<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 30, 2016, at 9:47 AM, Albrecht Giese <<a href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de" class="">genmail@a-giese.de</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""><p class="">Hallo Richard,</p><p class="">you are making good calculations. However, some questions are
still open:</p><p class="">1. What does the photon make to move on a circuit? A charge can
only be the cause if there is another charge attracting this one.
Or a corresponding permanent field. I do not see it in your model.
- If the reason is that the photon is curling up, which mechanism
makes it to curl up?<br class="">
</p><p class="">2. You say that inertia and momentum is essentially the same. I
agree. But if you refer the inertial mass of the electron to the
momentum of the circling photon, this is by itself not an
explanation. There has to be a mechanism which causes your charged
photon to have a momentum. For this question I could also not find
an answer in your academia.paper. What did I overlook?<br class="">
</p><p class="">Albrecht</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
Am 23.04.2016 um 06:44 schrieb Richard Gauthier:<br class="">
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Hello Albrecht,
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class=""> Thank you for your further comments and
questions about inertial mass and my electron model.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> It is becoming clear to me that the cause or
origin of inertia is momentum. Newton’s “law of inertia” (his
first law of motion) is just an expression of conservation of
momentum in the absence of an outside force that changes
momentum. But “inertia” has been a vague word because it has
not been understood how an object with a rest mass m gets this
inertial mass or resistance to acceleration given by m=F/a .
But when it is understood that a resting electron may be
composed of a circulating photon carrying momentum mc=Eo/c
when the electron’s rest energy is Eo=0.511 MeV/c^2, then it
becomes clear why an electron has inertial mass m — it is
quantitatively due to this circulating internal momentum
mc=Eo/c .</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> But you raise very important issues: "I am
still wondering which mechanism causes a photon to move on a
circuit. And how the problem of the conservation of momentum
is solved in this picture.” I think the ability of a photon
to move in a circle or helix is closely related to its ability
(for a proposed spin-1/2 photon that forms an electron) to
carry an electric charge. My proposed model of a spin-1/2
photon (which I briefly described perhaps a year ago in this
“Nature of Light and Particles” discussion list, is proposed
to exist in a curled-up double-loop configuration (as an
electron) or in a non-curled-up state (where it would be an
uncharged spin-1/2 photon) or with any degree of curling in
between. The more curled-up the spin-1/2 photon is, the
greater its electric charge, up to a maximum of -e for an
electron. And once the spin-1/2 charged photon is curled up
and separated from the second spin-1/2 charged photon formed
with it that became a positron in e-p production, the
curled-up spin-1/2 charged photon is unable to uncurl itself
because this would violate conservation of electric charge. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> My model of a spin-1/2 charged photon is
closely related to the model of a spin-1 uncharged photon
described in my article <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.academia.edu/4429810/Transluminal_Energy_Quantum_Models_of_the_Photon_and_the_Electron" class="">https://www.academia.edu/4429810/Transluminal_Energy_Quantum_Models_of_the_Photon_and_the_Electron</a> .
In the spin-1/2 photon model, the proposed transluminal energy
quantum (TEQ) forming the spin-1/2 photon makes 2 helical
loops instead of one for each wavelength of the spin-1/2
photon, but the spin-1/2 photon model still has a forward
internal angle of 45 degrees like the spin-1 photon model.
(These two helical loops per wavelength of the spin-1/2
charged photon generate the zitterbewegung frequency of the
curled-up double-looped photon model.) The radius R of the
spin-1/2 photon model is R=lambda/4pi instead of R=lambda/2pi
for the spin-1 photon model. In both the spin-1 photon model
and the uncurled spin-1/2 photon model, the photon moves
forward at the speed c but the transluminal energy quantum
forming the photon moves helically at c sqrt(2).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> What about the problem of conservation of
momentum in the one-particle circulating spin-1/2 charged
photon model of the electron? It has been calculated that a
centripetal force of 0.414 N keeps the spin-1/2 charged photon
moving in a double-looped circle with a radius of hbar/2mc.
