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    <p>Albrecht:</p>
    <p>I think I need more time as well to investigate , this claim.</p>
    <p>I  need to get more information for the claim that the
      instantaneous center of mass position of the sun  is 8 minutes
      ahead in its orbit from the apparent  optical position. I'll see
      if I can contact Van flanders and get the details of this
      calculation. Although he says ephemera are calculated from
      Newtonian non relativistic physics with infinite gravity
      propagation and then the optical correction for light flight is
      applied to get the observed location. Any astronomer should know
      the answer , but most just deal with the optical right ascension
      and declination and do not ever consider the gravity effects.<br>
    </p>
    <p>"vectors of any fields originating at a moving object do not
      point to (or from) the visible position of its source but from the
      advanced position, where the object is when the field is
      received." obviously this is not true for sound , and I believe
      would also not be true if there were an "ether"</p>
    <p>"From the view of the Earth the Sun can be taken as being in a
      fixed position" , You are taking a theoretical view point , not an
      observational view point. The sum and earth move relative to each
      other in your theoretical view point, it looks as though the sun
      is moving</p>
    <p>"direction from which the photons arrive. That is obviously not a
      field." Are you taking the QM approach? Photons are particles
      their wave properties are debroglie waves not EM waves. Otherwise
      Em waves are traverse field disturbances are they not.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Lastly I feel there is a confusion in relativity discussions
      between local experiments like the Michelson Morely that happen
      inside a physical structure, which correspond to coordinate frames
      in SRT vs. when we look outside the coordinate frame. The
      statement that one cannot tell if we are moving is  obviously not
      true when we look outside our own frame, i.e. our motion relative
      to the cosmic background. As you know from my Vigier 10 paper. I
      am working on the possibility that space is an internal perceptual
      phenomena like any other personal appearance, and therefore
      connected  the material background from which we are built.
      Therefore as long as we compare observations made within one space
      attached to one configuration of material we get the maxwell,
      Lorenz , SRT, and now Lienard-Wiechert as consistent mathematical
      formulations. Thus as my Vigier paper points out SRT is derivable
      by Einstein because the thought experiments leading to the
      derivatin were carried out in Einsteins imagination space which is
      hosted in the material of his brain. Classic EM is formulated in
      the assumption that there is an independent classical background
      space. If this assumption is wrong, Maxwell may be an over
      simplification as well.</p>
    <p>Do you have a reference for the derivation of the Lorenz
      transforms from Maxwells Equations? What I've found in my texts
      are usually statements that say it is true. I have not seen the
      actual derivation that defines the coordinate frames independently
      of the assumption that the physical laws in all frames should be
      identical. Once you make this independent reality assumption then
      one starts with the assumption that Maxwell equations have the
      same form in two coordinate frames and asks what transformations
      between these frames make that assumption true? But that is
      circular reasoning. <br>
    </p>
    <p>This reasoning is especially irritating for people like me who
      are exploring the possibility that Aristotle was wrong and Plato
      was right. We only see the shadows of reality not reality itself.<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>best wishes,</p>
    <p>Wolf<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p> <br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/14/2017 1:12 PM, Albrecht Giese
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
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      <p>Wolf,</p>
      <p>it is in fact not necessary to follow Einstein's version of
        SRT. I for myself follow the version of Hendrik Lorentz as it is
        based on known physical facts, not on fictitious assumptions
        about space-time. However there are relativistic facts which are
        obvious and independent of any formal version of SRT. That is
        the contraction of fields and the dilation of periodic
        processes. And these are for sure. The calculations according to
        Lienard-Wiechert are based on these fact to my knowledge. At
        present I have started to follow this derivation step by step
        but will need a bit of time.<br>
      </p>
      <p>Do we indeed see the sun in a position which is about 8 minutes
        retarded? From the view of the Earth the Sun can be taken as
        being in a fixed position without making a big mistake. But even
        if the sun would be moving in relation to our planetary system
        that would not matter in this case  The point is that the
        vectors of any fields originating at a moving object do not
        point to (or from) the visible position of its source but from
        the advanced position, where the object is when the field is
        received. </p>
      <p>As far as I understand what you write (or van Flanders writes)
        about the US naval data, these date describe the visible
        position of the sun, so the direction from which the photons
        arrive. That is obviously not a field. And if the direction of
        the gravitational field would be towards the retarded position
        then the orbital speed of the Earth would in fact change with
        time. Which is not the case - But independent of this
        consideration, this case seems particularly simple to me. As
        stated above, from the view of the Earth the Sun can be taken as
        being in a fixed position. With respect to this position the Sun
        has a constant gravitational field in all directions. If now the
        Earth orbits the sun then this steady field will reach the Earth
        as always coming from the centre of the sun. The motion of the
        Earth is of no influence. - The interesting case for this
        problem discussed at other places is the one of a double star.
