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Hi Al,<br>
<br>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p class="MsoNormal"><big><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">You say “<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"></span></span></big><big><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US"><span
style="mso-spacerun:yes">DeB's formuals give results in
accord with empirical observations </span>“.<o:p></o:p></span></big></p>
<big>
</big>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">I am very surprised
about this repeated statement. I think our past discussion has
shown that the
concept of de Broglie is completely wrong – except his
statement that there exist
matter waves. He has postulated a wave which in fact does not
exist and which
does not have any foundation in physics. It has a wavelength
which – by his
rule – disappears when an observer moves at some medium speed.
<o:p></o:p></span></big></p>
<big>
</big>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Electron
scattering does happen, I have shown in my paper that the
experimental results can be quantitatively
explained on the basis of standard physics. Indeed very funny
that also the
concept of deB works in a special case (but else not). <br>
</span></big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>Counter evidence? Assume we can perform an
experiment of electron scattering (e.g. the one of Jönsson in
1957) in a moving lab. And we observe it from our position at
rest. Then we will see that the results based on the rules of
deB are completely wrong. - It is of course difficult to perform
such experiment at high speed and at the same time with high
precision. But I have shown that it is a simple calculation to
predict this (failing) result on the basis of deB's rules.
Should I explain it again? (It is in my paper).<br>
</big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>Or alternatively we have to give up the
Symmetry of Space - believed unrestrictedly since Newton. Give
it up just to save de Broglie? For no other use?<br>
</big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>E&M waves on the other hand are fully
consistent with the standard rules for waves. No E&M wave
will disappear just because there is an observer moving at some
medium speed. <br>
</big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>Ciao, Albrecht</big><br>
</p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 09.02.2016 um 20:46 schrieb
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:trinity-b5bd4f1e-d426-4b94-ad50-4f8bc57fedb3-1455047192413@3capp-webde-bap50"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrect:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>DeB's formuals give results in accord with empirical
observations---your claim notwithstanding. (BTW, what are
you refering to as counter evidence?) Thus, they are useful
and in this sense correct. The story he told himself and
used to derive his formulas is, actually, immaterial insofar
as he got a useful conception and useful formulas. Stories
are a dime-a-dozen, you have some that many consider as
off-track as you appear to consider DeB's. That matters
only as "philosphy" but not as techinical physics. Anyway,
I suspect that your deep antiaffection for this "wrong" deB
wave is grounded on the notion that this wave is a
characteristic of the particle instead of its interaction
with the rest of the universe as described by the SED
background (AKA: the 1/h h-bar x omega of the quantized free
E&M wave).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The stories told by conventional physicists to motivate
QM are of course just so much blather. Mostly also
inconsistent too---a capital crime for those bragging about
their rational thinking! And, obviously, that is the push
behind my efforts leading to #7 on
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com">www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com</a>! </div>
<div> </div>
<div>In any case, your fixation with a fictitious wave should
be extended to all E&M waves. None of them exist as
they are described---there is no media. Here DeB is much
less the offender than Bohr, Bell, Heisenberg, Von Neumann,
and whole flock of 2nd generation QM enthusiasts. Still, QM
works. To me that means there is a coherent story to tell
for the math, we just have to find it.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, Al</div>
<div>
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding:
10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5;
word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag,
09. Februar 2016 um 19:18 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>,
"Richard Gauthier" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie Wave</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
the choice of de Broglie is not suboptimal, it is
clearly wrong. Badly wrong. The wave he has introduced
does not exist, and if it would exist its behaviour
would cause a physical behaviour which is in conflict
with measurements (if those are comprehensively done).<br>
<br>
I agree with you that the main object now is to move
forward. But we will not move successfully forward if
we carry millstones with us. De Broglie's wave is a
millstone. I just had a look into a new textbook about
QM, which was highly recommended by our university. It
makes full use of de Broglie's relation between
momentum and wavelength, so this is unfortunately not
just history.<br>
<br>
But looking into the history: Bohr, Sommerfeld and
others have used the result of de Broglie to explain
quantum numbers. Particularly the quantisation of the
angular momentum on atomic shells is explained by
"standing waves" where the wavelength is the one
defined by dB. This obviously hides the true reason of
this quantisation, but as anyone believes that the
Ansatz using de Broglie is right, nobody is looking
for the correct cause. - This is one of the reasons
for our sticking physics.<br>
<br>
Tschüss back<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 09.02.2016 um 14:57
schrieb <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de" target="_parent">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>As you fully know, the very same idea can
be expressed in various languages. This is
true of physics also. The very same structure
can be attached to variuos words and images.