This centripetal force of 0.414 N is continuously changing the
direction of the circulating charged photon’s momentum mc.The
source of this external force on the circulating charged
photon is not known in the spin-1/2 charged photon model, but
conservation of momentum is not required for the circulating
spin-1/2 charged photon if there is an external force acting
it to change its momentum into a circular trajectory to form
the electron.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> I hope these explanations about the possible
origin of inertial mass in the electron are helpful.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Richard</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 22, 2016, at 7:53 AM, Albrecht Giese
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de" class="">genmail@a-giese.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""><p class="">Hello Richard,</p><p class="">your calculations look good. However there
has a mechanism to be understood which is the cause
of inertia. This is also seen this way by main
stream physics since a long time (answered there by
the Higgs theory). But if the Higgs mechanism does
not work, another one is needed. I am still
convinced that the forces between the constituents
of an extended object in connection with the
finiteness of the speed of light build such a
mechanism. Mathematically it works quite perfect as
I have shown repeatedly.</p><p class="">I am still wondering which mechanism
causes a photon to move on a circuit. And how the
problem of the conservation of momentum is solved in
this picture.</p><p class="">The fact that circling charges in our
models do not radiate is not surprising. A charge
does not "know" what an acceleration is. An object
with inertia knows it, but that is a different
phenomenon. Why does e.g. an electron radiate at
acceleration? I have explained it in my mail to
Andrew the other day. Here again:</p><p class="">"The EM field emitted by the electron in
case of an acceleration is caused by the following
process. If an electron is accelerated then its
shape is relativistically distorted. As a
consequence, one sub-charge is subject to a changing
electrical field of the other sub-charge. This
causes an EM radiation. - This, by the way, is the
only cause of radiation in physics, the situation
that one charge is subject to a changing field.
There is no other cause of radiation in physics. Or
do you know one?<span class="">"</span></p><p class=""><span class="">We should not be confused
by the fact that Maxwell in his formalism states
that an accelerated charge radiates. Maxwell's
equation are a mathematical formalism which is
very beautiful and very well usable by electrical
engineers. But it does not touch the <i class="">physical
</i>causes of electrical and magnetic phenomena.</span></p><p class=""><span class="">Albrecht</span></p><p class=""><span class=""><br class="">
</span></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 20.04.2016 um 20:44
schrieb Richard Gauthier:<br class="">
</div>
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<div class="">Hello Albrecht,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Thank you for your comments. I
think that if it is recognized that a photon has
an inertial mass M= hv/c^2, then it is a short
step that in double-looping or single-looping
resting electron models composed of a circulating
photon of energy Eo = hv =0.511 MeV=mc^2 and
having a circulating momentum p=0.511 MeV/c = mc
(where m is the electron’s invariant mass Eo/c^2),
the circulating photon will also have a inertial
mass M=hv/c^2 = p/c = 0.511MeV/c^2 = m, the
invariant mass of the electron. For a
double-looping photon model of a resting electron,
I show a separate short derivation of the resting
electron’s inertial mass M=m at <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.academia.edu/23184598/Origin_of_the_Electrons_Inertia_and_Relativistic_Energy_Momentum_Equation_in_the_Spin-_Charged_Photon_Electron_Model" class=""></a><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/23184598/Origin_of_the_Electrons_Inertia_and_Relativistic_Energy_Momentum_Equation_in_the_Spin-_Charged_Photon_Electron_Model">https://www.academia.edu/23184598/Origin_of_the_Electrons_Inertia_and_Relativistic_Energy_Momentum_Equation_in_the_Spin-_Charged_Photon_Electron_Model</a> .
