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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Hi Richard and Grahame<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>My take on this is that the energy circulating in the electron has been reconfigured regarding it’s spin to that of an electron, and that there is no need to try to preserve the spin properties of the photon since we know the electron does not exhibit the same spin characteristics as a photon. The electron is a different particle from the photon and in my view it does not have a photon inside, but rather the energy of a photon inside, behaving in a new way. Confined differently, spinning differently. Spinning about a different center point… and spinning in three dimensions, instead of spinning in two dimensions as in the photon.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>My earlier and rather naive paper indicated that an electron was a confined photon. But I no longer hold this to be exactly correct.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>However I do think it quite possible (likely) that the wavefront velocity internal to the photon and internal to the electron is sqrt(2) *c as Richard has suggested.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Chip<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dr Grahame Blackwell<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 23, 2016 7:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] double photon cycle, subjective v objective realities<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Hi Richard (also Chip, John W et al),</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Thanks for your response. I see you say "based on the experimental evidence for this" (i.e. electron spin 1/2 at all speeds/energies). Are you saying that you know that such evidence exists? If so, it'd be great to see any references you have for it; if not, we're back to pure supposition, presumably (based on 'accepted wisdom' - which I think we're all agreed is far from being any sort of evidence at all).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>I agree with your observation that the spin of an electron formed from a conventional photon tends to 1(+) as its speed tends to c. I don't yet see this as a problem (unless you have those references as above and they constitute firm proof). I can't see, though, how your model can maintain spin 1/2 over all speeds of electron motion. As I see it (based on a velocity triangle for linear and cyclic components that matches the relationship given by the Relativistic Energy-Momentum Relation, which determines the relative directions of momentum components and so also velocity components), the contribution from your spin-1/2 photon's own spin to the electron's spin about its axis of linear motion will be: v/c x 1/2 = v/(2c) . The contribution from the linear momentum of the photon in its cyclic motion would thus have to be: 1/2 - v/(2c) consistently, as v varies. You describe your cyclic-motion spin component (as I understand it) as: 1/(2gamma^2), which doesn't seem to fit the bill. How do you get those two elements to fit together to neatly give 1/2 in all cases? [NB I've left out the hbar throughout in order to reduce clutter - so I'm talking spin rather than full spin ang. mom. term.] [As an afterthought: the only other parameter that you may be varying is the speed of that circulating photon; as I see it that must be c to fit in with observations on relativistic electrons?]</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Like you, I'd also be very interested to see John W's model of an electron with spin 1/2 at all electron speeds/energies. There are issues here that I certainly can't see a way round at present.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Best regards to all,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Grahame</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid navy 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" title="richgauthier@gmail.com"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Richard Gauthier</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> Saturday, July 23, 2016 9:05 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> Re: [General] double photon cycle, subjective v objective realities<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hello Grahame, Chip, John W and all,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> I appreciate your persistence with this question about the calculated spin of electron models at relativistic energies, and also about the evidence for an experimental value of electron spin of 1/2 at high energies. The second requires a knowledgeable expert high energy physics experimenter’s answer, I think, based on the experimental evidence for this. The first needs to be resolved by people like us who don’t necessarily accept the idea of a point-like electron with intrinsic spin 1/2, but who want our electron models to match the experimental evidence about the electron as closely as possible. I believe that John W said that his latest electron model has spin 1/2 at all energies. I asked him several e-mails back if he knows this about his electron model from a spin calculation with his electron model, or by some symmetry argument. I think we would like to know that this invariant spin 1/2 result for his relativistic electron model comes from a calculation if possible. But I don’t see how John W or anyone else can start with a circling spin 1 photon to get a spin 1/2 resting electron (that part is OK for a double looping 1 Compton wavelength h/mc photon and I think we “double-loopers" are agreed about this), and also also get a spin 1/2 relativistic electron model from the same circulating spin 1 photon, for the reason that we have discussed: more and more of the spin 1 photon’s spin is in the longitudinal direction for a fast moving electron model as the speed of the electron increases towards highly relativistic velocities, so how does this relativistic circulating-spin-1-photon electron model’s spin ever fall much below 1 hbar at highly relativistic velocities?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> This is one reason why I think that an electron model has to be composed of a circling spin 1/2 (and charged) photon from the beginning (in the resting electron), so that this spin 1/2 of the photon model will dominate in the electron model at relativistic velocities, while the contribution to the electron model’s spin in the double-looping resting photon (which is 1/2 hbar in the resting electron) drops off (as 1/gamma^2) towards zero at relativistic electron velocities.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></body></html>