I do not defend deBroglie's choice of words
and images. I too find his choice suboptimal
and somewhat contrdictory. So what? He was
playing his hand at that time with the hand he
was delt at that time. Since then, other
ideas have been found in the deck, as it were.
I find that, without changing any of his
math, one can tell a story that is vastly less
etherial and mysterious and, depending on the
reader's depth of analysis, less
self-contradictory. I think my story is the
one DeBrogle would have told if he had been
inspired by some facits of SED. And, some
people have a greater affinty and interest in
abstract structures, in particular when their
mathematical redintion seems to work, that for
the stories told for their explication. This
is particularly true of all things QM. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Anyway, the main object now (2016) is to
move forward, not critique historical
personalitites. So, I'm trying to contribute
to this discussion by adding what I know now,
and what I have found to be useful. We are
"doing" physics, not history. Let's make new
errors, not just grind away on the old ones!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>BTW, to my info, both Dirac and Schrödinger
would agree that deBroglie proposed some not
too cogent arguments regarding the nature of
QM-wave functions. Still, the best there at
that time. All the same, they too went to
their graves without having found a
satisfactory interpretation. SED throws some
new ingredients into the mix. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Tschuss, Al </div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px
10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid
rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag,
09. Februar 2016 um 13:41 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="genmail@a-giese.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>,
"Richard Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie
Wave</div>
<div>
<div style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
I have the impression that you have a
solution for particle scattering which
is in some way related to the idea of de
Broglie. (I also have of course a
solution). But was this the goal of our
discussion and of my original
contribution? It was not! My objection
was de Broglie's original idea as stated
in his thesis and as taken over by
Schrödinger and Dirac.<br>
<br>
You have a lot of elements in your
argumentation which I do not find in the
thesis of de Broglie. (There is e.g.
nothing at dB about SED ore background.)<br>
<br>
The essential point of our discussion is
the meaning of his wave - and his
wavelength. I think it is very obvious
from his thesis (which you clearly know)
that his "fictitious wave" accompanies a
particle like the electron<i> all of the
time</i>. There is no interaction
mentioned except that there is an
observer at rest who measures the
frequency of the particle. But without
influencing the particle.<br>
<br>
Now it is normal knowledge that a
frequency and as well a wavelength
appears changed for an observer who is
in motion. This is caused by the Doppler
effect. But the Doppler effect will
never cause that a finite wavelength
changes to Infinite if an observer moves
at some speed unequal to c. But just
that happens to the wave invented by de
Broglie. It follows the equation<br>
<br>
lambda = h/(m*v) where v is the speed
difference between the particle and the
observer (to say it this time this way).
And this is in conflict to any physics
we know.<br>
<br>
Best, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
08.02.2016 um 17:20 schrieb <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Your challenge is easy! In
fact my last responce covered
it. The RELEVANT velocity is
the relative velocity between
the particle and the slit; not
that between the
observer-particle or
observer-slit. An observer
will see all kinds of
distortions of the events,
starting with simple persepctive
due to being at some distance
from the slit and its
registration screen. In additon
this observer will see those deB
waves affecting the particle
(NOT from the particle, nor from
the slit, but from the universal
background there before either
the particle or slit came into
being) as
perspectively-relativistically
distorted (twin-clock type
distortion). BUT, the observer
will still see the same over-all
background because the totality
of background signals (not just
those to which this particle is
tuned), i.e., its spectral
energy density, is itself
Lorentz invariant. That is, the
observer's motion does not
enable it to empirically
distinguish between the
background in the various
frames, nor does the background
engender friction forces.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You have got to get your head
around the idea that deB waves
are independant of particles
whatever their frame.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Schrördinger did toy with
some aspects that deBroglie
used, but never did succeed in
rationalizing his eq. in those
or any other terms. For him,
when died, wave functions were
ontologically completely
mysterious. From SED
proponents, I'm told, my
thoughts in #7 on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com">www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com</a></a>,
are unique in formulating S's
eq. in terms of deB concepts.
