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<p>Hello Richard,</p>
<p>your calculations look good. However there has a mechanism to be
understood which is the cause of inertia. This is also seen this
way by main stream physics since a long time (answered there by
the Higgs theory). But if the Higgs mechanism does not work,
another one is needed. I am still convinced that the forces
between the constituents of an extended object in connection with
the finiteness of the speed of light build such a mechanism.
Mathematically it works quite perfect as I have shown repeatedly.</p>
<p>I am still wondering which mechanism causes a photon to move on a
circuit. And how the problem of the conservation of momentum is
solved in this picture.</p>
<p>The fact that circling charges in our models do not radiate is
not surprising. A charge does not "know" what an acceleration is.
An object with inertia knows it, but that is a different
phenomenon. Why does e.g. an electron radiate at acceleration? I
have explained it in my mail to Andrew the other day. Here again:</p>
<p>"The EM field emitted by the electron in case of an acceleration
is caused by the following process. If an electron is accelerated
then its shape is relativistically distorted. As a consequence,
one sub-charge is subject to a changing electrical field of the
other sub-charge. This causes an EM radiation. - This, by the way,
is the only cause of radiation in physics, the situation that one
charge is subject to a changing field. There is no other cause of
radiation in physics. Or do you know one?<span class="">"</span></p>
<p><span class="">We should not be confused by the fact that Maxwell
in his formalism states that an accelerated charge radiates.
Maxwell's equation are a mathematical formalism which is very
beautiful and very well usable by electrical engineers. But it
does not touch the <i>physical </i>causes of electrical and
magnetic phenomena.</span></p>
<p><span class="">Albrecht</span></p>
<p><span class=""><br>
</span></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 20.04.2016 um 20:44 schrieb Richard
Gauthier:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:93C22342-F93A-4573-9949-4E5494AEE2D1@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div class="">Hello Albrecht,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Thank you for your comments. I think that if it
is recognized that a photon has an inertial mass M= hv/c^2, then
it is a short step that in double-looping or single-looping
resting electron models composed of a circulating photon of
energy Eo = hv =0.511 MeV=mc^2 and having a circulating momentum
p=0.511 MeV/c = mc (where m is the electron’s invariant mass
Eo/c^2), the circulating photon will also have a inertial mass
M=hv/c^2 = p/c = 0.511MeV/c^2 = m, the invariant mass of the
electron. For a double-looping photon model of a resting
electron, I show a separate short derivation of the resting
electron’s inertial mass M=m at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.academia.edu/23184598/Origin_of_the_Electrons_Inertia_and_Relativistic_Energy_Momentum_Equation_in_the_Spin-_Charged_Photon_Electron_Model"
class="">https://www.academia.edu/23184598/Origin_of_the_Electrons_Inertia_and_Relativistic_Energy_Momentum_Equation_in_the_Spin-_Charged_Photon_Electron_Model</a> .
The resting electron’s inertial mass M=m originates from the
internally circulating photon’s momentum p=mc=Eo/c=0.511MeV/c.
And even if it is not recognized that a linearly-moving photon
has inertial mass hv/c^2, the derivation of M=m in the
above-linked article still stands for circulating-photon models
of a resting electron, since this derivation for the electron’s
inertial mass in a circulating-photon model does not assume that
the circulating photon composing the electron itself has
inertial mass M=m. This inertial mass of the circulating photon
(and therefore the inertial mass of the electron modeled by the
circulating photon) is what is derived in the calculation of M=m
for the circulating-photon electron model.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> As for your comment about the principle of
equivalence in relation to photons, I will leave that to experts
on general relativity theory. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> You say that the calculations of the inertial
mass M=hv/c^2 of a photon, though good, don’t explain the origin
of inertia in physics. But it is a big step that these
calculations of a photon’s inertial mass during reflection help
explain the origin of the electron’s inertial mass, as I
mentioned above with circulating photon models. I hope that John
W, Martin, Chip, Vivian, John M and any others with circulating
photon models of the electron will agree. Of course, circulating
photon models in their several varieties are still only
hypotheses. There are (at least) two unexplained issues with a
circulating-photon hypothesis for modeling a resting electron:
1) the source of the large apparent force 0.414 N required to
curve a photon with momentum mc into a double-looping circle of
radius Ro=hbar/2mc (and a slightly smaller force required for
such a photon moving in a single-looping circle of radius
R1=hbar/mc) and 2) with a centripetal acceleration of 4.66 x
10^29 m/s^2 in the double-looping charged-photon model (see the
above link for these two calculations), how to explain why the
circulating electric charge doesn’t radiate away the charged
photon's energy 0.511MeV almost instantaneously, if classical
radiation laws from an accelerating electric charge apply (which
apparently they don’t). Perhaps charge-conservation forbids
this. This, by the way, is also a problem for your circling
2-particle electron model since each particle has charge Q= -1/2
e and they both have a similarly huge centripetal acceleration
while moving in a circle with the single-loop radius hbar/mc in
your model. But it may also be that the electron is in a
quantum "ground state" that doesn’t radiate its rest-mass energy
0.511 MeV away, like the electron's energy level -13.6 eV in the
quantum ground state of the hydrogen atom, which is a minimum
energy value for the hydrogen atom. The source of the 0.414 N
force on the double-looping photon may be found in the future,
or perhaps the charged photon follows some kind of
electric-charge geodesic and doesn't radiate unless it departs
from this geodesic.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Richard</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 20, 2016, at 4:25 AM, Albrecht Giese <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"