        If both stars orbit each other then the position of one star
        changes permanently as seen from the other star. In that case
        the direction of the field and the propagation speed of the
        field are of relevance. But also for these cases the
        relativistic calculation seems to show that the fields are
        pointing towards the centre of the orbit following the
        Lienard-Wiechert calculation of potential.<br>
      </p>
      <p>I shall come back here as soon as I am more familiar with this
        case.</p>
      <p>Albrecht<br>
        <br>
      </p>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 11.02.2017 um 20:30 schrieb
        Wolfgang Baer:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote
        cite="mid:0460a32c-368f-27e5-9f84-1c875600a1e7@nascentinc.com"
        type="cite">
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        <p>Albrecht:</p>
        <p>I'll admit that I do not follow the consequences of Special
          Relativity Theory (SRT) as it is worked out in the
          Lienard-Wiechert potential. And since I identified at least a
          half dozen  derivations of these results in the internet I
          assume the math is correct. However we have been to the Vigier
          Conference and seen several presentations criticizing Special
          Relativity <br>
        </p>
        <p>So rather than go through a derivation again, which I do not
          doubt,  I'm trying to make sense of the predicted results. Its
          kind of like seeing SRT calculations and coming up with the
          twin paradox. Something is wrong with SRT<br>
        </p>
        <p>The VanFlanders paper ( I can send another copy for anyone
          who needs it) in the paragraph above "3.3 the solar eclipse
          test" clearly claims that experimental data from the
          Astronomical Almanac produced by the US naval observatory
          shows that the earth is attracted to  a point 8.5 min. ahead
          of its optical position. This means the earth is
          gravitationally attracted to where the sun is <i>Now</i> not
          where the sun was when light was emitted.</p>
        <p>The drawing below shows a simple example of how a light
          emitted from a non-relativistic particle ( 30km/sec) at the
          upper past position will not hit a parallel traveling lower
          particle at some distance achieved during the flight time of
          light and therefore  will receive light at an angle pointing
          to the retarded position. For earth orbit (30Km/sec) which is
          10^4 less than the speed of light relativistic effects are
          10^-8 , i.e.very very small.compared with Newtonian thinking, 
          but the displacement in 8.5 minutes is 15,300km nearly 3 earth
          diameters offset which should be measurable.<br>
        </p>
        <p>I've just gotten some visitors and need to go, but we are
          questioning SRT and the assumption that gravity may move at a
          different speed. so just citing more SRT derivations is not
          convincing. <br>
        </p>
        <p>Why is My diagram and "Eddington" and Flanders wrong? Is
          Flanders lying about his Ephemeris data and its experimental
          content? <br>
        </p>
        <p>Or are we just so brow beaten by SRT that whatever
          derivations we develop from it must be right? <br>
        </p>
        <p>Got to go</p>
        <p>Wolf<br>
        </p>
        <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baerecht
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/2017 12:33 PM, Albrecht
          Giese wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote
          cite="mid:b26e6913-7ce4-42e8-2da3-c9e2b9f2ad58@a-giese.de"
          type="cite">
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          <p>Hi Wolf, and hi Chip and All,<br>
          </p>
          <p>it is correct that the solution is a relativistic
            calculation. In the figure below, the lower circuit "now"
            gets the field from the direction of the higher (small)
            circuit "now". Not so easily understandable by visualisation
            but theoretically confirmed. It has to do with relativistic
            contraction (of space / fields) and with relativistic time
            synchronization.</p>
          <p>If I look into Jackson, to the mentioned p486 and p487,
            then eq. (14.17) describes (unfortunately only) the
            transverse field. But if in this equation the product
            (kappa*R) is replace by the value given in (14.16) then the
            result does not depend on the retarded position P'. -  It
            would be better to have here the field component for the
            longitudinal direction. But even this is an indication that
            the retarded position has no effect.<br>
          </p>
          <p>Regarding the two charges in my model I assume that both
            charges are getting the field of the respective other charge
            by similar considerations. If we assume that charges
            permanently emit exchange particles for the corresponding
            field following QM in this respect, then there are exchange
            particles leaving the one charge and reaching the other one.
