<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <p>Wolf,</p>
    <p>so, let's start to work out our understanding and knowledge of
      space (and maybe of time).</p>
    <p>It is again surprising for me that you find my particle model
      speculative and complicated. I believe the opposite. Why?</p>
    <p>An elementary particle must be rotating. That is required by</p>
    <p>-  SR (dilation)<br>
      -  the fact of an angular momentum (which is otherwise not
      explained)<br>
      -  the fact of a magnetic moment (which also is otherwise not
      explained).</p>
    <p>Both, angular momentum (spin) and magnetic moment also require
      that the particle has an extension. Otherwise both properties
      cannot exist. (And further the extension is a very simple and
      inevitable explanation for inertia. That is a benefit on top.)</p>
    <p>So, why speculative? <br>
    </p>
    <p>The other explanations presented here in our group which say that
      elementary particles are built by photons which anyway have
      angular momentum and inertia and which do not need an explanation
      for it is just a transfer of the questions to another object. Does
      this help the physical understanding? Not in my view.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Best<br>
      Albrecht</p>
    <p>PS: See you at Vigier X.<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 14.06.2016 um 21:26 schrieb Wolfgang
      Baer:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:4534fcc0-6221-f125-36d8-c7a4df96364d@nascentinc.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <p>Albrecht:</p>
      <p> I think your understanding of Einstein and his interpretation
        of space is a very good topic and probably worth a paper effort
        I would like to work with you on.</p>
      <p>However as you know I believe your rotating particle
        explanation is too speculative and perhaps more complicated than
        necessary, so it is your knowledge and alternatives to Einstein
        that I believe hits our Zeitgeist appropriately and can have an
        impact.<br>
      </p>
      <p>I'll be going to Vigier X and hope to see you there.</p>
      <p>best</p>
      <p>wolf<br>
      </p>
      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/14/2016 11:59 AM, Albrecht Giese
        wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote
        cite="mid:7c191bf4-1db5-e5d6-0ef3-a7079699e3bd@a-giese.de"
        type="cite">
        <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
          http-equiv="Content-Type">
        <p>Hi Chip,</p>
        <p>is the vacuum empty? Until Einstein's relativity it was
          assumed that the vacuum is filled by some kind of matter as a
          carrier of light. After Einstein's break through in 1920 this
          assumption was abandoned by all physicists who were willing to
          follow Einstein. In the general understanding the vacuum was
          really empty. Then, in the development of QM, Heisenberg's
          uncertainty assumption had the consequence that also in the
          vacuum there are virtual particles permanently generated and
          disappearing immediately afterwards so that the energy-time
          relation is not violated. <br>
        </p>
        <p>This is until these days the opinion of main stream physics.
          The vacuum is filled by clouds of virtual particles, but not
          with any stable matter. You may look in any text book or into
          Wikipedia, you will find this. Here a reference see</p>
        <p><a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
            href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy</a></p>
        <p>Very few physicists believe to my knowledge that there is a
          medium which fills the space. <br>
          <br>
          My specific view is that I doubt that there are virtual
          particles and so a vacuum polarization because the effects
          attributed to this can be explained by classical means. And,
          as we know, if the vacuum energy of the universe is summed up,
          the result is in conflict with the observation by the huge
          factor of 10^120. - For my model I do not need anything in the
          space (except the exchange particle which are assumed by QM).
