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<p>Richard,</p>
<p>you have written in a preceding mail: <br>
</p>
<p> " ... All electron modelers need to keep in mind the
experimentally determined maximum size of the electron of about
10^-18 m as measured in high energy electron-electron scattering
experiments (at about 30GeV)...."</p>
<p>We have to be aware that the result of the scattering experiments
is not the size of the complete electron but the size of the
object which gives cause to scattering. In these electron-electron
experiments it is the size of the electric charge. Several of us
have a model which says that in the electron there are one or two
sub-objects orbiting. According to these models, the complete
electron has to be much bigger than this charge. So, there is no
conflict between the experimental result of 10<sup>-18</sup> m and
the calculated value of 4*10<sup>-13</sup> m. <br>
</p>
<p>Albrecht</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 09.01.2017 um 19:14 schrieb Richard
Gauthier:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:E39B3DE0-33F1-45CD-A289-1313253896B3@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div class="">Hello Grahame,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Thanks for your persistence. If you stand next to
or walk, run, or fly past an ongoing photon double-slit
experiment with the photons supplied by a laser, your speed with
respect to the experimental apparatus will not affect the fact
that photons are being detected at the screen behind the slits,
with the photon detection locations spatially distributed
statistically according to the well-known double-slit wave
interference pattern. Your speed relative to the double-slit
experimental apparatus will however (according to the
predictions of special relativity) affect the amount of time the
experiment has been running (as measured by your wristwatch) due
to relativistic time dilation. Your speed relative to the
apparatus will also affect your measured distance (using your
own meter sticks) between the double slits and the screen, as
you go by the experiment at different speeds, due to
relativistic length contraction of the double-slit apparatus as
viewed by you traveling at different speeds (or at speed zero
with respect to the apparatus.) </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> The same will be true if electrons are used
rather than photons in a double-slit experiment (whose slits
may however have to be adjusted in size and separation because
electrons are going through the slits instead of photons and the
electrons' de Broglie wavelength and the photons' wavelength may
be different. But the double-slit statistical wave pattern of
electrons detected at the electron detection screen behind the
slits will be the same for electrons (as predicted by their de
Broglie wavelength for their speed relative to the slits) as for
photons at a photon detection screen (using the photon
wavelength for the interference pattern predictions). Whether
you are standing beside the apparatus, moving with the
electrons, or have some other velocity relative to the apparatus
and electrons, the double-slit statistical pattern of electrons
detected at the screen will still be produced.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> According to my electron model the oncoming
spin-1/2 charged photons generate the de Broglie wavelength
quantum matter waves that (in some informational sense at least)
would go through the double slits, so the predicted results at
the screen using my electron model would be the same as the
predicted results using the standard electron description. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> The same question that you are asking about the
moving electron's transverse radius versus slit aperture size
for various observer velocities can also be asked about the
photon’s transverse radius versus slit aperture size, as
measured by different observers traveling at different speeds
relative to the double-slit photon or electron apparatus. You
cannot expect a more precise answer to the electron question
than to the photon question if the electron is composed of a
variety of photon. The answer to the photon question and to the
electron question would be basically the same. That answer would
be: use the predictions of quantum wave interference and
diffraction produced by the electron or photon waves to predict
what pattern of electrons or photons can be detected at the
screen or elsewhere in the double-slit experiment.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Richard</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 9, 2017, at 6:51 AM, Dr Grahame Blackwell
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:grahame@starweave.com" class="">grahame@starweave.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Just
realised that my reply only went to Richard.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Since his
response went to all, some may find my reply of
interest.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Best
regards,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Grahame</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">===========</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt;
font-family: arial;" class="">----- Original Message -----<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<div style="background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228);
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat:
initial initial;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="grahame@starweave.com"
href="mailto:grahame@starweave.com" class="">Dr
Grahame Blackwell</a></div>
<div class=""><b class="">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="richgauthier@gmail.com"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="">Richard
Gauthier</a></div>
<div class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, January
09, 2017 1:30 PM</div>
<div class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] On
particle radius</div>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Hi
Richard and all,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Thanks
for your detailed response, most of which seems to be a
re-run of your reasoning that you've presented before
rather than relating to my specific question (more on
that below). As with Chip's comments, I'll study this
with interest in the light of my own findings and
understanding.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">With
regard to my 'aperture' question/thought-experiment: I
agree completely that of course there's a probabilistic
element to passage of the electron through the gap -
that's a good point that you make. Unfortunately it
doesn't do anything to reduce the significance of my
argument.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">In your
final para you observe: "<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><font class=""
face="Times New Roman" size="3">I think one would find
a higher probability of finding fast-moving (v=0.9c)
electrons on the other side of a small enough aperture
as compared to the probability of finding slow-moving
(v=0.1c) electrons on the other side of the same
small aperture</font>"; on this we are agreed (if we
accept the premise of reduced particle size with speed -
which I don't, but we'll run with that here). If, in
accordance with SR principles, we now shift to the
perspective of the electron's rest-frame, what we get is
static electrons having a higher probability of passing
through a fast-moving orifice than they do of passing
through that orifice when it's moving more slowly. How
do you explain that, if it's not by virtue of that
orifice increasing in size with increasing speed?
