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Al;<br>
<br>
This sounds like if it acts like a single particle whether we
idealize it as a point or as a single coherent wave does not matter
it works.<br>
That stops a lot of further discussion and speculation regarding the
interior of those particles.<br>
However does not String Theory and Albrecht's efforts precisely
attempt to ask further questions about the internal structure?<br>
Could such speculation not lead to understanding mechanisms that go
beyond the point particle approximation by asking why does this
approximation work?<br>
<br>
For example Lande's Quantization ( see Quantum Mechanics in a New
Key or<small><span class="fn"><span dir="ltr"> Foundations of
Quantum Theory</span></span>: <span class="subtitle"><span
dir="ltr">A Study in Continuity and Symmetry</span></span></small><big><big><big>)</big></big></big>
rules explain all wave properties an quantum transition in terms of
internal structure of finite particles. If the finite particle has
certain symmetries expressed by dx the it can only exchange
momentum dp<small><small>x</small></small> , in quantized steps so
that dp<small><small>x</small></small>= h/dx.<br>
This formulation requires no waves at all
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.pnas.org/content/9/5/158">http://www.pnas.org/content/9/5/158</a>) it was successfully used to
explain Bragg diffraction in the 30's.<br>
<br>
best, wolf<br>
Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/11/2016 5:46 PM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:trinity-2997f3a3-eb0c-483f-9661-34f04dc233f7-1455241584128@3capp-webde-bs28"
type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Wolfgang:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I would say that the "divide it up" argument is a
variation of Albrecht's error. He is fixsated on the
conception that the deB "wave" is an intrinsic property of
the particle in stead of a characterization of its
interaction with other particles (a subtilty that deB
himself only passivly/subconsciulsy incorporated in his
understanding and therefore did not feature in his
story---it is however impicit when he assigns momentum).
Specifically, if "the" particle is conceptually divided up
but held together in such a way that its reaction to its
enviorment (exterior forces), is characterizable as if the
totality of the pieces respond identically in unison, then
the total of the pieces is "a" single entity with a single
interaction, as so with a single deB wave length. If the
dividen or fractional portion respond separately and
independantly to the envoronment, then each gets it own deB
wave. This has all been empirically observed in experiments
which diffact beams of Buckky-ball assemblies of molecules:
a beam of balls has its own deB wave different from a beam
of the constuent molecules. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, Al</div>
<div>
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding:
10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5;
word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Donnerstag,
11. Februar 2016 um 21:09 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Wolfgang Baer" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com"><wolf@nascentinc.com></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie Wave</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);">Al and
Albrecht:<br>
you are having an interesting discussion and I would
like to ask a question that has always bothered me
regarding the assignment of wavelength using Einstein
and deBroglie.<br>
<br>
The normal calculation assume the mass of a finite
size body is concentrated at a point.<br>
The mass is equated to energy which is then converted
to a wave of a specific frequency<br>
m c^2 / h = f<br>
<br>
However the point particles are an approximation and
the mass is spread out<br>
If I divide a point mass into a million small spread
out pieces ( dv/V = 1/ million) I would calculate a
much lower frequency for each piece<br>
m*dV* c^2 / h*V = f *dV/V<br>
in the limit dV=>0 the frequency goes to zero. This
means an actual finite sized particle would be more
correctly described by a frequency density of very low
frequencies and long wavelengths.<br>
<br>
So should we assign half the frequency to a particle
described by Albrechts 2 rotating particle model.<br>
<br>
How can any of these calculations be justified when
the point particle idealization is eliminated.<br>
Or do we just say " shut up and calculate" it works.<br>
<br>
wolf<br>
<pre class="moz-signature">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="wolf@NascentInc.com" target="_parent">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/11/2016 11:19 AM, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrectht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Another round! We are doing Physics. As
such, we don't care about stories. We care
more about formulas. DeB's formulas have been
verified empirically beyound doubt (when used
correctly as he did, you'r not!). His story
is another matter; it was cooked up when he
was faced with sparce empirical info and vague
theory. By virtue of inspired imagination he
found some words and images that helped him
find his formulas. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>His story is not religion: infalible fabel
in a holy book; it is just a story for what it
is good for. Nowadays most of us find his
story unclear and fragmented. I did while
trying to understand QM; so, I struggled until
I found a new story. I think it is much
superior to his, therefore in discussing deB.
waves I use my story. All it does is relate
the fancyful images and notions used by deB to
concepts closer to classical Physics. My
srory is fully compatible with deB's story in
that no different formulas come from it, but
it does not strain one's credulity as do the
quantum ideas of his age. While deB doesn't
use the word "interaction" he is talking about
E&M waves (which I hold do not exist as
ontological entities<span>, even while charges
INTERACT, however they do it.)</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Regarding the experiment. The pattern
recorded behind the slit is fully independant
of whatever any passing observer does. It is
printed on the screen, for once and for all.