          If there should be something then it depends what it is to
          judge the situation.<br>
        </p>
        <p>Einstein was always (from the beginning) aware of the fact
          that an aether was not disproved by Michelson-Morley. He just
          found it more elegant to have a theory without an invisible
          aether, and for a positivist, what he was in his early years,
          a theory should not have unobservable elements.</p>
        <p>All the best<br>
          Albrecht<br>
        </p>
        <p><br>
        </p>
        <br>
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 10.06.2016 um 14:04 schrieb Chip
          Akins:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote cite="mid:02d201d1c310$48a6f790$d9f4e6b0$@gmail.com"
          type="cite">
          <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
            charset=windows-1252">
          <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered
            medium)">
          <!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]-->
          <style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
        {font-family:"Cambria Math";
        panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
        {font-family:Calibri;
        panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
        {font-family:Consolas;
        panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
        {margin:0in;
        margin-bottom:.0001pt;
        font-size:12.0pt;
        font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;
        color:black;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
        {mso-style-priority:99;
        color:blue;
        text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
        {mso-style-priority:99;
        color:purple;
        text-decoration:underline;}
p
        {mso-style-priority:99;
        mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
        margin-right:0in;
        mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
        margin-left:0in;
        font-size:12.0pt;
        font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;
        color:black;}
pre
        {mso-style-priority:99;
        mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
        margin:0in;
        margin-bottom:.0001pt;
        font-size:10.0pt;
        font-family:"Courier New";
        color:black;}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
        {mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
        mso-style-priority:99;
        mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
        font-family:Consolas;
        color:black;}
span.apple-converted-space
        {mso-style-name:apple-converted-space;}
span.ecxyiv2438876326
        {mso-style-name:ecxyiv2438876326;}
span.ecxyiv2438876326mathjaxpreview
        {mso-style-name:ecxyiv2438876326mathjax_preview;}
span.ecxyiv2438876326mathjax
        {mso-style-name:ecxyiv2438876326mathjax;}
span.ecxyiv2438876326math
        {mso-style-name:ecxyiv2438876326math;}
span.ecxyiv2438876326mrow
        {mso-style-name:ecxyiv2438876326mrow;}
span.ecxyiv2438876326mi
        {mso-style-name:ecxyiv2438876326mi;}
span.ecxyiv2438876326mo
        {mso-style-name:ecxyiv2438876326mo;}
span.ecxyiv2438876326texatom
        {mso-style-name:ecxyiv2438876326texatom;}
span.ecxyiv2438876326mn
        {mso-style-name:ecxyiv2438876326mn;}
span.ecxyiv2438876326st
        {mso-style-name:ecxyiv2438876326st;}
span.ecxyiv2438876326apple-converted-space
        {mso-style-name:ecxyiv2438876326apple-converted-space;}
span.EmailStyle32
        {mso-style-type:personal;
        color:black;}
span.EmailStyle33
        {mso-style-type:personal;
        color:black;}
span.EmailStyle34
        {mso-style-type:personal-reply;
        color:black;}
.MsoChpDefault
        {mso-style-type:export-only;
        font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
        {size:8.5in 11.0in;
        margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
        {page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
          <div class="WordSection1">
            <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Albrecht<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Years ago, just after Einstein’s
              Special Relativity, but before General Relativity,
              Einstein wrote that there was no need for a medium of
              space.  However Einstein himself reversed that opinion
              with the theory of General relativity. After he published
              General Relativity he said, “…the hypothesis of ether in
              itself is not in conflict with the special theory of
              relativity”. <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Currently it is my understanding that
              most physicists believe there is a medium of space and
              that this medium has oscillations providing a very large
              background energy density to space. It seems you are still
              of the old opinion that space is empty.  I think you will
              find that most physicists no longer concur with that
              premise. If you choose to believe that space is empty then
              I understand why you must resort to your methods to try to
              figure out the puzzle.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">So you are starting with the assumption
              that space is empty and I believe space to be a medium. 
              Therefore we will not agree on practically everything
              else. So no need to continue the discussion.  We each will
              perceive the other to be blind to the obvious.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Best to you<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Chip<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
                    Albrecht Giese [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                      href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de">mailto:genmail@a-giese.de</a>]
                    <br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 10, 2016 3:48 AM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> Chip Akins <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                      href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><chipakins@gmail.com></a>;
                    'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                      href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] inertia<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <p>Hi Chip,<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p>following some comments to your mail from my view.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Am 08.06.2016 um 23:52 schrieb Chip
              Akins:<br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Albrecht<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">A Wave:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">A transverse wave is a distortion of
                a medium which propagates at the velocity dictated by
                the “density” and the transverse modulus of the medium.
                That is what waves are. <o:p></o:p></p>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal">You refer here to waves in a medium.
