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<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Thanks Chip,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>But you <STRONG>still</STRONG>
haven't answered my question!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Understanding momentum isn't a
problem - the issue is getting a clear unequivocal definition that relates to
photons - <STRONG>without</STRONG> it being a circular definition.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>I'm equally well able to look up a
textbook as anyone else; as I said before, such definitions refer to massive
objects - which light isn't. So your first sentence doesn't move the issue
one step forward (I am of course extremely well conversant with the concept of
impulse, which is reciprocally defined in terms of momentum - this doesn't
actually add anything).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>Note that I'm not asking this
question because I'm naive scientifically - on the contrary, I'm asking it
because I believe that the scientific community as a whole is using a concept
that they don't actually understand and are glossing over the fact that they
don't understand it by trotting out the same old equations without clearly
defining the terms in those equations. In this I'm attempting to prod
physics into moving forward rather than going round & round in the same
old circles.</STRONG></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Yes of course p=Ft is a more
appropriate expression (not term) for momentum of a photon - so now can you
identify what F and t are, quantatively, for a photon? I.e. can you define
the force applied by a photon and the duration for which that force is applied -
without simply referring back to momentum or impulse, thus making it a circular
definition? [Personally I think it should be more generally expressed
in terms of integral(p dt) , since I know of no evidence that the 'force'
applied to a particle by a photon is constant - indeed it's unlikely to be, if
the particle is accelerating over that duration.] I don't know of
<STRONG>any</STRONG> source for such information, indeed I question whether that
information has ever been experimentally verified (or even whether it
could).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>Again</STRONG> (for the last
time - I'm beginning to lose the will to live on this one!): can you, or anyone,
provide a clear-cut definition for momentum that can be directly applied to
a photon (rather than implicitly applied to a photon by association
with impulse - which itself is implied by the transfer of momentum - which
is ... ad infinitum). If such a definition is not possible, then I (again)
question the very concept as an intrinsic property of a photon. If you
need more than three lines for your definition then it's unlikely to be a
definition and more likely to be a mathematical rationale.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>As Richard Feynman famously
said: "If you can't explain a concept in terms that a layman [or woman] can
understand, then maybe you need to think very carefully about whether you truly
understand it yourself." </STRONG>I'm not a lay-person, scientifically
speaking - so if there <STRONG>is</STRONG> a comprehensible definition, then I
think I should hopefully be able to understand it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>In hope (but steadily
fading...),</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Grahame</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=chipakins@gmail.com href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com">Chip Akins</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">'Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 30, 2017 1:38
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] On photon
momentum</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Dr Grahame
Blackwell<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Textbook
definition.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">[Conventional momentum is the
product of mass and velocity of a massive object p=mv. Dimensionally momentum
is equivalent to Impulse, which is defined force through time. So p=mv and
p=Ft]. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">For a massless wave in space
p=Ft is the more appropriate term. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Nothing strange or ill-defined
about momentum. It is real, and easy to understand.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Photons do not have mass in the
conventional sense, but they do display the property of momentum (impulse)
when they interact with matter. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Why try to understand the
momentum of a photon? Simple. If waves propagating through space have
momentum, and they also have momentum when confined to form fermions, then we
have the reason why E=mc^2, and we have the reason for inertial
mass.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">My reasoning for exploring
this…<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">If we don’t have a clear
definition of an item which seems to be responsible for properties we observe,
then we should explore the possibilities, rather than just forming opinions
without further inquiry. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Chip<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> General
[mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dr Grahame Blackwell<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 30,
2017 6:15 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
<general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[General] On photon momentum<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dear
Chandra, Chip, John D, everyone,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I really
appreciate all your responses, truly I do.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">BUT -
<STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif">NOBODY appears to have
answered, or even addressed, my
question.</SPAN></STRONG></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">(With
the exception of Chandra, Vladimir and John D, who actually question the
fundamental premise - as I do.)</SPAN></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">My
question was a request for a 'text-book' style DEFINITION OF MOMENTUM
APPLICABLE TO PHOTONS (not just how it's contained, how it propagates,
whatever).</SPAN></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Without
having a clear definition of what momentum IS (in a form applicable to
photons), IMO it's utterly meaningless to try and explain/discuss/dispute
how it propagates or anything else about it. I don't see such a
definition in ANY of the flood of emails following my
question.</SPAN></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">If the
answer is that no such text-book definition exists, then we have to question
whether momentum itself exists as an intrinsic property of
momentum.</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
In this I'm at one with Chandra that momentum is rather a characteristic that
emerges in reactions involving photons or massive particles - nothing more or
less. I'm also with John D that momentum is well characterised by the
motion of a wave, and that energy & momentum aren't two different things -
momentum is an emergent <STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif">consequence</SPAN></STRONG> of
energy.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">[So,
Chandra, contrary to your first response, I actually DO like your
opinion! It's the only one that makes sense to
me.]</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I'd
further agree 100% with Chandra and Vladimir that 'energy flow' through the
ether is rather simply a self-propagating excitation of that ether (Chandra's
CTF, Vladimir's node array) - like plucking a (3-dimensional) guitar string
and seeing the vibration travel along the string: the vibration, the photon,
the material particle, is NOT a physical 'thing' in its own right, it's simply
a state-of-being of the ether, one that is self-sustaining (as a point of
detail, in my early book I liken a material particle to a whirlpool in a
stream - it's not the water, it's the self-sustaining pattern IN the
water).</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">So
unless we have a clear definition of momentum applicable to photons, I see
absolutely no point in trying to explain how it happens - how can you discuss
how something happens when you can't even define what it
is?!</SPAN></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Again:
any offers?</SPAN></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Best
regards to all,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Grahame</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN> </P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>