Try it, maybe you'll like it. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>There are other SED-type
stories too, but as they are
based on diffusion (parabolic,
not hyperbolic) precesses, I
find them self contradictory.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, Al</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px
5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0
10.0px 10.0px;border-left:
2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px
0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Montag,
08. Februar 2016 um 141 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese"
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="genmail@a-giese.de"
target="_parent"><genmail@a-giese.de></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
if you follow de Broglie,
you should have an
explanation for the
following experiment (here
again):<br>
<br>
Electrons move at 0.1 c
towards the double slit.
Behind the double slit
there is an interference
pattern generated, which
in the frame of the slit
follows the rule of de
Broglie. But now there is
an observer also moving at
0.1 c parallel to the beam
of electrons. In his frame
the electrons have
momentum=0 and so
wavelength=infinite. That
means: No interference
pattern. But there is in
fact a pattern which does
not disappear just because
there is another observer.
And the moving observer
will see the pattern. -
This is a falsification of
de Broglie's rule. What
else?<br>
<br>
The understanding that the
de Broglie wave is a
property of the particle
(even though depending on
their speed, but not on an
interaction) was not my
idea but the one of
Schrödinger and Dirac and
many others. Also by de
Broglie himself.<br>
<br>
Ciao Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
08.02.2016 um 03:30
schrieb <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>BUT, the laws
of Physics for
"being" in a frame
are not the laws
for interacting
between frames!
The deB. wave is
not a feature of a
particle in its
own frame, but a
feature of the
interaction of
such a particle
with at least one
other particle in
another frame.
When the two
frames are moving
with respect to
each other, then
the features of
the interaction
cannot be Lorentz
invariants. When
one particle is
interacting with
another particle
(or
ensemble---slit
say) the relevant
physics is
determined by the
deB wave in that
sitation, whatever
it looks like to
an observer in a
third frame with
yet different
relative
velocities. It is
a perspective
effect: a tree is
the same
ontological size
in fact no matter
how small it
appears to distant
observers.
Observed
diminished size(s)
cannot be
"invriant."
Appearances =/=
,,so sein''.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You have gotten
your head stuck on
the idea that deB.
waves are
characteristics
intrinsic to
particles in an of
themselves.
Recalibrate! DeB
waves are
charactteristics
of the mutual
interaction of
particles.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best, Al</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:
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rgb(195,217,229);">
<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
07. Februar
2016 um 22:10
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
at one of your
points I
really
disagree. The
physical laws
have to be
fulfilled in
every frame.
That means
that all
physical
processes have
to obey the
same laws in
all frames. So
also the
process at the
double slit.
But the rule
given by de
Broglie looks
correct in
only one
frame, that is
the frame
where the
double slit is
at rest. For
an observer in
motion the
diffraction
pattern looks
very similar
as for the
observer at
rest, but for
the observer
in motion the
results
according to
de Broglie are
completely
different,
because the
momentum of
the particle
is different
in a wide
range in the
frame of a
moving
observer and
so is the
wavelength
assigned to
the particle.<br>
<br>
The specific
case: At
electron
scattering,
the observer
co-moving with
the electron
will see a
similar
pattern as the
observer at
rest, but de
Broglie says
that for this
observer there
does not exist
any pattern.