Observers looking at that pattern from frames
other than that of the slit will see it in
optical and relativistic perspcetive, just
like the trees out your window appear smaller
than when standing next to them---no mystery
here! DeB's story takes all this for granted.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>As for Schröedinger's use of deB' waves,
see #7 on my web page (<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com">www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com</a></a>)!
There the deB-wave notion is used to relate
Schröedonger's eq. to Liouville eq. from
statistics. It all hangs together. My story
removes much mystical gush from QM but is, as
it is at the moment, not complete insofar as
the hypothetical input on which is it based is
a divergent quantity. Somewhere there is a
story about that quantitiy (present in
classical E&M and QED too) that will
resolve this Schönheitsfehler.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, Al</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px
10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid
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<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Donnerstag,
11. Februar 2016 um 18:12 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="genmail@a-giese.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>,
"Richard Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] De Broglie
Wave</div>
<div>
<div style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);"><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><small>Hi
Al,<br>
<br>
your are right that we are sticking
in a circle. But we can see the
point.<br>
<br>
If I look into the paper of de
Broglie again (your translation),
there is nothing of an interaction.
DeB argues about the wave which
accompanies the particle. And for a
particle of a certain speed this is
a property of the particle (in
relation to some frame) but nothing
about an interaction. Or where do
you see in his text an interaction
mentioned?<br>
<br>
If we Lorentz-transform the
interference pattern of an electron
to the frame of a moving observer,
there will be a change, you may call
it distortion. But the change of the
de Broglie wavelength in relation to
a moving observer is a complete
different category. I have given a
numerical example: If an electron
moves at 0.1 c and an observer moves
as well at 0.1 c into the same
direction towards the double slit,
the Lorentz transformation of the
pattern into the frame of this
observer will have a length change
of < 0.1%. But the change of the
de Broglie wavelength is in this
case from some finite lambda to <i>infinite</i>.
Not the same, I would say.<br>
<br>
And again a look into the use in the
Schrödinger equation. The temporal
part of this equation uses the law
E = h*frequency. That frequency is a
property of the free moving
particle. And it can be correctly
Lorentz-transformed into any other
frame. Schrödinger has then used the
de Broglie relation lambda = h/p
with the same understanding
(otherwise his equation would be
internally conflicting). So he also
in this part describes a free moving
particle. But a
Lorentz-transformation will </small></font><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><small>terribly
</small></font><font face="Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif"><small>fail </small></font><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><small>in
this case.<br>
<br>
Again: Where do you see in the text
of de Broglie a relation to an
interaction?<br>
<br>
Best, Albrecht</small></font><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
10.02.2016 um 19:41 schrieb <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You are locked in a
"do-loop." Appropos the
experiment metioned below
(Jönssen), you are discussing
your misunderstaning not
deBroglie's or mine. The deB
wave that matters is not that
between the particle-observer or
slit (crystal)-observer, but the
particle-slit (with registration
screen). All the observer does,
no matter how fast or complex
his manuevers, is look at the
registration to see the
diffreaction pattern. What he
sees, of course, will be
distorted by perspective, both
geometric/optical and
relativistic, but the rulers in
the frame of the slit are
likewise distorted in
appearance, so if the observer
reads the relevant displacements
from comparison with, as it
were, the slit's rulers, the
results (data) will agree with
those from all other observers
who do the same no matter what
their individual motion is or
was.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Of course, the observer
could, as you suggest, calculate
the deB wave acting between the
particle and himself, but that
would determine the diffraction
of the particle beam off the
observer, not through the slit!
Even deBroglie saw that.
[Actually it's the same deB
wave, but Lorentz x-formed to
each other observer's frame.