The resting electron’s inertial mass M=m
originates from the internally circulating
photon’s momentum p=mc=Eo/c=0.511MeV/c. And even
if it is not recognized that a linearly-moving
photon has inertial mass hv/c^2, the derivation of
M=m in the above-linked article still stands for
circulating-photon models of a resting electron,
since this derivation for the electron’s inertial
mass in a circulating-photon model does not assume
that the circulating photon composing the electron
itself has inertial mass M=m. This inertial mass
of the circulating photon (and therefore the
inertial mass of the electron modeled by the
circulating photon) is what is derived in the
calculation of M=m for the circulating-photon
electron model.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> As for your comment about the
principle of equivalence in relation to photons, I
will leave that to experts on general relativity
theory. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> You say that the calculations of
the inertial mass M=hv/c^2 of a photon, though
good, don’t explain the origin of inertia in
physics. But it is a big step that these
calculations of a photon’s inertial mass during
reflection help explain the origin of the
electron’s inertial mass, as I mentioned above
with circulating photon models. I hope that John
W, Martin, Chip, Vivian, John M and any others
with circulating photon models of the electron
will agree. Of course, circulating photon models
in their several varieties are still only
hypotheses. There are (at least) two unexplained
issues with a circulating-photon hypothesis for
modeling a resting electron: 1) the source of the
large apparent force 0.414 N required to curve a
photon with momentum mc into a double-looping
circle of radius Ro=hbar/2mc (and a slightly
smaller force required for such a photon moving in
a single-looping circle of radius R1=hbar/mc) and
2) with a centripetal acceleration of 4.66 x 10^29
m/s^2 in the double-looping charged-photon model
(see the above link for these two calculations),
how to explain why the circulating electric charge
doesn’t radiate away the charged photon's energy
0.511MeV almost instantaneously, if classical
radiation laws from an accelerating electric
charge apply (which apparently they don’t).
Perhaps charge-conservation forbids this. This, by
the way, is also a problem for your circling
2-particle electron model since each particle has
charge Q= -1/2 e and they both have a similarly
huge centripetal acceleration while moving in a
circle with the single-loop radius hbar/mc in your
model. But it may also be that the electron is in
a quantum "ground state" that doesn’t radiate its
rest-mass energy 0.511 MeV away, like the
electron's energy level -13.6 eV in the quantum
ground state of the hydrogen atom, which is a
minimum energy value for the hydrogen atom. The
source of the 0.414 N force on the double-looping
photon may be found in the future, or perhaps the
charged photon follows some kind of
electric-charge geodesic and doesn't radiate
unless it departs from this geodesic.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Richard</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 20, 2016, at 4:25 AM,
Albrecht Giese <<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de">genmail@a-giese.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
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Dear Richard,<br class="">
<br class="">
the article about the inertia of the photon
is a good presentation of cases where the
inertia is visible, and the calculation
complements this in a very good way.<br class="">
<br class="">
Anyway I have two comments:<br class="">
<br class="">
1.) The "principle of equivalence" which
means here the weak equivalence is not the
only possible explanation for the fact that
every object has the same acceleration in a
gravitational field. The other possibility
is that gravitational acceleration has
nothing to do with mass and with a force.
That is particularly visible in the case of
the deflection of photons passing the sun.
Many authors (e.g. Roman Sexl) have shown
that this can be fully explained as a
refraction process.<br class="">
<br class="">
2.) The calculations of the inertial mass of
a photon are very good. However they do not
cover the question what the origin of
inertia in physics is. As you mention,the
Higgs model does not work. It is a clear
fact from astronomical observations that the
QM Higgs field does not exist (conflict
between theory and observation being a
factor of > 10^57. You say that this is
an open question in physics. Here I insist
in the position that any extended object
inevitably has inertia, and that another
cause is not needed. <br class="">
<br class="">
Albrecht<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 12.04.2016
um 04:48 schrieb Richard Gauthier:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:F55BA320-C7D1-4E29-B45B-C4C1CF2E6D38@gmail.com" type="cite" class="">
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Hello John W, Martin, Andrew, Albrecht,
John M, Hodge, David, Chip and all,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I’ve just uploaded a new
article “A photon has inertial mass
hf/c^2 in mirror reflection and Compton
scattering” to <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://academia.edu/" class="">academia.edu</a>
at <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/24307968/A_Photon_Has_Inertial_Mass_hv_c_2_in_Mirror_Reflection_and_Compton_Scattering">https://www.academia.edu/24307968/A_Photon_Has_Inertial_Mass_hv_c_2_in_Mirror_Reflection_and_Compton_Scattering</a> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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<![endif]--><!--StartFragment--><p class="MsoNormal">I’ve attached below
a pdf copy for your convenience. </p>
<div class="">Basically I show that when
F=Ma is applied to photon reflection
and to Compton scattering (viewed in
the center of momentum frame), the
photon is found to have an inertial
mass hv/c^2. The Compton scattering
calculation also shows that the
electron has an inertial mass gamma m.