That is
strongly
incorrect.<br>
<br>
The
Schrödinger
equation and
also the Dirac
function
should have
correct
results in
different
frames, at
least at
non-relativistic
speeds. This
requirement is
clearly
violated
through their
use of de
Broglie's
rule.<br>
<br>
Grüße<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
PS: Your
article refers
to "Stochastic
Electrodynamics".
That is in my
knowledge not
standard
physics and so
a new
assumption.<br>
<br>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
07.02.2016 um
19:03 schrieb
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div
style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi
Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In my
view the story
in my paper
has no new
assunptions,
rather new
words for old
assumptions.
As I, along
with most
others, see
it, there is
no conflict
with
experiment,
but a less
than fully
transparent
explantion for
experimental
observations
(particle beam
diffrction)
otherwise
unexplained.
At the time
of writing,
and nowadays
too (although
I'd to think
that my paper
rationalizes
DeB's story)
it was the
most widely
accepted story
for this
phenomna. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The only
entities that
logically need
to be Lorentz
invariant are
the particle.
I the deB
wave is not a
'Bestandteil'
of the
particle, but
of its
relations with
its
envionment,
then
invariance is
not defined
nor useful.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>M.f.G.
Al</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:
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5.0px
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2.0px solid
rgb(195,217,229);">
<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
07. Februar
2016 um 14:39
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="genmail@a-giese.de" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
thank you for
your
reference.
Your paper has
a lot of
intelligent
thoughts but
also a lot of
additional
assumptions.
With reference
to the de
Broglie wave,
I think, is
the situation
much simpler
on the level
of
conservative
knowledge. De
Broglie has
misunderstood
relativity
(particularly
dilation) and
so seen a
conflict which
does in fact
not exist. He
has solved the
conflict by
inventing an
additional
"fictitious"
wave which has
no other
foundation in
physics, and
also his
"theorem of
harmonic
phases" which
as well is an
invention
without need.
And his result
is in conflict
with the
experiment if
we ask for
Lorentz
invariance or
even for
Galilean
invariance. -
If we follow
the basic idea
of de Broglie
by, however,
avoiding his
logical error
about
relativity, we
come easily to
a description
of matter
waves without
logical
conflicts.
This does not
need new
philosophy or
other effort
at this level.<br>
<br>
Best, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
06.02.2016 um
03:15 schrieb
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div
style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi
Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>DeBroglie's
verbage is
indeed quite
rococo!
Nonetheless,
his
machinations,
although
verbalized, in
the true
tradtion of
quantum
mechanics,
mysteriously,
can be
reinterpreted
(i.e.,
alternate
verbage found
without
changing any
of the math)
so as to tell
a fully, if
(somewhat)
hetrodoxical,
story. See
#11 on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com">www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com</a></a>.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>cc:
Waves are
never a
characteristic
of a single,
point-like
entity, but
colletive
motion of a
medium. IF
they exist at
all. My view
is that
E&M waves
are a fiction
wrought by
Fourier
analysis. The
only real
physical part
is an
"interaction",
which mnight
as well be
thought of an
absract string
between
charges.
Also,
neutrons have
electric
multipole
moments; i.e.,
they are
totally
neutral but
not
charge-free. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best,
Al </div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:
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5.0px
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2.0px solid
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<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,
05. Februar
2016 um 21:43
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="genmail@a-giese.de" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
true, in the
frame of the
particle the
dB wavelength
is infinite.
Because in its
own frame the
momentum of
the particle
is 0. The
particle
oscillates
with the
frequency of
the particle's
Zitterbewegung
(which
background
fields do you
have in mind?
De Brogie does
not mention
them). This
oscillation is
in no
contradiction
with this
wavelength as
the phase
speed is also
infinite. For
the
imagination,
the latter
means that all
points of that
wave oscillate
with the same
phase at any
point.<br>
<br>
Which
background
waves do you
have in mind?
What is the
CNONOICAL
momentum? And
what about
E&M
interactions?