            So there is a field (a binding field) at the locations of
            both charges. - But this statement is of course not a
            precise one and I am going to present a detailed calculation
            taking all this into account mathematically.</p>
          <p>And by the way with respect to gravity: This discussion
            which we have started here has kept the physicists busy
            during the entire 19th century (which can be found at
            Wikipedia) The discussion used the arguments of Van
            Flanders, Wolf, and also myself (in the beginning) about the
            influence of retardation to the perspective of the
            gravitational force; but this discussion ended when Special
            Relativity was introduced.</p>
          <p>Best<br>
            Albrecht<br>
          </p>
          <p><br>
          </p>
          <br>
          <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 09.02.2017 um 21:32 schrieb
            Wolfgang Baer:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote
            cite="mid:d0077ef8-27a4-c466-66dc-35ac309cf91c@nascentinc.com"
            type="cite">
            <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
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            <p>What I know about retarded potentials exactly
              corroborates my point</p>
            <p>The potential is retarded yes but go backwards from the
              4Oklock location of the advancing lower particle you will
              see the force vector no longer goes through the orbit
              center. It comes from the retarded position of the source,
              which was at 12Oclock.</p>
            <p>Does retarded potential not mean one must calculate the
              potential from the point sources were in the past ? I'm
              reading Jackson p468 right now</p>
            <p>Its a typical formula first section with no explanation
              of what they mean, but it is clear that my diagram is non
              relativistic and that may be my error.<br>
            </p>
            <p>However a very slow moving particle very far away moving
              transversely would have almost no relativistic correction
              and still be seen. So in this case would the observer (
              big circle) not see the source at the retarded past
              position. And if that is the case would he not "see" the
              force vector from the retarded past position?<br>
            </p>
            <p><img src="cid:part2.A1A8DA99.A9448F36@nascentinc.com"
                alt=""></p>
            <p>And that is exactly Flanders Argument regarding the
              motion of the sun relative to an observer on the earth.
              The EM force vector points to the retarded position not
              the current position. But gravity orbits are calculated as
              though the force vector points to the actual Now position.
              <br>
            </p>
            <p>In my diagram the past upper particle is at 12Oclock and
              when the Light(EM INFLUENCE) gets to the lower particle at
              4 Oclock it sees the upper particle at its past 12O'clock
              position. Thus the force vector is no longer radially
              symmetric but has a tangential component. <br>
            </p>
            <p>How your dual orbiting charge model traveling at "c"
              works out I do not know. But if the E filed is squeezed in
              the velocity direction then <br>
            </p>
            <p><img src="cid:part3.D93596BB.F1B035C8@nascentinc.com"
                alt="">then the two particles would never influence each
              other since the flat plane of E fileds would rotate and
              always miss the</p>
            <p>other particle. So what creates the field holding the
              particles in orbit? <br>
            </p>
            <p>best<br>
            </p>
            <p>wolf<br>
            </p>
            <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
            <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/8/2017 12:34 PM, Albrecht
              Giese wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote
              cite="mid:c816e475-f979-9708-efd1-9b5490991f46@a-giese.de"
              type="cite">
              <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
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              <p>Hi!</p>
              <p>No, it is not the point that 'Albrecht has some other
                ideas'. But it is the situation solved by the treatment
                of "retarded potential" as I have already written. This
                is classical Main Stream physics. <br>
              </p>
              <p>I can only repeat to refer to textbooks about retarded
                potential which is besides my favourite French the well
                known Landau&Lifschitz about the so called
                Lienard-Wiechert potential (and I think also in
                Jackson). From that calculation follows that the forces
                arrive in a radial direction at the particles / charges
                and so there is no tangential component. <br>
              </p>
              <p>Van Flanders has obviously overlooked this fact which
                is - to say it again - standard classical physics.</p>
              <p>Best, Albrecht<br>
              </p>
              <br>
              <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 08.02.2017 um 20:02
                schrieb Wolfgang Baer:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote
                cite="mid:ddf67d39-119e-0554-1273-7b3f4610e861@nascentinc.com"
                type="cite">
                <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
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                <p>I agree one must integrate the effect, but since the
                  instantaneous snapshot shown below generate a small
                  but not zero tangential force along the trajectory if
                  you rotate the entire diagram by an infinitesimal
                  angle the same force will move around the cycle in the
                  same direction , so there would be no cancellation but
                  an accumulation of the tangential force build up.</p>
                <p>I believe the only way to avoid the problem is to
                  have an attractive force at the center so only radial
                  force fields are encountered, or have infinite
                  propagation speed which is what TOm Vam Flandern's
                  paper tried to prove.</p>
                <p>Albrecht has some other ideas</p>
                <p>Best, wolf<br>
                </p>
                <p><br>
                </p>
                <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
                <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/5/2017 5:26 PM, <a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                    href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>
                  wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote
cite="mid:trinity-f11d112e-e338-4304-9917-5b7634fc0a8c-1486344379031@3capp-webde-bs15"
                  type="cite">
                  <div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
                    <div>
                      <div>Hey Wolf:</div>
                      <div> </div>
                      <div>The actual force at any reception point is
                        not just that from one position of the sending
                        charge, but an integral over all positions of
                        the sending charge intersecting the past light
                        cone of the sender.  I don't know what the
                        answer is and I'm too tired at the moment to do
                        the math.  Looks too like it might be very
                        involved!  Cone intersecting a spiral, etc. 