Probabilities don't simply change without circumstances
changing, and this appears to be the only credible
explanation for such variation.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">So I'm
still waiting for the explanation as to why that
aperture increases in size with increasing speed, which
appears to be a necessary condition for satisfaction of
SR reciprocity of reference frames (without which SR
breaks down). [If you have an alternative explanation
for probability of passage of static electrons through
an orifice varying in this way with speed of motion of
that orifice, then of course that would be of interest.]</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Best
regards,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Grahame</font></div>
<blockquote style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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rgb(0, 0, 128); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style:
solid; padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left:
5px; margin-right: 0px;" class="" type="cite">
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial;" class="">----- Original
Message -----<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial; background-color: rgb(228,
228, 228); background-position: initial initial;
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><b
class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="richgauthier@gmail.com"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="">Richard
Gauthier</a></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial;" class=""><b class="">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
class="">Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="grahame@starweave.com"
href="mailto:grahame@starweave.com" class="">Dr
Grahame Blackwell</a></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial;" class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, January
09, 2017 6:26 AM</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial;" class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] On
particle radius</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Hi Grahame and all,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Thanks for your question about how I
justify the reduced transverse radius of the helical
trajectory of the charged photon model with velocity as
R=Ro/gamma^2, where Ro=hbar/2mc (See below for the
aperture question.) All electron modelers need to keep
in mind the experimentally determined maximum size of
the electron of about 10^-18 m as measured in high
energy electron-electron scattering experiments (at
about 30GeV). The R=Ro/gamma^2 result above for the
trajectory radius of the spin 1/2 charged photon, when
added to the actual radius R1=L/4pi = Ro/gamma of my
detailed spin 1/2 charged photon model (described
briefly in this forum in the past), gives a total
transverse helical radius Rtotal = Ro/gamma^2 + Ro/gamma
= Ro ( 1/gamma^2 + 1/gamma) where Ro=hbar/2mc . This
total transverse radius Rtotal of the charged photon
electron model is dominated by the spin 1/2 photon's
radius in high electron energy scattering to give
Rtotal -> Ro/gamma , consistent with these
experimental results.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> On the theoretical side, the R=Ro/gamma^2
result is derived from setting the circulating charged
photon's energy E=hf equal to electron's total energy
formula E=gamma mc^2 and solving for the photon's
wavelength L=h/(gamma mc). This result of decreasing
charged photon wavelength L with increasing electron
velocity is used together with the increasing
double-looping frequency f=2 gamma mc^2 with increasing
electron velocity of the helically double-looping photon
. The result is a quantitative geometrical helical model
for the trajectory of the spin 1/2 charged photon. The
helical radius R=Ro/gamma^2 of the trajectory emerges
naturally from both the increasing double-looping
frequency and the decreasing wavelength of the spin 1/2
charged photon with increasing electron speed. I showed
that this result is also the case for Vivian’s
helically-circulating-photon particle model when it is
corrected to include the decreasing wavelength of the
circulating photon associated with the particle’s
increasing speed, which he had left out of his
derivation. The de Broglie wavelength L-compton =
h/(gamma mv) falls out easily from this spin 1/2 charged
photon wavelength L=h/(gamma mc) result. I don’t think
John and Martin used this reduced photon-wavelength
relationship L=h/gamma mc in their 1997
electron-modeling article. You also don’t use it in your
particle model. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Your circulating-photon-like object
particle model maintains a constant transverse radius as
the speed (and energy) of the moving particle increases.
The frequency of helical rotation of your photon-like
object therefore actually decreases as 1/gamma with
increasing particle speed. But based on energy
considerations the circulating photon frequency of a
helically-moving-photon model should INCREASE with the
particle’s energy in proportion to gamma due to E=gamma
mc^2 for the total energy of a moving particle with
mass. De Broglie’s own derivation of the de Broglie
wavelength incorporated both an increasing frequency
(due to increasing electron energy) with electron speed,
and also a seemingly contradictory decreasing frequency
with increasing electron speed (due to the relativistic
time dilation effect.) He rationalized both of these
frequencies using his “harmony of phases” argument. But
your particle model doesn’t contain the increasing
frequency with photon energy or particle energy at all
(as far as I know). We have previously discussed the
problem of your particle model’s spin at relativistic
energies. If your particle is composed of a spin 1 hbar
circulating photon (or even a spin 1/2 hbar circulating
photon) , either of these spins will add to the orbital
spin of your electron model that (due to its constant
radius with increasing particle speed) remains a
constant 1/2 hbar with increasing speed of your electron
model. This gives your electron model a total spin of 1
1/2 hbar or 1 hbar (depending the spin 1 or spin 1/2 of
the photon model you use) at highly relativistic
velocities, which contradicts the experimental spin 1/2
for an electron at all velocities. With my model (and
Vivian’s corrected model) the orbital contribution of
spin 1/2 hbar (which is correct for a slowly moving
electron) decreases rapidly to zero (as 1/gamma^2) at
relativistic particle velocities, and the spin 1/2 of
the helically circulating photon becomes the spin 1/2 of
the electron model itself at relativistic energies.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> As for the question of whether a
fast-moving (with v=0.9c) electron can go through an
aperture with a radial size that might block a slower
moving electron (with v=0.1c) , I think that one has to
appeal to the photon-like quantum wave nature of the
electron to answer the question. My charged-photon
electron model is proposed to generate de Broglie
wavelength quantum waves in its longitudinal direction
of motion that would interact with an aperture or slit
(or 2 slits) and predict (by quantum wave diffraction
and interference effects) the probability of detecting
electrons at a screen on the other side of the aperture,
whether for slow moving electrons or for fast moving
electrons. Moving electrons are not like wooden pegs
that one tries to fit through various hole sizes
relative to the size of the electron peg. But In general
I think one would find a higher probability of finding
fast-moving (v=0.9c) electrons on the other side of a
small enough aperture as compared to the probability of
finding slow-moving (v=0.1c) electrons on the other
side of the same small aperture. There should be no
contradiction in this result, whether an observer is in
the inertial frame of the moving electron, or stands
next to the aperture that individual electrons are
passing (or not passing) through.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Richard</div>
<div class=""> </div>
</blockquote>
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
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display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br
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