De Broglie has
not related
his wave to a
specific
field. An
E&M field
would anyway
have no effect
in the case of
neutron
scattering for
which the same
de Broglie
formalism is
used. And into
which frame do
you see the
wave
Lorentz-transformed?<br>
<br>
So, an
electron in
his frame has
an infinite
wavelength and
in his frame
has the double
slit moving
towards the
particle. How
can an
interference
at the slits
occur? No
interference
can happen
under these
conditions.
But, as I have
explained in
the paper, the
normal wave
which
accompanies
the electron
by normal
rules (i.e.
phase speed =
c) will have
an
interference
with its own
reflection,
which has then
a wavelength
which fits to
the
expectation of
de Broglie.
But that is a
very local
event (in a
range of
approx. 10^-12
m for the
electron) and
it is not at
all a property
of the
electron as de
Broglie has
thought.<br>
<br>
To say it
again: The de
Broglie
wavelength
cannot be a
steady
property of
the particle.
But
Schrödinger
and Dirac have
incorporated
it into their
QM equations
with this
understanding.<br>
<br>
If I should
have
misunderstood
you, please
show the
mathematical
calculations
which you
mean.<br>
<br>
Ciao, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
05.02.2016 um
19:20 schrieb
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div
style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi:
Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Your
arguments
don't resonate
with me. The
deB' wave
length is
infinite in
the particles
frame: it is
the standing
wave formed by
the inpinging
background
waves having a
freq. = the
particle's
Zitterbewegung.
If these TWO
waves are each
Lorentz
x-formed to
another frame
and added
there, they
exhibit
exactly the
DeB'
modulation
wavelength
proportional
to the
particle's
momentum. The
only
mysterious
feature then
is that the
proportionality
is to the
CNONICAL
momentum,
i.e.,
including the
vector
potential of
whatever
exterior
E&M
interactions
are in-coming.
Nevertheless,
everything
works our
without
contradiction.
A particle
oscillates in
place at its
Zitter freq.
while the
Zitter signals
are modulated
by the DeB'
wavelength as
they move
through slits,
say.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, L</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:
10.0px 5.0px
5.0px
10.0px;padding:
10.0px 0
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10.0px;border-left:
2.0px solid
rgb(195,217,229);">
<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,
05. Februar
2016 um 12:28
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="genmail@a-giese.de" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Richard
Gauthier" <a
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href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a>, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>Hi
Richard and
Al, hi All,<br>
<br>
recently we
had a
discussion
here about two
topics:<br>
<br>
1. The
functionality
of the de
Broglie wave,
particularly
its wavelength<br>
if seen from a
different
inertial
system. Such
cases lead to
illogical<br>
situations.<br>
2. The problem
of the
apparent
asymmetry at
relativistic
dilation.<br>
<br>
I have
investigated
these cases
and found that
they are in
some way<br>
connected.
Relativistic
dilation is
not as simple
as it is
normally<br>
taken. It
looks
asymmetric if
it is
incorrectly
treated. An
asymmetry<br>
would falsify
Special
Relativity.
But it is in
fact
symmetrical if<br>
properly
handled and
understood.<br>
<br>
It is funny
that both
problems are
connected to
each other
through the<br>
fact that de
Broglie
himself has
misinterpreted
dilation. From
this<br>
incorrect
understanding
he did not
find another
way out than
to invent<br>
his "theorem
of phase
harmony"; with
all logical
conflicts
resulting<br>
from this
approach.<br>
<br>
If relativity
is properly
understood,
the problem
seen by de
Broglie<br>
does not
exist.
Equations
regarding
matter waves
can be derived
which<br>
work properly,
i.e. conform
to the
experiments
but avoid the
logical<br>
conflicts.<br>
<br>
As announced,
I have
composed a
paper about
this. It can
be found at:<br>
<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength">https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength</a></a><br>
.<br>
<br>
I thank
Richard
Gauthier for
the discussion
which we had
about this<br>
topic. It
caused me to
investigate
the problem
and to find a
solution.<br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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