                        3/4-D, lots of unknown integrals....</div>
                      <div> </div>
                      <div>Also, a positron-electron pair should be
                        essentiall invisible as it is charge nutral,
                        i.e., won't interact with our only agent of
                        "seeing."  Except ...??</div>
                      <div> </div>
                      <div>---Al</div>
                      <div> 
                        <div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px
                          10px; padding: 10px 0 10px 10px;
                          border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5; word-wrap:
                          break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                          -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
                          <div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
                            05. Februar 2017 um 21:47 Uhr<br>
                            <b>Von:</b> "Wolfgang Baer" <a
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                              href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com"><wolf@nascentinc.com></a><br>
                            <b>An:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                              href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
                            <b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] Albrecht
                            Instantaneous gravity force</div>
                          <div name="quoted-content">
                            <div style="background-color:
                              rgb(255,255,255);">
                              <p>Albrecht:</p>
                              <p>I do not see how your example with
                                electric forces applies to the
                                gravitational example.in van Flanders
                                1998 paper , or for that matter to your
                                model of an elementary particle. Has
                                anyone ever seen positron electron
                                orbiting each other?</p>
                              <p> </p>
                              <p>Consider two particles instantly at 10
                                and 6 Oclock send out a force that
                                propagates radially from their
                                instantaneous position</p>
                              <p><img alt=""
                                  src="cid:part9.468CEABE.A863D53A@nascentinc.com"
                                  height="295" width="392"></p>
                              <p>A time of flight delay caused by field
                                propagating spherically to reach the
                                other particle after it has moved around
                                the orbit.</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">This means there is
                                an angle between the purely radial from
                                orbit center direction by an angle<span
                                  style="font-size: 18.0pt;"> Θ</span></p>
                              <p> </p>
                              <p>This angle will give a force vector
                                along the orbit path would this not
                                change the momentum??</p>
                              <p>The only way I know Bohr atom works is
                                because the proton is at the center of
                                the electron orbit so no matter where
                                the electron moves around the orbit it
                                will experience a radial only force.</p>
                              <p>I believe van Flanders 1998 paper
                                claims that ephemerus  data was
                                calculated assuming instantaneous
                                gravity force projection and which seem
                                to match visual position when corrected
                                for the time delay between sources and
                                observer. And if the time delay for
                                gravity were introduced it would show up
                                in orbit corrections not actually seen.
                                  Is he making a mistake?</p>
                              <p>best,</p>
                              <p>Wolf</p>
                              <pre class="moz-signature">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='wolf@NascentInc.com'; return false;" target="_blank">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
                              <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/31/2017
                                1:35 PM, Albrecht Giese wrote:</div>
                              <blockquote>
                                <p>Wolf,</p>
                                <p>regarding the <i>speed of
                                    gravitational influence</i>:</p>
                                <p>I have looked into the mentioned
                                  paper of Van Flanders in 1998 and
                                  particularly his arguments why
                                  gravitational influences must
                                  propagate instantly, not at the speed
                                  of light. I do not follow his
                                  arguments because he has overlooked an
                                  important point.</p>
                                <p>His argument (also that one cited
                                  from Eddington) is: If the speed of
                                  gravitational propagation is limited
                                  (e.g. to c) then in the case of two
                                  celestial bodies each body would not
                                  see the other one at its actual 
                                  position but at a past position. This
                                  would destroy the conservation of
                                  momentum. -  However, this is not the
                                  case.</p>
                                <p>One simple example to see that this
                                  argument cannot be true. We can
                                  imagine a set up of two <i>massive </i>bodies
                                  which orbit each other and which are
                                  bound to each other by an electrical
                                  force; this is easily possible by
                                  putting an appropriate electrical
                                  charge of different sign onto both
                                  bodies. Also the electrical force is,
                                  as we know, restricted to the speed of
                                  light. But it is very clear that this
                                  set up would keep the momentum of both
                                  bodies and would steadily move in a
                                  stable way.</p>
                                <p>How does this work? The phenomenon is
                                  the so called "retarded potential". It
                                  has the effect that, even though both
                                  charges are seen at a past position by
                                  the other charge, the force vector
                                  points to the <i>actual </i>position
                                  of the other one.</p>
                                <p>If we now assume that gravity is a
                                  force (independent of what Einstein
                                  talks about curvature of space), then
                                  the same rules of retarded potential
                                  apply to gravity. And so there is no
                                  change of momentum even though the
                                  effect of gravity is limited to the
                                  speed of light.</p>
                                <p>Does this provide some clarification?</p>
                                <p>Albrecht</p>
                                 
                                <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
                                  22.01.2017 um 20:52 schrieb Wolfgang
                                  Baer:</div>
                                <blockquote>
                                  <p>Al:</p>
                                  <p>I think the "where is the evidence"
                                    argument is no longer powerful
                                    because so many things happening in
                                    physics have little or even
                                    contradictory evidence. I'm just
                                    reading Van Flanders 1998 "the speed
                                    of gravity" Physics Letters A250
                                    1-11 which makes a good case for
                                    gravity influences influences moving
                                    instantly - not at the speed of
                                    light.</p>
                                  <p>However I like your idea of only
                                    interactions - in fact I'm
                                    developing a theory along those
                                    lines by modeling nothing as an
                                    empty page and requiring material
                                    formatting of the page as an
                                    explicit field of space cells. This
                                    still allows fields as a shortcut
                                    for calculating  interactions from
                                    multiple distant cells, but nothing
                                    remains nothing, if there are no
                                    cells to host interactions i.e.