Thus same thing, looks, and
acts, different.]</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Again: deB waves are NOT a
characteristic of a particle,
but of its interaction with
other objects, and for each
other object there is a
different deB wave, because each
interaction is different.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>THINK about it. best, Al</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px
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<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px
0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Mittwoch,
10. Februar 2016 um 15:37
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese"
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="genmail@a-giese.de"
target="_parent"><genmail@a-giese.de></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big><span>You
say “</span></big><big><span><span>DeB's
formuals give
results in accord
with empirical
observations </span>“.</span></big></p>
<big> </big>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big><span>I
am very surprised
about this repeated
statement. I think
our past discussion
has shown that the
concept of de
Broglie is
completely wrong –
except his statement
that there exist
matter waves. He has
postulated a wave
which in fact does
not exist and which
does not have any
foundation in
physics. It has a
wavelength which –
by his rule –
disappears when an
observer moves at
some medium speed. </span></big></p>
<big> </big>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big><span>Electron
scattering does
happen, I have shown
in my paper that the
experimental results
can be
quantitatively
explained on the
basis of standard
physics. Indeed very
funny that also the
concept of deB works
in a special case
(but else not). </span></big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>Counter
evidence? Assume we
can perform an
experiment of electron
scattering (e.g. the
one of Jönsson in
1957) in a moving lab.
And we observe it from
our position at rest.
Then we will see that
the results based on
the rules of deB are
completely wrong. - It
is of course difficult
to perform such
experiment at high
speed and at the same
time with high
precision. But I have
shown that it is a
simple calculation to
predict this (failing)
result on the basis of
deB's rules. Should I
explain it again? (It
is in my paper).</big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>Or
alternatively we have
to give up the
Symmetry of Space -
believed
unrestrictedly since
Newton. Give it up
just to save de
Broglie? For no other
use?</big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>E&M
waves on the other
hand are fully
consistent with the
standard rules for
waves. No E&M wave
will disappear just
because there is an
observer moving at
some medium speed. </big></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><big>Ciao,
Albrecht</big></p>
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<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
09.02.2016 um 20:46
schrieb <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi Albrect:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>DeB's formuals
give results in
accord with
empirical
observations---your
claim
notwithstanding.
(BTW, what are you
refering to as
counter evidence?)
Thus, they are
useful and in this
sense correct.
The story he told
himself and used
to derive his
formulas is,
actually,
immaterial insofar
as he got a useful
conception and
useful formulas.
Stories are a
dime-a-dozen, you
have some that
many consider as
off-track as you
appear to consider
DeB's. That
matters only as
"philosphy" but
not as techinical
physics. Anyway,
I suspect that
your deep
antiaffection for
this "wrong" deB
wave is grounded
on the notion that
this wave is a
characteristic of
the particle
instead of its
interaction with
the rest of the
universe as
described by the
SED background
(AKA: the 1/h
h-bar x omega of
the quantized free
E&M wave).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The stories
told by
conventional
physicists to
motivate QM are of
course just so
much blather.
Mostly also
inconsistent
too---a capital
crime for those
bragging about
their rational
thinking! And,
obviously, that is
the push behind my
efforts leading to
#7 on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com">www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com</a></a>! </div>
<div> </div>
<div>In any case,
your fixation with
a fictitious wave
should be extended
to all E&M
waves. None of
them exist as they
are
described---there
is no media. Here
DeB is much less
the offender than
Bohr, Bell,
Heisenberg, Von
Neumann, and whole
flock of 2nd
generation QM
enthusiasts.
Still, QM works.
To me that means
there is a
coherent story to
tell for the math,
we just have to
find it.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, Al</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:
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<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag,
09. Februar
2016 um 19:18
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
the choice of
de Broglie is
not
suboptimal, it
is clearly
wrong. Badly
wrong. The
wave he has
introduced
does not
exist, and if
it would exist
its behaviour
would cause a
physical
behaviour
which is in
conflict with
measurements
(if those are
comprehensively
done).<br>
<br>
I agree with
you that the
main object
now is to move
forward. But
we will not
move
successfully
forward if we
carry
millstones
with us. De
Broglie's wave
is a
millstone. I
just had a
look into a
new textbook
about QM,
which was
highly
recommended by
our
university. It
makes full use
of de
Broglie's
relation
between
momentum and
wavelength, so
this is
unfortunately
not just
history.<br>
<br>
But looking
into the
history: Bohr,
Sommerfeld and
others have
used the
result of de
Broglie to
explain
quantum
numbers.