              That is different from what we are discussing here. Both
              have been seen as the same at a time when physics believed
              in an "aether" as a medium. But that understanding is
              gone. Here it is about electrical waves and maybe waves of
              the strong force, no medium involved.<br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal">That is what we can observe of all
                sorts of waves. Maxwell’s equations were built on the
                principals of these wave fundamental mechanics.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Where does Maxwell need a medium?
              Maxwell's equations are anyway a mathematical formalism,
              well working, but not related to the physical origin of
              the phenomena. A very clear mistake in his understanding
              is the equivalence of electricity and magnetism. That is
              obsolete. We know since long time (at least since the time
              of Einstein's activity), that magnetism is nothing than a
              relativistic side effect of electricity (in some way
              similar to the Coriolis force which is as well not an
              additional type of force but a certain view onto the
              Newtonian force). <br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">You say, <span style="color:#002060">“And
                  what is a field? A field is a human abstraction to
                  describe the influence of a charge.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">If you tell yourself this in order to
                try to reject the notion of fields being real, then it
                seems you miss a great opportunity to better understand
                space and the universe.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal">What about space? Also space is a human
              abstraction which Einstein used to develop his
              mathematical formalism of relativity. An important aspect
              of space is that there is no way to measure space in
              physics. All statements in physics about space are
              interpretations of observations, there is nothing direct.<br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Such distortions of a medium have
                gradients, it is likely that these gradients are the
                source of the things we call fields. So it may be that
                the elementary charge is topologically created by these
                “fields”.  If this is the case then charge is caused by
                “field” divergence (which is the byproduct of
                confinement of the wave to make a charged particle). 
                Also if this is the case then there are forces between
                fields of the right topology where no elementary charge
                is present.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal">In my view this is an upside-down
              understanding. You can localize a charge and transport a
              charge from one place to another one. You cannot do this
              with a field. Conclusion is that a charge is more
              fundamental than a field.  This is also what my textbook
              says.    And Wikipedia says: "Electric fields are caused
              by electric charges ...." . <br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Your explanation does not explain
                what charge is. This approach does. Your explanation is
                not simple because it does not explain what particles
                are, and would have to become much more complex in order
                to explain how these particles magically possess the
                properties you have assigned them. This wave approach
                does explain what particles are and illustrates how they
                obtain most of their properties.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Where are the properties of a wave
              fundamentally defined or explained?<br>
              In my view a charge (electric or strong force) is the most
              fundamental unit in our world. The effect of a charge in
              physics is described by the Coulomb law (in case of
              electric charge) and by a similar law in case of the
              strong force. <br>
              In the view of QM the action of a charge is mediated by
              exchange particles. These particles are mass-less and move
              with c. And this view explains very directly Coulomb's
              law. So, it appears to me as a very straight understanding
              of those phenomena without the need of additional
              assumptions. One interesting question is, in which way
              charges combine to build a multi-pole field. In the case
              of atoms, which build a molecule, this is well understood.
              In case of elementary particles it is not treated by
              present main stream as the methodology of QM is accepted
              there, and QM denies to look into the structure of
              elementary particles. - I think this is a problem that
              bothers all of us here.<br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">This wave approach removes
                “mystification” about particles. This wave approach is
                causal and deterministic.  Meaning that for most of the
                topics we have been discussing it provides explanations,
                instead of just accepting that particles exist and have
                a list of properties, it explains what particles are,
                and why they have the properties they possess.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Could you please list here all
              properties which a field or a wave must have so that the
              properties of particles and of physical laws follow from
              it?  I have read some of the discussions here based on
              waves, and this has a lot of mystification in my view. <br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">(Of course the next issue would be to
                try to better understand nature of the medium these
                waves travel through. But I think we should take it one
                step at a time.)<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">My point is that using the wave
                approach more of the puzzles are solved and there is
                less “mystification” instead of more. <o:p></o:p></p>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal">The effect of a charge is fully
              described by the Coulomb law. Is the effect and are the
              properties of a wave described by a law which is
              comparatively simple? And comparatively simple to deduce? 