                                    sources and sinks, then there is no
                                    influence propagating. It takes some
                                    material to propagate influences.</p>
                                  <p>I would be very curious to read how
                                    your "one way out" formulates this
                                    problem.</p>
                                  <p>One of my hang ups is that any
                                    visualization of material basis for
                                    space implies a kind of permanent
                                    structural relationship between
                                    sources and sinks - but objects do
                                    seem to move fairly fluidly from
                                    place to place. Do sources and sinks
                                    move in your vision, If so what do
                                    they move in?</p>
                                  <p>best,</p>
                                  <p>Wolf</p>
                                  <pre class="moz-signature">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='wolf@NascentInc.com'; return false;" target="_blank">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
                                  <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On
                                    1/21/2017 10:20 PM, <a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                      href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='af.kracklauer@web.de'; return
                                      false;" target="_blank">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>
                                    wrote:</div>
                                  <blockquote>
                                    <div style="font-family:
                                      Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
                                      <div>
                                        <div>Challenge for proponents of
                                          fields (all kinds: E&M,
                                          Gravity, Tension, whatever): 
                                          If the universe is finite,
                                          then the field sources on the
                                          outer rind will be pumping
                                          field energy into the void,
                                          the material universe would be
                                          cooling down, etc. So, where
                                          is the evidence for such?  If
                                          the universe is finite but
                                          topologically closed, then it
                                          will have certain "Betti
                                          numbers" for various forms
                                          which will be closed, (see:
                                          algebraic topology texts),
                                          again there should be some
                                          observable consequence from
                                          the these closed forms.  So
                                          (again) where's the
                                          evidence?   Granted, current
                                          tech may not be up to the
                                          task; but that would imply
                                          that field theories have to be
                                          reduced in status to be
                                          virtually religion.</div>
                                        <div> </div>
                                        <div>One way out:  there are no
                                          fields, but interactions
                                          between sources and sinks. 
                                          Where one is missing, there's
                                          nothing!  In particular
                                          nothing emminating from
                                          sources without regard for
                                          target-like sinks.  Advantage:
                                          the math works out without
                                          internal contradictions
                                          (divergencies, etc.).  Another
                                          advantage: from this
                                          viewpoint, there are no waves,
                                          and associated divergencies. 
                                          They are just cocek the ptual
                                          Fourier components for the
                                          interactions.  Useful, but
                                          strictly hypothetical. </div>
                                        <div> </div>
                                        <div>For what it's worth, Al</div>
                                        <div> 
                                          <div style="margin: 10.0px
                                            5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding:
                                            10.0px 0 10.0px
                                            10.0px;border-left: 2.0px
                                            solid rgb(195,217,229);">
                                            <div style="margin: 0 0
                                              10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
                                              22. Januar 2017 um 04:19
                                              Uhr<br>
                                              <b>Von:</b> "Roychoudhuri,
                                              Chandra" <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu"
                                                onclick="parent.window.location.href='chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu';
                                                return false;"
                                                target="_blank"><chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu></a><br>
                                              <b>An:</b> "Nature of
                                              Light and Particles -
                                              General Discussion" <a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                return false;"
                                                target="_blank"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a><br>
                                              <b>Betreff:</b> Re:
                                              [General] light and
                                              particles group</div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div
                                                  class="WordSection1">
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(0,51,0);">John
                                                      M.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(0,51,0);">I am
                                                      not the right
                                                      person to give you
                                                      decisive answers
                                                      as I have not
                                                      followed the math
                                                      relevant to the
                                                      origin of
                                                      Gravitational Wave
                                                      (GW) and its
                                                      spontaneous
                                                      propagation. </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(0,51,0);">      First,
                                                      you can find out
                                                      the current state
                                                      of technology in
                                                      the measuring
                                                      precision of (i)
                                                      fringe fraction, F
                                                      (i.e.,
                                                      180-degree/F) vs.