class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de">genmail@a-giese.de</a></a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""> Dear
Richard,<br class="">
<br class="">
the article about the inertia of the photon is a good
presentation of cases where the inertia is visible, and
the calculation complements this in a very good way.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Anyway I have two comments:<br class="">
<br class="">
1.) The "principle of equivalence" which means here the
weak equivalence is not the only possible explanation for
the fact that every object has the same acceleration in a
gravitational field. The other possibility is that
gravitational acceleration has nothing to do with mass and
with a force. That is particularly visible in the case of
the deflection of photons passing the sun. Many authors
(e.g. Roman Sexl) have shown that this can be fully
explained as a refraction process.<br class="">
<br class="">
2.) The calculations of the inertial mass of a photon are
very good. However they do not cover the question what the
origin of inertia in physics is. As you mention,the Higgs
model does not work. It is a clear fact from astronomical
observations that the QM Higgs field does not exist
(conflict between theory and observation being a factor of
> 10^57. You say that this is an open question in
physics. Here I insist in the position that any extended
object inevitably has inertia, and that another cause is
not needed. <br class="">
<br class="">
Albrecht<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 12.04.2016 um 04:48
schrieb Richard Gauthier:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:F55BA320-C7D1-4E29-B45B-C4C1CF2E6D38@gmail.com"
type="cite" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252" class="">
Hello John W, Martin, Andrew, Albrecht, John M, Hodge,
David, Chip and all,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I’ve just uploaded a new article “A photon
has inertial mass hf/c^2 in mirror reflection and
Compton scattering” to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://academia.edu/" class="">academia.edu</a>
at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.academia.edu/24307968/A_Photon_Has_Inertial_Mass_hv_c_2_in_Mirror_Reflection_and_Compton_Scattering">https://www.academia.edu/24307968/A_Photon_Has_Inertial_Mass_hv_c_2_in_Mirror_Reflection_and_Compton_Scattering</a> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I’ve attached below a pdf copy
for your convenience. </p>
<div class="">Basically I show that when F=Ma is
applied to photon reflection and to Compton
scattering (viewed in the center of momentum frame),
the photon is found to have an inertial mass hv/c^2.
The Compton scattering calculation also shows that
the electron has an inertial mass gamma m. I show
how the photon inertial mass result could relate to
the circulating charged photon model of the electron
to generate the electron’s inertial mass m from the
circling spin 1/2 charged photon's momentum mc.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Comments and criticisms on the new
results are welcome.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Richard</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<!--EndFragment-->
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 10, 2016, at 11:59 AM,
Albrecht Giese <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de" class="">genmail@a-giese.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><small
class="">John,<br class="">
<br class="">
Yes, any extended object has inertia. I
think that this is not too difficult to
understand and to visualize. So again:<br
class="">
<br class="">
What makes an object to be extended? The
constituents have to be bound to each other
so as to maintain a distance. If now one of
the constituents is moved, the other
constituents will follow to keep this
distance. But that does not happen
instantaneously as the binding field
propagates "only" with the speed of light.
That means that for a very short time the
other constituents remain where they are and
the binding fields originating in them will
not change. So, for this short time the
constituent being moved has to be taken out
of the potential minimum of the fields of
the other constituents. This requires a
force. After a short time, the speed of
light permits the other particles to move
and also their fields to move. And as a
consequence there is no longer a force
necessary. - This fact that for an
intermediate time a force is necessary to
change the motion state of an object is
called inertia. - Really too difficult?<br
class="">
<br class="">
The calculation shows that in fact a smaller
object has more inertia. It is proportional
to the inverse of the distance of the
constituents. The reason is that on the one
hand the binding field is universal for all
elementary particles, on the other hand the
strength of the forces is higher at smaller
distances, as we know it from all forces. As
I have said many times, the model provides
precise results. This can be found on my web
site for those interested. This precision
applies of course also to the relation
between size and mass.<br class="">
<br class="">
Since the time when I started this
discussion about inertia 15 years ago, I
have made the experience that a certain
portion of discussion partners (maybe 10 to
20 percent) have problems to understand and
to visualize this process of inertia. Those
persons are mainly physicists working in
theory and who are more specialized for
algebra than for physics. But a minority.
Last month we had the spring conference of
the German Physical Society here in Hamburg
about particle physics. Even though I had to
give my talks about inertia and about the
error of de Broglie in one out of 22
parallel sessions, most people came into my
session. The acceptance and the discussion
about these topics was very encouraging. And
this is my permanent experience.<br class="">
<br class="">
Albrecht</small><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<small class="">Am 10.04.2016 um 06:44 schrieb
John Williamson:</small><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:7DC02B7BFEAA614DA666120C8A0260C914798366@CMS08-01.campus.gla.ac.uk"
type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class="">
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family:
Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Albrecht
- why do you think that somethings "extent"
gives it inertia? This is simply non-sense.