Particularly
the
quantisation
of the angular
momentum on
atomic shells
is explained
by "standing
waves" where
the wavelength
is the one
defined by dB.
This obviously
hides the true
reason of this
quantisation,
but as anyone
believes that
the Ansatz
using de
Broglie is
right, nobody
is looking for
the correct
cause. - This
is one of the
reasons for
our sticking
physics.<br>
<br>
Tschüss back<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
09.02.2016 um
14:57 schrieb
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div
style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi
Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>As you
fully know,
the very same
idea can be
expressed in
various
languages.
This is true
of physics
also. The very
same structure
can be
attached to
variuos words
and images. I
do not defend
deBroglie's
choice of
words and
images. I too
find his
choice
suboptimal and
somewhat
contrdictory.
So what? He
was playing
his hand at
that time with
the hand he
was delt at
that time.
Since then,
other ideas
have been
found in the
deck, as it
were. I find
that, without
changing any
of his math,
one can tell a
story that is
vastly less
etherial and
mysterious
and, depending
on the
reader's depth
of analysis,
less
self-contradictory.
I think my
story is the
one DeBrogle
would have
told if he had
been inspired
by some facits
of SED. And,
some people
have a greater
affinty and
interest in
abstract
structures, in
particular
when their
mathematical
redintion
seems to work,
that for the
stories told
for their
explication.
This is
particularly
true of all
things QM. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Anyway,
the main
object now
(2016) is to
move forward,
not critique
historical
personalitites.
So, I'm
trying to
contribute to
this
discussion by
adding what I
know now, and
what I have
found to be
useful. We
are "doing"
physics, not
history.
Let's make
new errors,
not just grind
away on the
old ones!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>BTW, to
my info, both
Dirac and
Schrödinger
would agree
that deBroglie
proposed some
not too cogent
arguments
regarding the
nature of
QM-wave
functions.
Still, the
best there at
that time. All
the same, they
too went to
their graves
without having
found a
satisfactory
interpretation.
SED throws
some new
ingredients
into the mix.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Tschuss,
Al </div>
<div>
<div
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<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag,
09. Februar
2016 um 13:41
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="genmail@a-giese.de" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
I have the
impression
that you have
a solution for
particle
scattering
which is in
some way
related to the
idea of de
Broglie. (I
also have of
course a
solution). But
was this the
goal of our
discussion and
of my original
contribution?
It was not! My
objection was
de Broglie's
original idea
as stated in
his thesis and
as taken over
by Schrödinger
and Dirac.<br>
<br>
You have a lot
of elements in
your
argumentation
which I do not
find in the
thesis of de
Broglie.
(There is e.g.
nothing at dB
about SED ore
background.)<br>
<br>
The essential
point of our
discussion is
the meaning of
his wave - and
his
wavelength. I
think it is
very obvious
from his
thesis (which
you clearly
know) that his
"fictitious
wave"
accompanies a
particle like
the electron<i>
all of the
time</i>.
There is no
interaction
mentioned
except that
there is an
observer at
rest who
measures the
frequency of
the particle.
But without
influencing
the particle.<br>
<br>
Now it is
normal
knowledge that
a frequency
and as well a
wavelength
appears
changed for an
observer who
is in motion.
This is caused
by the Doppler
effect. But
the Doppler
effect will
never cause
that a finite
wavelength
changes to
Infinite if an
observer moves
at some speed
unequal to c.
But just that
happens to the
wave invented
by de Broglie.
It follows the
equation<br>
<br>
lambda =
h/(m*v)
where v is the
speed
difference
between the
particle and
the observer
(to say it
this time this
way). And this
is in conflict
to any physics
we know.<br>
<br>
Best, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
08.02.2016 um
17:20 schrieb
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div
style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi
Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Your
challenge is
easy! In fact
my last
responce
covered it.
The RELEVANT
velocity is
the relative
velocity
between the
particle and
the slit; not
that between
the
observer-particle
or
observer-slit.