                                                      (i) polarization
                                                      angle fraction F
                                                      (90-degree/F). As
                                                      I recall, much
                                                      better than
                                                      thousandth of a
                                                      fringe-shift is
                                                      now measurable. I
                                                      do not know what
                                                      is the current
                                                      best value of F
                                                      for polarization
                                                      measurement. You
                                                      can look up
                                                      Gravitational
                                                      Faraday Effect
                                                      also. I did “poke
                                                      my nose” there in
                                                      the past; but
                                                      could not find
                                                      anything
                                                      measurable.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(0,51,0);">    
                                                      Second, more
                                                      fundamental
                                                      physics. All
                                                      material based
                                                      waves and light
                                                      waves require a
                                                      continuous tension
                                                      field that
                                                      steadily gets
                                                      pushed away from
                                                      the original site
                                                      of perturbation
                                                      induced on the
                                                      field; provided
                                                      the perturbation
                                                      does not exceed
                                                      the restoration
                                                      linearity
                                                      condition
                                                      (“Young’s
                                                      Modulus”, or
                                                      equivalent). For,
                                                      stretched material
                                                      string, the
                                                      mechanical tension
                                                      is T and the
                                                      restoration force
                                                      is the “inertial
                                                      mass” “Sigma” per
                                                      unit length; then
                                                      string-wave
                                                      v-squared
                                                      =T/Sigma. For
                                                      light, c-squared =
Epsilon-inverse/Mu. Epsilon-inverse is the electric tension and Mu is
                                                      the magnetic
                                                      restoration force.
                                                      These analogies
                                                      are explained in
                                                      some of my papers;
                                                      I have sent
                                                      earlier.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(0,51,0);">     
                                                      Now my very basic
                                                      question for the
                                                      experts in GW: <b><i>How
                                                          do you define
                                                          the GW-tension
                                                          field?</i></b>
                                                      All spontaneously
                                                      propagating waves
                                                      require a steady
                                                      and continuous
                                                      tension field in
                                                      which a suitable
                                                      perturbation
                                                      triggers the
                                                      original wave.
                                                      What is the
                                                      velocity of GW and
                                                      what are the
                                                      corresponding
                                                      tension and
                                                      restoration
                                                      parameters? If you
                                                      say, it is the
                                                      same velocity as
                                                      “c”, for the EM
                                                      wave; then <b><i>we
                                                          have some
                                                          serious
                                                          confusion to
                                                          resolve</i></b>.
                                                      Are the tension
                                                      and restoration
                                                      parameters same as
                                                      those for EM
                                                      waves? Then, why
                                                      should we call it
                                                      GW; instead of
                                                      pulsed EM waves?
                                                      Or, <b><i>are the
                                                          two parameters
                                                          really
                                                          physically
                                                          different for
                                                          GW</i></b>(should
                                                      be); but
                                                      GW-velocity number
                                                      just happens to
                                                      coincide with “c”?</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(0,51,0);">    
                                                      I took Einstein’s
                                                      explanation for
                                                      the origin of
                                                      Gravity as the
                                                      “Curvature of
                                                      Space” literally,
                                                      as the Potential
                                                      Gradient generated
                                                      around any
                                                      assembly of
                                                      Baryonic
                                                      Particles. So, a
                                                      pair of rotating
                                                      binary stars will
                                                      generate a
                                                      periodically
                                                      oscillating
                                                      potential
                                                      gradient. Whatever
                                                      the value of the
                                                      effective gravity
                                                      of a “stationary”
                                                      binary star around
                                                      earth is; it would
                                                      be oscillating
                                                      slightly when the
                                                      “stationary”
                                                      binary stars start
                                                      rotating around
                                                      themselves. But,
                                                      this is not
                                                      Gravity Wave to
                                                      me. It is a
                                                      phenomenon of
                                                      “locally” changing
                                                      value of the
                                                      “curvature of
                                                      space”; not a
                                                      passing by wave.
