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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Hi Dr Grahame Blackwell<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Some additional thoughts…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>According to Maxwell’s equations, the energy density of electric and magnetic fields <b>e</b> and <b>b</b> is (e<sup>2</sup> + b<sup>2</sup>)/(8p) and the momentum density is (<b>e</b> x <b>b</b>)/(4pc). Thus in the case of radiation (when <b>e</b> and <b>b</b> are equal and orthogonal) the energy density is E = e<sup>2</sup>/(4p) and the momentum density is p = e<sup>2</sup>/(4pc), so we have the relation p = E/c. Therefore we can show that light pulses of total energy E confined in a particle, contribute E/c<sup>2</sup> to the inertial mass of the particle.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Chip<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dr Grahame Blackwell<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 30, 2017 6:15 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] On photon momentum<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Dear Chandra, Chip, John D, everyone,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>I really appreciate all your responses, truly I do.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>BUT - <strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>NOBODY appears to have answered, or even addressed, my question.</span></strong></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>(With the exception of Chandra, Vladimir and John D, who actually question the fundamental premise - as I do.)</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>My question was a request for a 'text-book' style DEFINITION OF MOMENTUM APPLICABLE TO PHOTONS (not just how it's contained, how it propagates, whatever).</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Without having a clear definition of what momentum IS (in a form applicable to photons), IMO it's utterly meaningless to try and explain/discuss/dispute how it propagates or anything else about it. I don't see such a definition in ANY of the flood of emails following my question.</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>If the answer is that no such text-book definition exists, then we have to question whether momentum itself exists as an intrinsic property of momentum.</span></strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'> In this I'm at one with Chandra that momentum is rather a characteristic that emerges in reactions involving photons or massive particles - nothing more or less. I'm also with John D that momentum is well characterised by the motion of a wave, and that energy & momentum aren't two different things - momentum is an emergent <strong><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>consequence</span></strong> of energy.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>[So, Chandra, contrary to your first response, I actually DO like your opinion! It's the only one that makes sense to me.]</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>I'd further agree 100% with Chandra and Vladimir that 'energy flow' through the ether is rather simply a self-propagating excitation of that ether (Chandra's CTF, Vladimir's node array) - like plucking a (3-dimensional) guitar string and seeing the vibration travel along the string: the vibration, the photon, the material particle, is NOT a physical 'thing' in its own right, it's simply a state-of-being of the ether, one that is self-sustaining (as a point of detail, in my early book I liken a material particle to a whirlpool in a stream - it's not the water, it's the self-sustaining pattern IN the water).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>So unless we have a clear definition of momentum applicable to photons, I see absolutely no point in trying to explain how it happens - how can you discuss how something happens when you can't even define what it is?!</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Again: any offers?</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Best regards to all,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Grahame</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid navy 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> <a href="mailto:chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu" title="chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu">Roychoudhuri, Chandra</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> <a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> Sunday, January 29, 2017 2:23 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> Re: [General] On photon momentum<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:teal'>Hi Chip: Again, my current state of thinking is that even material particles, and hence electrons, do not possess the intrinsic property, we call MOMENTUM. This is unlike the ENERGY contained in its state of excitation (which is the cause of its existence). When v = 0, the momentum, mv, is zero. In Milikan’s oil drop experiment, he made the electron-holding oil drop stationary; so the whole drop, with the electron, had zero velocity; and hence zero momentum. Thus momentum is not an intrinsic property, even for material particles. The momentum-property becomes emergent and measurable only when one kinetic entity transfers part of its kinetic energy to increase the kinetic velocity of another particle.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:teal'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:teal'>Chandra.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><a name="_MailEndCompose"></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;color:teal'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Chip Akins<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 28, 2017 8:54 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] On photon momentum<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Hi Chandra<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I like your thoughts on this subject. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>But one issue is giving me pause. That is simply the need to have momentum circulating in the electron in order for it to possess inertial mass. And therefore, if momentum is created by the energy within the electron as it propagates (circulates) then it seems likely that momentum is also generated by the wave in space propagating linearly. Of course this may not be the case. But it seems the Occam’s preference given the situation. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>But it could be that momentum is only created by the motion of energy when confined such as in the electron, and that momentum is imparted to that structure simply because energy is added when it reacts with EM radiation. I have not preferred this solution because it seems more complex, and less likely, if the laws of physics are uniform for propagating energy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Chip<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Roychoudhuri, Chandra<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 28, 2017 7:08 PM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists..natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] On photon momentum<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Dear Grahame: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>You would not like my opinion! And, I may change my opinion as I grow up learning from others!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>As of now, my personal views are very very different from the mainstream assertions about, “indivisible photon”, its “momentum”, “spin” etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>To me, they are not intrinsic property of EM waves.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>They appear as measurable properties of detecting materials as they interact (respond) to the incident EM wave packets and undergo various physical changes while absorbing energy out of the propagating EM.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>For example, at the instant of emission, we certainly have a discrete quantity of energy (hv) that is released as a result of some quantum transition. That released energy “plucks” the Complex Tension Field (CTF) [or, the plenum , the ether, etc.]. The result of that “plucking” is the emergence of an EM wave packet with the frequency “v”; which then propagates away perpetually as an excitation of the CTF as long as far as the CTF exists. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>“Filtered” polarized light, interaction with<b><i> anisotropic </i></b>material medium will show preferential directional movement implying “angular momentum transfer”, which we have learned to explain as “photon” having “Angular Momentum”.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt'>Chandra.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dr Grahame Blackwell<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 28, 2017 7:12 PM<br><b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists..natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> [General] On photon momentum<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Dear All,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>[Notably Chandra & Chip],</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>I'm having a bit of a problem over this question of: 'How does a photon carry momentum'? (or similar words.)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>It seems to me that in order to even beginning to address this question, one needs a clear definition of 'momentum' that's applicable to the momentum carried by a photon.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>I may be looking in the wrong places (if so please advise), but the only definitions of momentum that I can find either refer to 'mass' or refer to some other phenomenon which in turn refers to momentum - i.e. circular references.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>If I'm going to figure, or be persuaded, how a photon carries momentum I first need to know what momentum IS in respect of a photon (yes, I know it's E/c, that's a measure it's not a definition).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Of course I'm aware of the paper "Light is heavy", but I don't feel it's appropriate just to extract from that some sort of mass-equivalence of a photon. If we do, we get the result that 'm'=E/c^2, so 'm'c = E/c - gives the right result, but appears to be some sort of convoluted self-confirmation (i.e. a circular argument dressed up in fancy clothes). It certainly doesn't DEFINE a photon's momentum, just evaluates it.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Does anyone have a convincing definition of momentum that's applicable to a photon? One that can be used as a firm basis for theorising?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>(I'd be glad if colleagues didn't use this as an excuse to yet again present their own personal theory/model - I'm looking for a definition that would be agreed by all, or at least most, physicists.)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Thanks in anticipation,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy'>Grahame</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="mailto:grahame@starweave.com">grahame@starweave.com</a><br><a href="<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/grahame%40starweave.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/grahame%40starweave.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><br>Click here to unsubscribe<br></a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></body></html>