You have just made this up haven't you?<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
class="">
<br class="">
Experimentally smaller things - with less
extent then - have higher mass.<br class="">
<br class="">
JW.<br class="">
<div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';
font-size: 16px;" class="">
<hr tabindex="-1" class="">
<div id="divRpF595153" style="direction:
ltr;" class=""><font class=""
face="Tahoma" size="2"><b class="">From:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
on behalf of Albrecht Giese [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de">genmail@a-giese.de</a></a>]<br
class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday,
April 09, 2016 8:26 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Andrew
Meulenberg; Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion<br
class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[General] inertia<br class="">
</font><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear
Andrew,<br class="">
<br class="">
thank you for your considerations and
arguments about my mass model. And
please apologize that I kept you
waiting for a response. I was off for
several days.<br class="">
<br class="">
My basic point is that any extended
object necessarily has inertia. That
is not just an idea or a possibility,
it is on the contrary completely
inevitable. I think that I have
explained why this is the case. If
necessary I can of course explain it
again.<br class="">
<br class="">
Now, if we assume or accept that
elementary particles are extended,
then the inertia of particles is
inevitably given. And, as you have
cited it again, the results for
leptons and quarks are precise.<br
class="">
<br class="">
The main argument against my model is
the general opinion that elementary
particles, particularly electrons, are
point-like and have no constituents.
The argument of those who have
performed the according experiments is
that it was attempted to decompose the
electron by bombarding it with
particles (like protons) with
sufficiently high energy, A
decomposition has never occurred. From
this it was concluded that the
electron has no constituents. - But
this argument does not apply to my
particle model. The constituents of an
elementary particle are according to
my model mass-less. So one of its
constituents may be accelerated by an
arbitrary amount, the other one - as
having no own mass - can follow
immediately. Not even any force will
occur. - Accordingly this argument is
not applicable against this model.<br
class="">
<br class="">
And the rest is known. If one
determines the size of the electron by
the evaluation of e.g. its magnetic
moment, the result for the mass
conforms very precisely to the
measurement.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
class="">
<br class="">
It is true that the assumption of two
constituents for an elementary
particle is very uncommon. But as long
as there are no conflicting facts such
assumption can be made. It is a common
way in physics by my understanding. On
the other hand there was a kind of
indication for two constituents
described by the article of Frank
Wilczek about the electron in Nature
in summer 2013.<br class="">
<br class="">
The explanation of inertia of an
electron by a bound photon is in my
understanding not a real explanation
as it assumes that a photon itself has
some kind of inertia, without
explaining how this works inside a
photon. So it just diverts the problem
to another particle, at least as it
was explained during this discussion
since October last year. And also the
task to be done is not only the mass
of an electron, but the mass of all
particles, i.e. all leptons and all
quarks. Do you assume that all these
particles are built by bound photons?<br
class="">
<br class="">
So, in my understanding, if there is
another explanation for inertia, then
we will have two explanations in
parallel. Or, if on the other hand
someone has or knows an experiment
which is in conflict with my model,
that would of course refute my model.
Up to now I did not hear about such
results.<br class="">
<br class="">
Thank you again for your
considerations.<br class="">
<br class="">
Albrecht<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Fri, 1 Apr 2016 12:49:24 +0530
schrieb Andrew Meulenberg :<br
class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="moz-forward-container">Dear
Albrecht,<br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
You have repeatedly based your
model on lack of alternatives
(with very precise results). E.g.,<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<div style="margin-left:
80px;" class="">Why 2
particles in the model? I
say it again:<br class="">
<br class="">
1) to maintain the
conservation of momentum in
the view of oscillations<br
class="">
2) to have a mechanism for
inertia (which has very
precise results, otherwise
non-existent in present
physics)<br class="">
<br class="">
I will be happy to see
alternatives for both
points. Up to now I have not
seen any.<span class="im"></span><br
class="">
</div>
<div style="margin-left:
40px;" class=""><span
class="im"></span></div>
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I'm sure that
alternatives exist. Whether
they have very precise results
to support them may be up for
debate.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
class="">
<br class="">
My own relativistic model for
inertia depends on the
electron being, in its ground
(restmass) state, a
spherically bound photon.
Until that concept is
accepted, it makes little
sense to go further in a
description. However, if
accepted, it then also leads
to understanding the inertia
of a photon.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Your two-particle
model faces the same
challenge. Unless you are able
to shape that premise into an
acceptable form, it is
unlikely that anything that
follows will matter. Can you
(re)define your particles to
be acceptable to an audience
and still fulfill your
assumptions and derived
results?<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Andrew<br class="">
</div>
</div>
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<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 20px; color: #41424e; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">Virenfrei. <a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a> </td>
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