                                                      Imagine the
                                                      typical
                                                      “trampoline demo”
                                                      for Einsteinian
                                                      gravity with a
                                                      heavy iron ball at
                                                      the depressed
                                                      center. If you
                                                      periodically
                                                      magnetically
                                                      attract the iron
                                                      ball to
                                                      effectively reduce
                                                      the trampoline
                                                      curvature; we are
                                                      not generating
                                                      propagating GW; we
                                                      are periodically
                                                      changing the local
                                                      “curvature”! </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(0,51,0);">     These
                                                      comments should
                                                      give you some
                                                      pragmatic “food
                                                      for thought”! </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(0,51,0);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(0,51,0);">Chandra.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:
                                                        11.0pt;color:
                                                        rgb(0,51,0);"> </span></a></p>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style="border:
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                                                      solid
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                                                      1.0pt;padding:
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                                                      0.0in;">
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                                          style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;"> General [<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                                                          <b>On Behalf
                                                          Of </b>John
                                                          Macken<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Saturday,
                                                          January 21,
                                                          2017 4:14 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b>
                                                          'Nature of
                                                          Light and
                                                          Particles -
                                                          General
                                                          Discussion'<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re: [General]
                                                          light and
                                                          particles
                                                          group</span></p>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">Chandra,</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">I
                                                      have one quick
                                                      question for you
                                                      and the group to
                                                      consider.  You
                                                      mention that
                                                      Maxwell connected
                                                      the speed of light
                                                      to the properties
                                                      of space (epsilon
                                                      and mu). To
                                                      explain my
                                                      question, I first
                                                      have to give some
                                                      background which
                                                      is accomplished by
                                                      quoting a short
                                                      section of the
                                                      previously
                                                      attached paper. </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="text-align:
                                                    justify;"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">“Gravitational
                                                      waves (GWs)
                                                      propagate in the
                                                      medium of
                                                      spacetime. They
                                                      are transverse
                                                      quadrupole waves
                                                      which slightly
                                                      distort the
                                                      “fabric of
                                                      space”.  For
                                                      example, a GW
                                                      propagating in the
                                                      “Z” direction
                                                      would cause a
                                                      sphere made from
                                                      baryonic matter
                                                      such as metal to
                                                      become an
                                                      oscillating
                                                      ellipsoid.  When
                                                      the sphere expands
                                                      in the X direction
                                                      it contracts in
                                                      the Y direction
                                                      and vice versa.
                                                      The GW produces:
                                                      1) no change in
                                                      the total volume
                                                      of the oscillating
                                                      sphere 2) no
                                                      change in the rate
                                                      of time, 3) no
                                                      displacement of
                                                      the center of mass
                                                      of the oscillating
                                                      sphere. </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="text-align:
                                                    justify;"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">Point #3
                                                      addresses an
                                                      important point.
                                                      If there are two
                                                      isolated masses
                                                      such as two LIGO
                                                      interferometer
                                                      mirrors suspended
                                                      by wires [17], the
                                                      passage of a GW
                                                      does not move the
                                                      mirror’s center of
                                                      mass.  Instead of
                                                      the mirrors
                                                      physically moving,
                                                      the GW changes the
                                                      properties of
                                                      spacetime
                                                      producing a
                                                      redshift and a
                                                      blue shift on
                                                      LIGO’s laser
                                                      beams.  This
                                                      difference in
                                                      wavelength is
                                                      detected by the
                                                      interferometer as
                                                      a fringe shift…”</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">With
                                                      this introduction,
                                                      the questions are:</span></p>
                                                  <ol start="1"
                                                    style="margin-top:
                                                    0.0in;" type="1">
                                                    <li
                                                      class="MsoNormal"
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">Should
                                                      a GW effect the
                                                      permeability and
                                                      permittivity of
                                                      free space?</li>
                                                    <li
                                                      class="MsoNormal"
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">Should
                                                      the two orthogonal
                                                       polarizations of
                                                      a GW produce
                                                      opposite effects
                                                      on the
                                                      permeability and
                                                      permittivity of
                                                      free space?</li>
                                                    <li
                                                      class="MsoNormal"
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">Since
                                                      epsilon and mu
                                                      determine the
                                                      speed of light,
                                                      should a GW
                                                      produce a
                                                      different effect
                                                      on the two
                                                      orthogonal
                                                      polarizations of
                                                      light?</li>
                                                  </ol>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">If
                                                      the answer to
                                                      question #3 is
                                                      yes, then this
                                                      suggests that it
                                                      should be possible
                                                      to detect GWs by
                                                      monitoring the
                                                      polarization of a
                                                      laser beam.  It is
                                                      vastly simpler to
                                                      detect a slight
                                                      difference in the
                                                      polarization of a
                                                      single beam of
                                                      light than it is
                                                      to detect the same
                                                      optical shift
                                                      between two arms
                                                      of an
                                                      interferometer. 
                                                      The interferometer
                                                      encounters
                                                      vibration noise to
                                                      a much greater
                                                      degree than is
                                                      encountered in the
                                                      polarization of a
                                                      single laser beam.
                                                       Also, multiple
                                                      laser beams could
                                                      identify the
                                                      direction of the
                                                      GW much better
                                                      than an
                                                      interferometer.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">Perhaps
                                                      this is off the
                                                      subject of the
                                                      discussion group.
                                                      But it is an
                                                      example of a
                                                      subject which
                                                      might be low
                                                      hanging fruit that
                                                      could make a
                                                      historic
                                                      contribution to
                                                      physics.  In the
                                                      past I have made
                                                      the suggestion
                                                      that GWs produce a
                                                      polarization
                                                      effect, but this
                                                      suggestion is
                                                      lacking additional
                                                      insight and
                                                      analysis to be
                                                      taken seriously. 