              I do not at all have this impression if I follow the
              discussion here. <o:p></o:p></p>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal">We don’t need the mystification of
                imagining magical massless “particles”, etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Even in main stream physics it is
              assumed since a long time that the mass of an object is
              nothing fundamental but a dynamical process (e.g. in the
              case of the Higgs model which is so welcome by main stream
              physics). But this means that there is a stage in the view
              into a particle where a particles does not yet have a
              mass. And in this view (I say again: even in main stream
              physics) the existence of some object without mass is not
              exotic but fundamental. So, if I start my view with
              mass-less objects, at least at this point I am fully
              congruent with standard physics.<br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Chip<o:p></o:p></p>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Albrecht<br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
                      Albrecht Giese [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de">mailto:genmail@a-giese.de</a>]
                      <br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 08, 2016 3:36 PM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> Chip Akins <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><chipakins@gmail.com></a>;
                      'Nature of Light and Particles - General
                      Discussion' <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                        href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] inertia</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p>Hi Chip,<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p>what is a wave? A wave is a field which fluctuates in a
                somewhat regular way. And what is a field? A field is a
                human abstraction to describe the influence of a charge.
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p>Of course a wave can have a positive and a negative
                region. That is the case if the wave is caused by
                positive and negative charges. So, if a photon can be
                identified with a wave, there must be charges of both
                sign in a photon. - Any other understanding of a field
                or of a wave is in my view a typical mystification as we
                know it from QM. Why refer to such mystifications if
                they are not necessary? I have understood that the goal
                of all of us (who are looking for particle models) is to
                make the picture as simple as possible. And that should
                mean: No mystifications, so no fields without a cause,
                no waves without a cause. Isn't that simple?<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p>Albrecht<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">Am 04.06.2016 um 16:52 schrieb Chip
                  Akins:<o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Albrecht<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                <p>No.  A wave in space could easily have a positive
                  region and a negative region and still be one wave. So
                  your statement “This is one of the indications that a
                  photon has to be composite.” Is not really correct.<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p> <o:p></o:p></p>
                <p>Chip<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                <div>
                  <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
                    1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
                        General [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                        <b>On Behalf Of </b>Albrecht Giese<br>
                        <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 04, 2016 9:41 AM<br>
                        <b>To:</b> Richard Gauthier <a
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com"><richgauthier@gmail.com></a></a><br>
                        <b>Cc:</b> Nature of Light and Particles -
                        General Discussion <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a><br>
                        <b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] inertia</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                <p>Hello Richard,<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p>the experimental evidence that a photon must be a
                  composite object happens e.g. in every radio exchange.
                  The photon interacts with electric charges, this is
                  only possible if one assumes that the photon has
                  electric charge. Now, as it is electrically neutral as
                  a whole, there must be a balance of positive and
                  negative electric charge(s). Those have to have some
                  separation as otherwise they could not react with an
                  outside charge. This is one of the indications that a
                  photon has to be composite.<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p>The other way to understand the photon is the way of
                  quantum mechanics. In the view of QM the photon is
                  merely a quantum of energy. Any further understanding
                  of it is - by the view of QM - not possible. To treat
                  a photon physically and quantitatively requires the
                  use of the QM formalism, however, (as usual at QM)
                  without a direct understanding. - This is the position
                  of QM which is formally allows for a point-like
                  photon. But I think that no one in our group is
                  willing to follow QM in this respect. All efforts
                  undertaken here come from the desire to have a
                  physical understanding. And this includes necessarily
                  (in my view) that the photon is composite.<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Albrecht<br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <o:p></o:p></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Am 03.06.2016 um 00:53 schrieb
                    Richard Gauthier:<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Hello Albrecht,<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">   My electron model is built
                      of a single circulating spin-1/2 charged photon.
