is different
in a wide
range in the
frame of a
moving
observer and
so is the
wavelength
assigned to
the particle.<br>
<br>
The specific
case: At
electron
scattering,
the observer
co-moving with
the electron
will see a
similar
pattern as the
observer at
rest, but de
Broglie says
that for this
observer there
does not exist
any pattern.
That is
strongly
incorrect.<br>
<br>
The
Schrödinger
equation and
also the Dirac
function
should have
correct
results in
different
frames, at
least at
non-relativistic
speeds. This
requirement is
clearly
violated
through their
use of de
Broglie's
rule.<br>
<br>
Grüße<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
PS: Your
article refers
to "Stochastic
Electrodynamics".
That is in my
knowledge not
standard
physics and so
a new
assumption.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Am
07.02.2016 um
19:03 schrieb
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
Albrecht:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">In
my view the
story in my
paper has no
new
assunptions,
rather new
words for old
assumptions.
As I, along
with most
others, see
it, there is
no conflict
with
experiment,
but a less
than fully
transparent
explantion for
experimental
observations
(particle beam
diffrction)
otherwise
unexplained.
At the time
of writing,
and nowadays
too (although
I'd to think
that my paper
rationalizes
DeB's story)
it was the
most widely
accepted story
for this
phenomna. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">The
only entities
that logically
need to be
Lorentz
invariant are
the particle.
I the deB
wave is not a
'Bestandteil'
of the
particle, but
of its
relations with
its
envionment,
then
invariance is
not defined
nor useful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">M.f.G.
Al<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#C3D9E5
1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
8.0pt;margin-left:7.5pt;margin-top:7.5pt;margin-right:3.75pt;margin-bottom:3.75pt">
<div
style="margin-bottom:7.5pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Gesendet:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> Sonntag,
07. Februar
2016 um 14:39
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard
Gauthier"
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
Al,<br>
<br>
thank you for
your
reference.
Your paper has
a lot of
intelligent
thoughts but
also a lot of
additional
assumptions.
With reference
to the de
Broglie wave,
I think, is
the situation
much simpler
on the level
of
conservative
knowledge. De
Broglie has
misunderstood
relativity
(particularly
dilation) and
so seen a
conflict which
does in fact
not exist. He
has solved the
conflict by
inventing an
additional
"fictitious"
wave which has
no other
foundation in
physics, and
also his
"theorem of
harmonic
phases" which
as well is an
invention
without need.
And his result
is in conflict
with the
experiment if
we ask for
Lorentz
invariance or
even for
Galilean
invariance. -
If we follow
the basic idea
of de Broglie
by, however,
avoiding his
logical error
about
relativity, we
come easily to
a description
of matter
waves without
logical
conflicts.
This does not
need new
philosophy or
other effort
at this level.<br>
<br>
Best, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Am
06.02.2016 um
03:15 schrieb
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
Albrecht:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">DeBroglie's
verbage is
indeed quite
rococo!
Nonetheless,
his
machinations,
although
verbalized, in
the true
tradtion of
quantum
mechanics,
mysteriously,
can be
reinterpreted
(i.e.,
alternate
verbage found
without
changing any
of the math)
so as to tell
a fully, if
(somewhat)
hetrodoxical,
story. See
#11 on
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com">www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com</a></a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">cc:
Waves are
never a
characteristic
of a single,
point-like
entity, but
colletive
motion of a
medium. IF
they exist at
all. My view
is that
E&M waves
are a fiction
wrought by
Fourier
analysis. The
only real
physical part
is an
"interaction",
which mnight
as well be
thought of an
absract string
between
charges.
Also,
neutrons have
electric
multipole
moments; i.e.,
they are
totally
neutral but
not
charge-free. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Best,
Al <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#C3D9E5
1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
8.0pt;margin-left:7.5pt;margin-top:7.5pt;margin-right:3.75pt;margin-bottom:3.75pt">
<div
style="margin-bottom:7.5pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Gesendet:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> Freitag,
05. Februar
2016 um 21:43
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>,
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
Al,<br>
<br>
true, in the
frame of the
particle the
dB wavelength
is infinite.
Because in its
own frame the
momentum of
the particle
is 0. The
particle
oscillates
with the
frequency of
the particle's
Zitterbewegung
(which
background
fields do you
have in mind?
De Brogie does
not mention
them). This
oscillation is
in no
contradiction
with this
wavelength as
the phase
speed is also
infinite. For
the
imagination,
the latter
means that all
points of that
wave oscillate
with the same
phase at any
point.<br>
<br>
Which
background
waves do you
have in mind?
What is the
CNONOICAL
momentum? And
what about
E&M
interactions?
De Broglie has
not related
his wave to a
specific
field. An
E&M field
would anyway
have no effect
in the case of
neutron
scattering for
which the same
de Broglie
formalism is
used. And into
which frame do
you see the
wave
Lorentz-transformed?<br>
<br>
So, an
electron in
his frame has
an infinite
wavelength and
in his frame
has the double
slit moving
towards the
particle. How
can an
interference
at the slits
occur? No
interference
can happen
under these
conditions.