An observer
will see all
kinds of
distortions of
the events,
starting with
simple
persepctive
due to being
at some
distance from
the slit and
its
registration
screen. In
additon this
observer will
see those deB
waves
affecting the
particle (NOT
from the
particle, nor
from the slit,
but from the
universal
background
there before
either the
particle or
slit came into
being) as
perspectively-relativistically
distorted
(twin-clock
type
distortion).
BUT, the
observer will
still see the
same over-all
background
because the
totality of
background
signals (not
just those to
which this
particle is
tuned), i.e.,
its spectral
energy
density, is
itself Lorentz
invariant.
That is, the
observer's
motion does
not enable it
to empirically
distinguish
between the
background in
the various
frames, nor
does the
background
engender
friction
forces.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You have
got to get
your head
around the
idea that deB
waves are
independant of
particles
whatever their
frame.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Schrördinger
did toy with
some aspects
that deBroglie
used, but
never did
succeed in
rationalizing
his eq. in
those or any
other terms.
For him, when
died, wave
functions were
ontologically
completely
mysterious.
From SED
proponents,
I'm told, my
thoughts in #7
on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com">www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com</a></a>, are unique in
formulating
S's eq. in
terms of deB
concepts. Try
it, maybe
you'll like
it. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>There are
other SED-type
stories too,
but as they
are based on
diffusion
(parabolic,
not
hyperbolic)
precesses, I
find them self
contradictory.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, Al</div>
<div>
<div
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<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Montag,
08. Februar
2016 um 141
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="genmail@a-giese.de" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
if you follow
de Broglie,
you should
have an
explanation
for the
following
experiment
(here again):<br>
<br>
Electrons move
at 0.1 c
towards the
double slit.
Behind the
double slit
there is an
interference
pattern
generated,
which in the
frame of the
slit follows
the rule of de
Broglie. But
now there is
an observer
also moving at
0.1 c parallel
to the beam of
electrons. In
his frame the
electrons have
momentum=0 and
so
wavelength=infinite.
That means: No
interference
pattern. But
there is in
fact a pattern
which does not
disappear just
because there
is another
observer. And
the moving
observer will
see the
pattern. -
This is a
falsification
of de
Broglie's
rule. What
else?<br>
<br>
The
understanding
that the de
Broglie wave
is a property
of the
particle (even
though
depending on
their speed,
but not on an
interaction)
was not my
idea but the
one of
Schrödinger
and Dirac and
many others.
Also by de
Broglie
himself.<br>
<br>
Ciao Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
08.02.2016 um
03:30 schrieb
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div
style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi
Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>BUT, the
laws of
Physics for
"being" in a
frame are not
the laws for
interacting
between
frames! The
deB. wave is
not a feature
of a particle
in its own
frame, but a
feature of the
interaction of
such a
particle with
at least one
other particle
in another
frame. When
the two frames
are moving
with respect
to each other,
then the
features of
the
interaction
cannot be
Lorentz
invariants.
When one
particle is
interacting
with another
particle (or
ensemble---slit
say) the
relevant
physics is
determined by
the deB wave
in that
sitation,
whatever it
looks like to
an observer in
a third frame
with yet
different
relative
velocities.
It is a
perspective
effect: a tree
is the same
ontological
size in fact
no matter how
small it
appears to
distant
observers.
Observed
diminished
size(s) cannot
be "invriant."
Appearances
=/= ,,so
sein''.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You have
gotten your
head stuck on
the idea that
deB. waves are
characteristics
intrinsic to
particles in
an of
themselves.
Recalibrate!
DeB waves are
charactteristics
of the mutual
interaction of
particles.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best, Al</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:
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<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
07. Februar
2016 um 22:10
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="genmail@a-giese.de" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
at one of your
points I
really
disagree. The
physical laws
have to be
fulfilled in
every frame.
That means
that all
physical
processes have
to obey the
same laws in
all frames. So
also the
process at the
double slit.
But the rule
given by de
Broglie looks
correct in
only one
frame, that is
the frame
where the
double slit is
at rest. For
an observer in
motion the
diffraction
pattern looks
very similar
as for the
observer at
rest, but for
the observer
in motion the
results
according to
de Broglie are
completely
different,
because the
momentum of
the particle
is different
in a wide
range in the
frame of a
moving
observer and
so is the
wavelength
assigned to
the particle.<br>
<br>
The specific
case: At
electron
scattering,
the observer
co-moving with
the electron
will see a
similar
pattern as the
observer at
rest, but de
Broglie says
that for this
observer there
does not exist
any pattern.