                      It is not built “by photons”. I know of no
                      experimental evidence that a photon is a composite
                      particle as you claim. Please cite any accepted
                      experimental evidence that a photon is a composite
                      particle. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">       Richard<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  <div>
                    <blockquote
                      style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">On Jun 2, 2016, at 1:37 PM,
                          Albrecht Giese <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de">genmail@a-giese.de</a>>
                          wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hello
                            Richard,<o:p></o:p></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Zero
                            evidence for a composite particle? I think
                            that the evidence for a composite particle
                            model is very obvious:<o:p></o:p></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">- 
                            The model explains the mass and the momentum
                            of a particle with NO new parameters, from
                            the scratch<br>
                            -  The model explains the magnetic moment of
                            a particle classically with no new
                            parameters<br>
                            -  The model explains the constancy of the
                            spin classically<br>
                            -  The model explains the equation E = h*f
                            classically (was never deduced before)<br>
                            -  The model explains the relativistic
                            increase of mass and the mass-energy
                            relation E=m*c^2 independent of Einstein's
                            space-time ideas.<o:p></o:p></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">And
                            what is the evidence that the electron is
                            NOT a composite particle? Your electron
                            model is built by photons, where the photon
                            is also a composite particle. So, what?<o:p></o:p></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I
                            do not know any other particle models with
                            this ability. Do you? Such properties are
                            taken as a good evidence in physics. Or why
                            do main stream physics trust in the
                            existence of an up-quark and a down-quark?
                            For both there was no direct evidence in any
                            experiment. The reason to accept their
                            existence is the fact that this assumption
                            makes some other facts understandable. - The
                            model of a composite particle is in no way
                            weaker.<o:p></o:p></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Albrecht<o:p></o:p></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">Am 31.05.2016 um 20:19
                              schrieb Richard Gauthier:<o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote
                            style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">Hello Albrecht and
                                all,<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">  Since there is zero
                                experimental evidence that the electron
                                is a composite particle, I will no
                                longer comment on Albrecht's electron
                                model, which postulates as a principal
                                feature that the electron is a composite
                                particle, unless new experimental
                                evidence is found that the electron is a
                                composite particle after all.<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">  Galileo’s and
                                Newton's “law of inertia" is clearly an
                                expression of conservation of momentum
                                of objects or “bodies” in the absence of
                                an imposed external net force. It
                                revolutionized mechanics because
                                Aristotle had taught otherwise. <o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">  If a resting
                                electron is a circulating light-speed
                                electrically charged photon with
                                circulating momentum Eo/c, then an
                                external force F on the electron equals
                                the additional rate of change of
                                momentum dp/dt of the circulating
                                charged photon corresponding to that
                                external force: F=dp/dt ,  beyond the
                                constant rate of change of momentum of
                                the circulating charged photon. The
                                ratio of this applied force F (for
                                example due to an applied electric
                                field) to the circulating charged
                                photon’s additional acceleration “a" is
                                called the electron's inertial mass and
                                is defined by F=ma or m=F/a . There is
                                no separate mass-stuff or inertia-stuff
                                to be accelerated in a particle. There
                                is only the circulating momentum Eo/c of
                                the circling speed-of-light particle
                                with rest energy Eo , that is being
                                additionally accelerated by the applied
                                force F.  Since the value m = Eo/c^2 of
                                a resting particle (derived from the
                                rate of change of the circulating
                                momentum Eo/c as compared to its
                                centripetal acceleration) is the same
                                value in different reference frames, it
                                is called the particle’s invariant mass
                                m, but this invariant mass m is still
                                derived from the resting particle’s
                                internally circulating momentum Eo/c .
                                 If the electron is moving
                                relativistically at v < c, it has an
                                additional linear momentum p=gamma mv,
                                which when added vectorially to the
                                transverse circulating momentum Eo/c
                                gives by the Pythagorean theorem a total
                                circulating vector momentum P=gamma Eo/c
                                = gamma mc=E/c  where E is the
                                electron’s total energy E=gamma mc^2.
