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<p>Jumping in here I think we must all be careful to the fact that
we do not measure "see" particles but rather interpret
interactions between our measuring instruments and interpret such
measurements into models of possible causes.</p>
<p>As long as we assume pint particles the interaction and cause are
at the same place, but in almost all cases some internal structure
of finite size must actually be conceived hence a difference
between interaction location and particle size must be considered.</p>
<p>I do not necessarily agree with Albrecht's electron model ,
mainly because I see unresolved complexities in dual rotating
charge at the speed of light</p>
<p>But whatever model is used to replace point particles the
distinction between actual and interaction size must be
considered.</p>
<p>Wolf<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/10/2017 1:53 PM, Albrecht Giese
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:d7ad6758-6429-839f-8b42-c487672a08ee@a-giese.de"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
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<p>Richard,</p>
<p>you have written in a preceding mail: <br>
</p>
<p> " ... All electron modelers need to keep in mind the
experimentally determined maximum size of the electron of about
10^-18 m as measured in high energy electron-electron scattering
experiments (at about 30GeV)...."</p>
<p>We have to be aware that the result of the scattering
experiments is not the size of the complete electron but the
size of the object which gives cause to scattering. In these
electron-electron experiments it is the size of the electric
charge. Several of us have a model which says that in the
electron there are one or two sub-objects orbiting. According to
these models, the complete electron has to be much bigger than
this charge. So, there is no conflict between the experimental
result of 10<sup>-18</sup> m and the calculated value of 4*10<sup>-13</sup>
m. <br>
</p>
<p>Albrecht</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 09.01.2017 um 19:14 schrieb
Richard Gauthier:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:E39B3DE0-33F1-45CD-A289-1313253896B3@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div class="">Hello Grahame,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Thanks for your persistence. If you stand next
to or walk, run, or fly past an ongoing photon double-slit
experiment with the photons supplied by a laser, your speed
with respect to the experimental apparatus will not affect the
fact that photons are being detected at the screen behind the
slits, with the photon detection locations spatially
distributed statistically according to the well-known
double-slit wave interference pattern. Your speed relative to
the double-slit experimental apparatus will however (according
to the predictions of special relativity) affect the amount of
time the experiment has been running (as measured by your
wristwatch) due to relativistic time dilation. Your speed
relative to the apparatus will also affect your measured
distance (using your own meter sticks) between the double
slits and the screen, as you go by the experiment at different
speeds, due to relativistic length contraction of the
double-slit apparatus as viewed by you traveling at different
speeds (or at speed zero with respect to the apparatus.) </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> The same will be true if electrons are used
rather than photons in a double-slit experiment (whose slits
may however have to be adjusted in size and separation because
electrons are going through the slits instead of photons and
the electrons' de Broglie wavelength and the photons'
wavelength may be different. But the double-slit statistical
wave pattern of electrons detected at the electron detection
screen behind the slits will be the same for electrons (as
predicted by their de Broglie wavelength for their speed
relative to the slits) as for photons at a photon detection
screen (using the photon wavelength for the interference
pattern predictions). Whether you are standing beside the
apparatus, moving with the electrons, or have some other
velocity relative to the apparatus and electrons, the
double-slit statistical pattern of electrons detected at the
screen will still be produced.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> According to my electron model the oncoming
spin-1/2 charged photons generate the de Broglie wavelength
quantum matter waves that (in some informational sense at
least) would go through the double slits, so the predicted
results at the screen using my electron model would be the
same as the predicted results using the standard electron
description. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> The same question that you are asking about
the moving electron's transverse radius versus slit aperture
size for various observer velocities can also be asked about
the photon’s transverse radius versus slit aperture size, as
measured by different observers traveling at different speeds
relative to the double-slit photon or electron apparatus. You
cannot expect a more precise answer to the electron question
than to the photon question if the electron is composed of a
variety of photon. The answer to the photon question and to
the electron question would be basically the same. That answer
would be: use the predictions of quantum wave interference and
diffraction produced by the electron or photon waves to
predict what pattern of electrons or photons can be detected
at the screen or elsewhere in the double-slit experiment.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Richard</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 9, 2017, at 6:51 AM, Dr Grahame
Blackwell <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:grahame@starweave.com" class="">grahame@starweave.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Just
realised that my reply only went to Richard.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Since
his response went to all, some may find my reply of
interest.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Best
regards,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Grahame</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">===========</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt; font-family:
arial;" class="">----- Original Message -----<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
<div style="background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228);
background-position: initial initial;
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><b
class="">From:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="grahame@starweave.com"
href="mailto:grahame@starweave.com" class="">Dr
Grahame Blackwell</a></div>
<div class=""><b class="">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="richgauthier@gmail.com"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="">Richard
Gauthier</a></div>
<div class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday,
January 09, 2017 1:30 PM</div>
<div class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
On particle radius</div>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br
class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Hi
Richard and all,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Thanks
for your detailed response, most of which seems to be
a re-run of your reasoning that you've presented
before rather than relating to my specific question
(more on that below). As with Chip's comments, I'll
study this with interest in the light of my own
findings and understanding.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">With
regard to my 'aperture' question/thought-experiment: I
agree completely that of course there's a
probabilistic element to passage of the electron
through the gap - that's a good point that you make.