That is
strongly
incorrect.<br>
<br>
The
Schrödinger
equation and
also the Dirac
function
should have
correct
results in
different
frames, at
least at
non-relativistic
speeds. This
requirement is
clearly
violated
through their
use of de
Broglie's
rule.<br>
<br>
Grüße<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
PS: Your
article refers
to "Stochastic
Electrodynamics".
That is in my
knowledge not
standard
physics and so
a new
assumption.<br>
<br>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
07.02.2016 um
19:03 schrieb
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div
style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi
Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In my
view the story
in my paper
has no new
assunptions,
rather new
words for old
assumptions.
As I, along
with most
others, see
it, there is
no conflict
with
experiment,
but a less
than fully
transparent
explantion for
experimental
observations
(particle beam
diffrction)
otherwise
unexplained.
At the time
of writing,
and nowadays
too (although
I'd to think
that my paper
rationalizes
DeB's story)
it was the
most widely
accepted story
for this
phenomna. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The only
entities that
logically need
to be Lorentz
invariant are
the particle.
I the deB
wave is not a
'Bestandteil'
of the
particle, but
of its
relations with
its
envionment,
then
invariance is
not defined
nor useful.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>M.f.G.
Al</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:
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2.0px solid
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<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
07. Februar
2016 um 14:39
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="genmail@a-giese.de" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a>,
"Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
thank you for
your
reference.
Your paper has
a lot of
intelligent
thoughts but
also a lot of
additional
assumptions.
With reference
to the de
Broglie wave,
I think, is
the situation
much simpler
on the level
of
conservative
knowledge. De
Broglie has
misunderstood
relativity
(particularly
dilation) and
so seen a
conflict which
does in fact
not exist. He
has solved the
conflict by
inventing an
additional
"fictitious"
wave which has
no other
foundation in
physics, and
also his
"theorem of
harmonic
phases" which
as well is an
invention
without need.
And his result
is in conflict
with the
experiment if
we ask for
Lorentz
invariance or
even for
Galilean
invariance. -
If we follow
the basic idea
of de Broglie
by, however,
avoiding his
logical error
about
relativity, we
come easily to
a description
of matter
waves without
logical
conflicts.
This does not
need new
philosophy or
other effort
at this level.<br>
<br>
Best, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
06.02.2016 um
03:15 schrieb
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div
style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi
Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>DeBroglie's
verbage is
indeed quite
rococo!
Nonetheless,
his
machinations,
although
verbalized, in
the true
tradtion of
quantum
mechanics,
mysteriously,
can be
reinterpreted
(i.e.,
alternate
verbage found
without
changing any
of the math)
so as to tell
a fully, if
(somewhat)
hetrodoxical,
story. See
#11 on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com">www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com</a></a>.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>cc:
Waves are
never a
characteristic
of a single,
point-like
entity, but
colletive
motion of a
medium. IF
they exist at
all. My view
is that
E&M waves
are a fiction
wrought by
Fourier
analysis. The
only real
physical part
is an
"interaction",
which mnight
as well be
thought of an
absract string
between
charges.
Also,
neutrons have
electric
multipole
moments; i.e.,
they are
totally
neutral but
not
charge-free. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best,
Al </div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:
10.0px 5.0px
5.0px
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10.0px 0
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2.0px solid
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<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,
05. Februar
2016 um 21:43
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="genmail@a-giese.de" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>
<div
style="background-color:
rgb(255,255,255);">Hi Al,<br>
<br>
true, in the
frame of the
particle the
dB wavelength
is infinite.
Because in its
own frame the
momentum of
the particle
is 0. The
particle
oscillates
with the
frequency of
the particle's
Zitterbewegung
(which
background
fields do you
have in mind?
De Brogie does
not mention
them). This
oscillation is
in no
contradiction
with this
wavelength as
the phase
speed is also
infinite. For
the
imagination,
the latter
means that all
points of that
wave oscillate
with the same
phase at any
point.<br>
<br>
Which
background
waves do you
have in mind?
What is the
CNONOICAL
momentum? And
what about
E&M
interactions?