I show how the photon inertial mass
result could relate to the circulating
charged photon model of the electron
to generate the electron’s inertial
mass m from the circling spin 1/2
charged photon's momentum mc.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Comments and criticisms on
the new results are welcome.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">Richard</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<!--EndFragment-->
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 10, 2016, at
11:59 AM, Albrecht Giese <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de" class=""></a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de">genmail@a-giese.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows:
auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);"><small class="">John,<br class="">
<br class="">
Yes, any extended object has
inertia. I think that this is
not too difficult to
understand and to visualize.
So again:<br class="">
<br class="">
What makes an object to be
extended? The constituents
have to be bound to each other
so as to maintain a distance.
If now one of the constituents
is moved, the other
constituents will follow to
keep this distance. But that
does not happen
instantaneously as the binding
field propagates "only" with
the speed of light. That means
that for a very short time the
other constituents remain
where they are and the binding
fields originating in them
will not change. So, for this
short time the constituent
being moved has to be taken
out of the potential minimum
of the fields of the other
constituents. This requires a
force. After a short time, the
speed of light permits the
other particles to move and
also their fields to move. And
as a consequence there is no
longer a force necessary. -
This fact that for an
intermediate time a force is
necessary to change the motion
state of an object is called
inertia. - Really too
difficult?<br class="">
<br class="">
The calculation shows that in
fact a smaller object has more
inertia. It is proportional to
the inverse of the distance of
the constituents. The reason
is that on the one hand the
binding field is universal for
all elementary particles, on
the other hand the strength of
the forces is higher at
smaller distances, as we know
it from all forces. As I have
said many times, the model
provides precise results. This
can be found on my web site
for those interested. This
precision applies of course
also to the relation between
size and mass.<br class="">
<br class="">
Since the time when I started
this discussion about inertia
15 years ago, I have made the
experience that a certain
portion of discussion partners
(maybe 10 to 20 percent) have
problems to understand and to
visualize this process of
inertia. Those persons are
mainly physicists working in
theory and who are more
specialized for algebra than
for physics. But a minority.
Last month we had the spring
conference of the German
Physical Society here in
Hamburg about particle
physics. Even though I had to
give my talks about inertia
and about the error of de
Broglie in one out of 22
parallel sessions, most people
came into my session. The
acceptance and the discussion
about these topics was very
encouraging. And this is my
permanent experience.<br class="">
<br class="">
Albrecht</small><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<small class="">Am 10.04.2016 um
06:44 schrieb John Williamson:</small><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:7DC02B7BFEAA614DA666120C8A0260C914798366@CMS08-01.campus.gla.ac.uk" type="cite" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);" class="">
<div style="direction: ltr;
font-family: Tahoma;
font-size: 10pt;" class="">Albrecht
- why do you think that
somethings "extent" gives it
inertia? This is simply
non-sense. You have just made
this up haven't you?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
Experimentally smaller things
- with less extent then - have
higher mass.<br class="">
<br class="">
JW.<br class="">
<div style="font-family:
'Times New Roman';
font-size: 16px;" class="">
<hr tabindex="-1" class="">
<div id="divRpF595153" style="direction: ltr;" class=""><font class="" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General [<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
on behalf of Albrecht
Giese [<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"></a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de">genmail@a-giese.de</a>]<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, April 09, 2016 8:26 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Andrew Meulenberg; Nature of Light
and Particles - General
Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] inertia<br class="">
</font><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear
Andrew,<br class="">
<br class="">
thank you for your
considerations and
arguments about my mass
model. And please
apologize that I kept
you waiting for a
response. I was off for
several days.<br class="">
<br class="">
My basic point is that
any extended object
necessarily has inertia.