Unfortunately it doesn't do anything to reduce the
significance of my argument.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">In your
final para you observe: "<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><font class=""
face="Times New Roman" size="3">I think one would
find a higher probability of finding fast-moving
(v=0.9c) electrons on the other side of a small
enough aperture as compared to the probability of
finding slow-moving (v=0.1c) electrons on the
other side of the same small aperture</font>"; on
this we are agreed (if we accept the premise of
reduced particle size with speed - which I don't, but
we'll run with that here). If, in accordance with SR
principles, we now shift to the perspective of the
electron's rest-frame, what we get is static electrons
having a higher probability of passing through a
fast-moving orifice than they do of passing through
that orifice when it's moving more slowly. How do you
explain that, if it's not by virtue of that orifice
increasing in size with increasing speed?
Probabilities don't simply change without
circumstances changing, and this appears to be the
only credible explanation for such variation.</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">So I'm
still waiting for the explanation as to why that
aperture increases in size with increasing speed,
which appears to be a necessary condition for
satisfaction of SR reciprocity of reference frames
(without which SR breaks down). [If you have an
alternative explanation for probability of passage of
static electrons through an orifice varying in this
way with speed of motion of that orifice, then of
course that would be of interest.]</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Best
regards,</font></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font
class="" face="Arial" color="#000080" size="2">Grahame</font></div>
<blockquote style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 128);
border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;
padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px;
margin-right: 0px;" class="" type="cite">
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial;" class="">----- Original
Message -----<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial; background-color: rgb(228,
228, 228); background-position: initial initial;
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><b
class="">From:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="richgauthier@gmail.com"
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="">Richard
Gauthier</a></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial;" class=""><b class="">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="">Nature
of Light and Particles - General Discussion</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="grahame@starweave.com"
href="mailto:grahame@starweave.com" class="">Dr
Grahame Blackwell</a></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial;" class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday,
January 09, 2017 6:26 AM</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height:
normal; font-family: arial;" class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General]
On particle radius</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Hi Grahame and all,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Thanks for your question about how I
justify the reduced transverse radius of the helical
trajectory of the charged photon model with velocity
as R=Ro/gamma^2, where Ro=hbar/2mc (See below for the
aperture question.) All electron modelers need to keep
in mind the experimentally determined maximum size of
the electron of about 10^-18 m as measured in high
energy electron-electron scattering experiments (at
about 30GeV). The R=Ro/gamma^2 result above for the
trajectory radius of the spin 1/2 charged photon,
when added to the actual radius R1=L/4pi = Ro/gamma
of my detailed spin 1/2 charged photon model
(described briefly in this forum in the past), gives a
total transverse helical radius Rtotal = Ro/gamma^2 +
Ro/gamma = Ro ( 1/gamma^2 + 1/gamma) where
Ro=hbar/2mc . This total transverse radius Rtotal of
the charged photon electron model is dominated by the
spin 1/2 photon's radius in high electron energy
scattering to give Rtotal -> Ro/gamma , consistent
with these experimental results.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> On the theoretical side, the
R=Ro/gamma^2 result is derived from setting the
circulating charged photon's energy E=hf equal to
electron's total energy formula E=gamma mc^2 and
solving for the photon's wavelength L=h/(gamma mc).