But, as I have
explained in
the paper, the
normal wave
which
accompanies
the electron
by normal
rules (i.e.
phase speed =
c) will have
an
interference
with its own
reflection,
which has then
a wavelength
which fits to
the
expectation of
de Broglie.
But that is a
very local
event (in a
range of
approx. 10^-12
m for the
electron) and
it is not at
all a property
of the
electron as de
Broglie has
thought.<br>
<br>
To say it
again: The de
Broglie
wavelength
cannot be a
steady
property of
the particle.
But
Schrödinger
and Dirac have
incorporated
it into their
QM equations
with this
understanding.<br>
<br>
If I should
have
misunderstood
you, please
show the
mathematical
calculations
which you
mean.<br>
<br>
Ciao, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Am
05.02.2016 um
19:20 schrieb
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi:
Albrecht:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Your
arguments
don't resonate
with me. The
deB' wave
length is
infinite in
the particles
frame: it is
the standing
wave formed by
the inpinging
background
waves having a
freq. = the
particle's
Zitterbewegung.
If these TWO
waves are each
Lorentz
x-formed to
another frame
and added
there, they
exhibit
exactly the
DeB'
modulation
wavelength
proportional
to the
particle's
momentum. The
only
mysterious
feature then
is that the
proportionality
is to the
CNONICAL
momentum,
i.e.,
including the
vector
potential of
whatever
exterior
E&M
interactions
are in-coming.
Nevertheless,
everything
works our
without
contradiction.
A particle
oscillates in
place at its
Zitter freq.
while the
Zitter signals
are modulated
by the DeB'
wavelength as
they move
through slits,
say.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">ciao,
L<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#C3D9E5
1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
8.0pt;margin-left:7.5pt;margin-top:7.5pt;margin-right:3.75pt;margin-bottom:3.75pt">
<div
style="margin-bottom:7.5pt">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Gesendet:</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> Freitag,
05. Februar
2016 um 12:28
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a>,
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white">
<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
Richard and
Al, hi All,<br>
<br>
recently we
had a
discussion
here about two
topics:<br>
<br>
1. The
functionality
of the de
Broglie wave,
particularly
its wavelength<br>
if seen from a
different
inertial
system. Such
cases lead to
illogical<br>
situations.<br>
2. The problem
of the
apparent
asymmetry at
relativistic
dilation.<br>
<br>
I have
investigated
these cases
and found that
they are in
some way<br>
connected.
Relativistic
dilation is
not as simple
as it is
normally<br>
taken. It
looks
asymmetric if
it is
incorrectly
treated. An
asymmetry<br>
would falsify
Special
Relativity.
But it is in
fact
symmetrical if<br>
properly
handled and
understood.<br>
<br>
It is funny
that both
problems are
connected to
each other
through the<br>
fact that de
Broglie
himself has
misinterpreted
dilation. From
this<br>
incorrect
understanding
he did not
find another
way out than
to invent<br>
his "theorem
of phase
harmony"; with
all logical
conflicts
resulting<br>
from this
approach.<br>
<br>
If relativity
is properly
understood,
the problem
seen by de
Broglie<br>
does not
exist.
Equations
regarding
matter waves
can be derived
which<br>
work properly,
i.e. conform
to the
experiments
but avoid the
logical<br>
conflicts.<br>
<br>
As announced,
I have
composed a
paper about
this. It can
be found at:<br>
<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength">https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength</a></a><br>
.<br>
<br>
I thank
Richard
Gauthier for
the discussion
which we had
about this<br>
topic. It
caused me to
investigate
the problem
and to find a
solution.<br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:13.5pt">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#41424E">Diese
E-Mail wurde
von einem
virenfreien
Computer
gesendet, der
von Avast
geschützt
wird.<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.avast.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.avast.com">www.avast.com</a></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable"
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#AAABB6 1.0pt" border="1"
cellpadding="0" cellspacing="3">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
style="width:352.5pt;border:none;padding:15.0pt
.75pt .75pt .75pt"
width="588">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:13.5pt">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#41424E">Diese
E-Mail wurde von einem
virenfreien Computer
gesendet, der von Avast
geschützt wird.<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email" target="_blank"><span
style="color:#4453EA"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.avast.com">www.avast.com</a></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable"
style="border:none;border-top:solid #AAABB6
1.0pt" border="1" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="3">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
style="width:352.5pt;border:none;padding:15.0pt
.75pt .75pt .75pt" width="588">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:13.5pt">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#41424E">Diese
E-Mail wurde von einem virenfreien
Computer gesendet, der von Avast
geschützt wird.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:#4453EA">www.avast.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable"
style="border:none;border-top:solid #AAABB6 1.0pt" border="1"
cellpadding="0" cellspacing="3">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="width:352.5pt;border:none;padding:15.0pt .75pt
.75pt .75pt" width="588">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:13.5pt">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#41424E">Diese
E-Mail wurde von einem virenfreien Computer
gesendet, der von Avast geschützt wird.
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email"
target="_blank"><span style="color:#4453EA">www.avast.com</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br />
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #aaabb6;">
<tr>
<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 20px; color: #41424e; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">Diese E-Mail wurde von einem virenfreien Computer gesendet, der von Avast geschützt wird. <br /><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email" target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a> </td>
</tr>
</table>
</body>
</html>