That is not just an idea
or a possibility, it is
on the contrary
completely inevitable. I
think that I have
explained why this is
the case. If necessary I
can of course explain it
again.<br class="">
<br class="">
Now, if we assume or
accept that elementary
particles are extended,
then the inertia of
particles is inevitably
given. And, as you have
cited it again, the
results for leptons and
quarks are precise.<br class="">
<br class="">
The main argument
against my model is the
general opinion that
elementary particles,
particularly electrons,
are point-like and have
no constituents. The
argument of those who
have performed the
according experiments is
that it was attempted to
decompose the electron
by bombarding it with
particles (like protons)
with sufficiently high
energy, A decomposition
has never occurred. From
this it was concluded
that the electron has no
constituents. - But this
argument does not apply
to my particle model.
The constituents of an
elementary particle are
according to my model
mass-less. So one of its
constituents may be
accelerated by an
arbitrary amount, the
other one - as having no
own mass - can follow
immediately. Not even
any force will occur. -
Accordingly this
argument is not
applicable against this
model.<br class="">
<br class="">
And the rest is known.
If one determines the
size of the electron by
the evaluation of e.g.
its magnetic moment, the
result for the mass
conforms very precisely
to the measurement.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
It is true that the
assumption of two
constituents for an
elementary particle is
very uncommon. But as
long as there are no
conflicting facts such
assumption can be made.
It is a common way in
physics by my
understanding. On the
other hand there was a
kind of indication for
two constituents
described by the article
of Frank Wilczek about
the electron in Nature
in summer 2013.<br class="">
<br class="">
The explanation of
inertia of an electron
by a bound photon is in
my understanding not a
real explanation as it
assumes that a photon
itself has some kind of
inertia, without
explaining how this
works inside a photon.
So it just diverts the
problem to another
particle, at least as it
was explained during
this discussion since
October last year. And
also the task to be done
is not only the mass of
an electron, but the
mass of all particles,
i.e. all leptons and all
quarks. Do you assume
that all these particles
are built by bound
photons?<br class="">
<br class="">
So, in my understanding,
if there is another
explanation for inertia,
then we will have two
explanations in
parallel. Or, if on the
other hand someone has
or knows an experiment
which is in conflict
with my model, that
would of course refute
my model. Up to now I
did not hear about such
results.<br class="">
<br class="">
Thank you again for your
considerations.<br class="">
<br class="">
Albrecht<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Fri, 1 Apr 2016
12:49:24 +0530 schrieb
Andrew Meulenberg :<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="moz-forward-container">Dear
Albrecht,<br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
You have repeatedly
based your model on
lack of alternatives
(with very precise
results). E.g.,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<div style="margin-left:
80px;" class="">Why 2
particles in
the model? I
say it again:<br class="">
<br class="">
1) to maintain
the
conservation
of momentum in
the view of
oscillations<br class="">
2) to have a
mechanism for
inertia (which
has very
precise
results,
otherwise
non-existent
in present
physics)<br class="">
<br class="">
I will be
happy to see
alternatives
for both
points. Up to
now I have not
seen any.<span class="im"></span><br class="">
</div>
<div style="margin-left:
40px;" class=""><span class="im"></span></div>
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I'm
sure that
alternatives
exist. Whether
they have very
precise results
to support them
may be up for
debate.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
My own
relativistic
model for
inertia depends
on the electron
being, in its
ground
(restmass)
state, a
spherically
bound photon.
Until that
concept is
accepted, it
makes little
sense to go
further in a
description.
However, if
accepted, it
then also leads
to understanding
the inertia of a
photon.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Your
two-particle
model faces the
same challenge.
Unless you are
able to shape
that premise
into an
acceptable form,
it is unlikely
that anything
that follows
will matter. Can
you (re)define
your particles
to be acceptable
to an audience
and still
fulfill your
assumptions and
derived results?<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Andrew<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
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