De Broglie has
not related
his wave to a
specific
field. An
E&M field
would anyway
have no effect
in the case of
neutron
scattering for
which the same
de Broglie
formalism is
used. And into
which frame do
you see the
wave
Lorentz-transformed?<br>
<br>
So, an
electron in
his frame has
an infinite
wavelength and
in his frame
has the double
slit moving
towards the
particle. How
can an
interference
at the slits
occur? No
interference
can happen
under these
conditions.
But, as I have
explained in
the paper, the
normal wave
which
accompanies
the electron
by normal
rules (i.e.
phase speed =
c) will have
an
interference
with its own
reflection,
which has then
a wavelength
which fits to
the
expectation of
de Broglie.
But that is a
very local
event (in a
range of
approx. 10^-12
m for the
electron) and
it is not at
all a property
of the
electron as de
Broglie has
thought.<br>
<br>
To say it
again: The de
Broglie
wavelength
cannot be a
steady
property of
the particle.
But
Schrödinger
and Dirac have
incorporated
it into their
QM equations
with this
understanding.<br>
<br>
If I should
have
misunderstood
you, please
show the
mathematical
calculations
which you
mean.<br>
<br>
Ciao, Albrecht<br>
<br>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
05.02.2016 um
19:20 schrieb
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="af.kracklauer@web.de"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a></a>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div
style="font-family:
Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>
<div>Hi:
Albrecht:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Your
arguments
don't resonate
with me. The
deB' wave
length is
infinite in
the particles
frame: it is
the standing
wave formed by
the inpinging
background
waves having a
freq. = the
particle's
Zitterbewegung.
If these TWO
waves are each
Lorentz
x-formed to
another frame
and added
there, they
exhibit
exactly the
DeB'
modulation
wavelength
proportional
to the
particle's
momentum. The
only
mysterious
feature then
is that the
proportionality
is to the
CNONICAL
momentum,
i.e.,
including the
vector
potential of
whatever
exterior
E&M
interactions
are in-coming.
Nevertheless,
everything
works our
without
contradiction.
A particle
oscillates in
place at its
Zitter freq.
while the
Zitter signals
are modulated
by the DeB'
wavelength as
they move
through slits,
say.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>ciao, L</div>
<div>
<div
style="margin:
10.0px 5.0px
5.0px
10.0px;padding:
10.0px 0
10.0px
10.0px;border-left:
2.0px solid
rgb(195,217,229);">
<div
style="margin:
0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Freitag,
05. Februar
2016 um 12:28
Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="genmail@a-giese.de" target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><genmail@a-giese.de></a></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Richard
Gauthier" <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="richgauthier@gmail.com"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a>, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_parent"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[General] De
Broglie Wave</div>
<div>Hi
Richard and
Al, hi All,<br>
<br>
recently we
had a
discussion
here about two
topics:<br>
<br>
1. The
functionality
of the de
Broglie wave,
particularly
its wavelength<br>
if seen from a
different
inertial
system. Such
cases lead to
illogical<br>
situations.<br>
2. The problem
of the
apparent
asymmetry at
relativistic
dilation.<br>
<br>
I have
investigated
these cases
and found that
they are in
some way<br>
connected.
Relativistic
dilation is
not as simple
as it is
normally<br>
taken. It
looks
asymmetric if
it is
incorrectly
treated. An
asymmetry<br>
would falsify
Special
Relativity.
But it is in
fact
symmetrical if<br>
properly
handled and
understood.<br>
<br>
It is funny
that both
problems are
connected to
each other
through the<br>
fact that de
Broglie
himself has
misinterpreted
dilation. From
this<br>
incorrect
understanding
he did not
find another
way out than
to invent<br>
his "theorem
of phase
harmony"; with
all logical
conflicts
resulting<br>
from this
approach.<br>
<br>
If relativity
is properly
understood,
the problem
seen by de
Broglie<br>
does not
exist.
Equations
regarding
matter waves
can be derived
which<br>
work properly,
i.e. conform
to the
experiments
but avoid the
logical<br>
conflicts.<br>
<br>
As announced,
I have
composed a
paper about
this. It can
be found at:<br>
<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength">https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength</a></a><br>
.<br>
<br>
I thank
Richard
Gauthier for
the discussion
which we had
about this<br>
topic. It
caused me to
investigate
the problem
and to find a
solution.<br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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