This result of decreasing charged photon wavelength L
with increasing electron velocity is used together
with the increasing double-looping frequency f=2 gamma
mc^2 with increasing electron velocity of the
helically double-looping photon . The result is a
quantitative geometrical helical model for the
trajectory of the spin 1/2 charged photon. The helical
radius R=Ro/gamma^2 of the trajectory emerges
naturally from both the increasing double-looping
frequency and the decreasing wavelength of the spin
1/2 charged photon with increasing electron speed. I
showed that this result is also the case for Vivian’s
helically-circulating-photon particle model when it is
corrected to include the decreasing wavelength of the
circulating photon associated with the particle’s
increasing speed, which he had left out of his
derivation. The de Broglie wavelength L-compton =
h/(gamma mv) falls out easily from this spin 1/2
charged photon wavelength L=h/(gamma mc) result. I
don’t think John and Martin used this reduced
photon-wavelength relationship L=h/gamma mc in their
1997 electron-modeling article. You also don’t use it
in your particle model. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Your circulating-photon-like object
particle model maintains a constant transverse radius
as the speed (and energy) of the moving particle
increases. The frequency of helical rotation of your
photon-like object therefore actually decreases as
1/gamma with increasing particle speed. But based on
energy considerations the circulating photon frequency
of a helically-moving-photon model should INCREASE
with the particle’s energy in proportion to gamma due
to E=gamma mc^2 for the total energy of a moving
particle with mass. De Broglie’s own derivation of the
de Broglie wavelength incorporated both an increasing
frequency (due to increasing electron energy) with
electron speed, and also a seemingly contradictory
decreasing frequency with increasing electron speed
(due to the relativistic time dilation effect.) He
rationalized both of these frequencies using his
“harmony of phases” argument. But your particle model
doesn’t contain the increasing frequency with photon
energy or particle energy at all (as far as I know).
We have previously discussed the problem of your
particle model’s spin at relativistic energies. If
your particle is composed of a spin 1 hbar circulating
photon (or even a spin 1/2 hbar circulating photon) ,
either of these spins will add to the orbital spin of
your electron model that (due to its constant radius
with increasing particle speed) remains a constant 1/2
hbar with increasing speed of your electron model.
This gives your electron model a total spin of 1 1/2
hbar or 1 hbar (depending the spin 1 or spin 1/2 of
the photon model you use) at highly relativistic
velocities, which contradicts the experimental spin
1/2 for an electron at all velocities. With my model
(and Vivian’s corrected model) the orbital
contribution of spin 1/2 hbar (which is correct for a
slowly moving electron) decreases rapidly to zero (as
1/gamma^2) at relativistic particle velocities, and
the spin 1/2 of the helically circulating photon
becomes the spin 1/2 of the electron model itself at
relativistic energies.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> As for the question of whether a
fast-moving (with v=0.9c) electron can go through an
aperture with a radial size that might block a slower
moving electron (with v=0.1c) , I think that one has
to appeal to the photon-like quantum wave nature of
the electron to answer the question. My charged-photon
electron model is proposed to generate de Broglie
wavelength quantum waves in its longitudinal direction
of motion that would interact with an aperture or slit
(or 2 slits) and predict (by quantum wave diffraction
and interference effects) the probability of detecting
electrons at a screen on the other side of the
aperture, whether for slow moving electrons or for
fast moving electrons. Moving electrons are not like
wooden pegs that one tries to fit through various hole
sizes relative to the size of the electron peg. But In
general I think one would find a higher probability of
finding fast-moving (v=0.9c) electrons on the other
side of a small enough aperture as compared to the
probability of finding slow-moving (v=0.1c)
electrons on the other side of the same small
aperture. There should be no contradiction in this
result, whether an observer is in the inertial frame
of the moving electron, or stands next to the aperture
that individual electrons are passing (or not passing)
through.</div>
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