                                 This is the origin of the electron’s
                                relativistic energy-momentum equation
                                E^2 = p^2 c^2 + m^2 c^4  which is just
                                another way to write the Pythagorean
                                momentum vector relationship above:  P^2
                                = p^2 + (Eo/c)^2 .<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">  In my
                                understanding, the Higgs field gives a
                                non-zero invariant mass (without being
                                able to predict the magnitude of that
                                mass)  to certain particles according to
                                the relativistic energy-momentum
                                equation,  so that any particle moving
                                at v <  c in a Higgs field has
                                invariant mass m > 0. But the inertia
                                of that invariant mass m is not
                                explained by the action of the Higgs
                                field, in my understanding.<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">  To try to
                                theoretically explain why a photon has
                                momentum p = hf/c and energy E=hf is a
                                separate topic beyond trying to explain
                                why a particle has inertial mass, or
                                resistance to acceleration by an applied
                                force.<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">     Richard<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">  <o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                            <div>
                              <blockquote
                                style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">On May 30, 2016,
                                    at 1:04 PM, Albrecht Giese <<a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                      href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de">genmail@a-giese.de</a></a>>
                                    wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hello
                                      Richard,<o:p></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">your
                                      new paper has again a lot of nice
                                      mathematics. However, it again
                                      does not answer the question of
                                      inertia. As earlier, you relate
                                      the inertial mass of an electron
                                      to the mass of the circling photon
                                      which builds in your understanding
                                      the electron. Then the mass and
                                      the momentum of the electron is
                                      calculated from the mass and
                                      momentum of the photon. <br>
                                      <br>
                                      Such calculation is of course
                                      possible if one follows this
                                      picture of an electron. However,
                                      it does not answer the question of
                                      what the cause of inertia and
                                      momentum of the photon is. You
                                      take this as an 'a priory' fact.
                                      But this is not our present state
                                      of understanding. Physics are able
                                      to go deeper. <br>
                                      <br>
                                      You write in your paper: "The fact
                                      is that the inertial property of
                                      the mass of elementary particles
                                      is not understood". How can you
                                      write this? Main stream physics
                                      have the Higgs model which is
                                      assumed to describe the mass of
                                      elementary particles. And I have
                                      presented a model which uses the
                                      fact that any extended object
                                      inevitably has inertia. The reason
                                      is, as you know, that the fields
                                      of the constituents of an extended
                                      object propagate with the finite
                                      speed of light. If the extension
                                      of an elementary particle is taken
                                      from its magnetic moment, this
                                      model provides very precisely the
                                      mass, the momentum, and a lot of
                                      other parameters and properties of
                                      a particle. <br>
                                      <br>
                                      If you intend to explain the mass
                                      of an electron by the mass of a
                                      photon, you should have an
                                      appropriate explanation of the
                                      mass and other parameters of a
                                      photon. Otherwise I do not see any
                                      real progress in the
                                      considerations of your paper. <br>
                                      <br>
                                      Albrecht<o:p></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <table class="MsoNormalTable"
              style="border:none;border-top:solid #D3D4DE 1.0pt"
              border="1" cellpadding="0">
              <tbody>
                <tr>
                  <td style="width:41.25pt;border:none;padding:13.5pt
                    .75pt .75pt .75pt" width="55">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"
                        target="_blank"><span style="border:solid
                          windowtext
                          1.0pt;padding:0in;text-decoration:none"><img
                            id="_x0000_i1025"
                            src="cid:part14.16D9DF1A.9827BCAD@a-giese.de"
                            alt="Image removed by sender." height="100"
                            border="0" width="100"></span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
                  </td>
                  <td style="width:352.5pt;border:none;padding:12.75pt
                    .75pt .75pt .75pt" width="470">
                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:13.5pt"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#41424E">Virenfrei.
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"
                          target="_blank"><span style="color:#4453EA">www.avast.com</span></a>
                        <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </td>
                </tr>
              </tbody>
            </table>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        <br>
        <table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
          <tbody>
            <tr>
              <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 18px;"><a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"
                  target="_blank"><img moz-do-not-send="true"
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/2016/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange_184x116-v1.png"
                    height="29px"></a></td>
              <td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 17px; color:
                #41424e; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
                sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">Virenfrei. <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                  href="http://www.avast.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.avast.com">www.avast.com</a></a> </td>
            </tr>
          </tbody>
        </table>
        <br>
        <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
        <br>
        <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Wolf@nascentinc.com">Wolf@nascentinc.com</a>
<a href=<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/wolf%40nascentinc.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1">"http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/wolf%40nascentinc.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"</a>>
Click here to unsubscribe
</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  <br /> <table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
        <tr>
      <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 18px;"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><img src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/2016/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange_184x116-v1.png" height="29px" /></a></td>
                <td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 17px; color: #41424e; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">Virenfrei. <a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a>                </td>
        </tr>
</table>
</body>
</html>