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<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Dear Chandra, Chip, John D,
everyone,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>I really appreciate all your
responses, truly I do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>BUT - <STRONG>NOBODY appears to have
answered, or even addressed, my question.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>(With the exception of
Chandra, Vladimir and John D, who actually question the fundamental premise
- as I do.)</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>My question was a request for
a 'text-book' style DEFINITION OF MOMENTUM APPLICABLE TO PHOTONS (not just
how it's contained, how it propagates, whatever).</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Without having a clear
definition of what momentum IS (in a form applicable to photons), IMO it's
utterly meaningless to try and explain/discuss/dispute how it propagates or
anything else about it. I don't see such a definition in ANY of the flood
of emails following my question.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial><STRONG>If the answer is that no such
text-book definition exists, then we have to question whether momentum itself
exists as an intrinsic property of momentum.</STRONG> In this I'm at one
with Chandra that momentum is rather a characteristic that emerges in reactions
involving photons or massive particles - nothing more or less. I'm also
with John D that momentum is well characterised by the motion of a wave, and
that energy & momentum aren't two different things - momentum is an emergent
<STRONG>consequence</STRONG> of energy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>[So, Chandra, contrary to your first
response, I actually DO like your opinion! It's the only one that makes
sense to me.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>I'd further agree 100% with Chandra
and Vladimir that 'energy flow' through the ether is rather simply a
self-propagating excitation of that ether (Chandra's CTF, Vladimir's node array)
- like plucking a (3-dimensional) guitar string and seeing the vibration travel
along the string: the vibration, the photon, the material particle, is NOT a
physical 'thing' in its own right, it's simply a state-of-being of the ether,
one that is self-sustaining (as a point of detail, in my early book I liken a
material particle to a whirlpool in a stream - it's not the water, it's the
self-sustaining pattern IN the water).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>So unless we have a clear
definition of momentum applicable to photons, I see absolutely no point in
trying to explain how it happens - how can you discuss how something happens
when you can't even define what it is?!</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Again: any
offers?</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Best regards to all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Grahame</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu
href="mailto:chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu">Roychoudhuri, Chandra</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 29, 2017 2:23
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] On photon
momentum</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: teal; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Hi Chip: Again,
my current state of thinking is that even material particles, and hence
electrons, do not possess the intrinsic property, we call MOMENTUM. This is
unlike the ENERGY contained in its state of excitation (which is the cause of
its existence). When v = 0, the momentum, mv, is zero. In Milikan’s oil drop
experiment, he made the electron-holding oil drop stationary; so the whole
drop, with the electron, had zero velocity; and hence zero momentum. Thus
momentum is not an intrinsic property, even for material particles. The
momentum-property becomes emergent and measurable only when one kinetic entity
transfers part of its kinetic energy to increase the kinetic velocity of
another particle.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: teal; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: teal; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Chandra.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><A name=_MailEndCompose><SPAN
style="COLOR: teal; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></A></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> General
[mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Chip Akins<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 28, 2017 8:54
PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] On photon
momentum<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi Chandra<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I like your thoughts on this
subject. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">But one issue is giving me
pause. That is simply the need to have momentum circulating in the
electron in order for it to possess inertial mass. And therefore, if momentum
is created by the energy within the electron as it propagates (circulates)
then it seems likely that momentum is also generated by the wave in space
propagating linearly. Of course this may not be the case. But it seems the
Occam’s preference given the situation. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">But it could be that momentum is
only created by the motion of energy when confined such as in the electron,
and that momentum is imparted to that structure simply because energy is added
when it reacts with EM radiation. I have not preferred this solution because
it seems more complex, and less likely, if the laws of physics are uniform for
propagating energy.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Chip<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> General [<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Roychoudhuri, Chandra<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January
28, 2017 7:08 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion <<A
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists..natureoflightandparticles.org</A>><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [General] On photon momentum<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear Grahame:
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">You would not like my
opinion! And, I may change my opinion as I grow up learning from
others!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">As of now, my personal views
are very very different from the mainstream assertions about, “indivisible
photon”, its “momentum”, “spin” etc.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">To me, they are not intrinsic
property of EM waves.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">They appear as measurable
properties of detecting materials as they interact (respond) to the incident
EM wave packets and undergo various physical changes while absorbing energy
out of the propagating EM.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">For example, at the instant
of emission, we certainly have a discrete quantity of energy (hv) that is
released as a result of some quantum transition. That released energy “plucks”
the Complex Tension Field (CTF) [or, the plenum , the ether, etc.]. The result
of that “plucking” is the emergence of an EM wave packet with the frequency
“v”; which then propagates away perpetually as an excitation of the CTF as
long as far as the CTF exists. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">“Filtered” polarized light,
interaction with<B><I> anisotropic </I></B>material medium will show
preferential directional movement implying “angular momentum transfer”, which
we have learned to explain as “photon” having “Angular
Momentum”.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Chandra.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> General [<A
href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dr Grahame Blackwell<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 28,
2017 7:12 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
<<A
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists..natureoflightandparticles.org</A>><BR><B>Subject:</B>
[General] On photon momentum<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dear
All,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">[Notably
Chandra & Chip],</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I'm
having a bit of a problem over this question of: 'How does a photon carry
momentum'? (or similar words.)</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">It
seems to me that in order to even beginning to address this question, one
needs a clear definition of 'momentum' that's applicable to the momentum
carried by a photon.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I may
be looking in the wrong places (if so please advise), but the only definitions
of momentum that I can find either refer to 'mass' or refer to some other
phenomenon which in turn refers to momentum - i.e. circular
references.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">If I'm
going to figure, or be persuaded, how a photon carries momentum I first need
to know what momentum IS in respect of a photon (yes, I know it's E/c, that's
a measure it's not a definition).</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Of
course I'm aware of the paper "Light is heavy", but I don't feel it's
appropriate just to extract from that some sort of mass-equivalence of a
photon. If we do, we get the result that 'm'=E/c^2, so 'm'c = E/c -
gives the right result, but appears to be some sort of convoluted
self-confirmation (i.e. a circular argument dressed up in fancy
clothes). It certainly doesn't DEFINE a photon's momentum, just
evaluates it.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Does
anyone have a convincing definition of momentum that's applicable to a
photon? One that can be used as a firm basis for
theorising?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">(I'd
be glad if colleagues didn't use this as an excuse to yet
again present their own personal theory/model - I'm looking for a
definition that would be agreed by all, or at least most,
physicists.)</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Thanks
in anticipation,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Grahame</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
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