                                                      Is there anyone in
                                                      this group with
                                                      the expertise to
                                                      contribute to this
                                                      study?  </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">John
                                                      M.  </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style="border:
                                                      none;border-top:
                                                      solid
                                                      rgb(225,225,225)
                                                      1.0pt;padding:
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                                                      0.0in;">
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                                          style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;"> General [<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                                                          <b>On Behalf
                                                          Of </b>Roychoudhuri,
                                                          Chandra<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Saturday,
                                                          January 21,
                                                          2017 11:56 AM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b>
                                                          Nature of
                                                          Light and
                                                          Particles -
                                                          General
                                                          Discussion
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re: [General]
                                                          light and
                                                          particles
                                                          group</span></p>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(153,51,102);">“Gravitational
                                                      waves indicate
                                                      vacuum energy
                                                      exists”, paper by
                                                      John Macken</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(153,51,102);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(153,51,102);">John
                                                      M.: Thanks for
                                                      attaching your
                                                      paper. <b><i>The
                                                          title clearly
                                                          indicates that
                                                          we really are
                                                          in basic
                                                          agreement. The
                                                          cosmic space
                                                          has physical
                                                          properties.</i></b>
                                                      I have expressed
                                                      my views a bit
                                                      differently, that
                                                      the cosmic space
                                                      is a <b><i>stationary
                                                        </i></b>Complex
                                                      Tension Filed
                                                      (CTF), <b><i>holding
                                                          100% of the
                                                          cosmic energy</i></b>
                                                      in the attached
                                                      papers and in my
                                                      book, “Causal
                                                      Physics”. <b><i>If
                                                          the so-called
                                                          vacuous cosmic
                                                          space and the
                                                          CTF were not
                                                          inseparable,
                                                          the velocity
                                                          of light would
                                                          have been
                                                          different
                                                          through
                                                          different
                                                          regions of the
                                                          cosmic space</i></b>!</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(153,51,102);">    
                                                      I just do not like
                                                      to continue to use
                                                      the word “vacuum”
                                                      because, in the
                                                      English language,
                                                      it has acquired a
                                                      very different
                                                      meaning
                                                      (“nothing”) for
                                                      absolute majority
                                                      of people over
                                                      many centuries. It
                                                      is better not to
                                                      confuse common
                                                      people by
                                                      asserting new
                                                      meanings on very
                                                      old and very well
                                                      established words.
                                                    </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(153,51,102);">     Further,
                                                      in your support,
                                                      the quantitative
                                                      values of at least
                                                      two physical
                                                      properties,</span>
                                                    <span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(153,51,102);">Epsilon
                                                      & Mu, of the
                                                      comic space have
                                                      already presented
                                                      as quantified
                                                      properties by
                                                      Maxwell around
                                                      1867 through his
                                                      wave equation.
                                                      Recall
                                                      (c-squared)=(1/Epsilon.Mu).
                                                      These properties
                                                      of the cosmic
                                                      space were already
                                                      quantified before
                                                      Maxwell by the
                                                      early developers
                                                      of electrostatics
                                                      and magneto
                                                      statics.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(153,51,102);">    
                                                      I assume that you
                                                      are suggesting us
                                                      that we need to
                                                      postulate and
                                                      quantify other
                                                      physical
                                                      properties
                                                      possessed by this
                                                      cosmic space (<b><i>Maxwellian
                                                          or Faraday
                                                          Tension Field</i></b>?),
                                                      so that the
                                                      “emergent dynamic
                                                      particles” out of
                                                      this cosmic space
                                                      would display all
                                                      the properties we
                                                      have already been
                                                      measuring for well
                                                      over a century.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(153,51,102);">     
                                                      However, I
                                                      disagree, as of
                                                      now, that cosmic
                                                      space is
                                                      “space-time” four
                                                      dimensional.
                                                      Because, the
                                                      “running time” is
                                                      not a measurable
                                                      physical parameter
                                                      of any physical
                                                      entity that we
                                                      know of in this
                                                      universe. So, I
                                                      assert that the
                                                      “running time”
                                                      cannot be altered
                                                      by any physical
                                                      process. <b><i>Humans
                                                          have smartly
                                                          derived the
                                                          concept of
                                                          “running time”
                                                          using various
                                                          kinds of
                                                          harmonic
                                                          oscillators
                                                          and/or
                                                          periodic
                                                          motions.</i></b>
                                                      We can alter the
                                                      frequency of a
                                                      physical
                                                      oscillator by
                                                      changing its
                                                      physical
                                                      environment. Of
                                                      course, this is my
                                                      personal
                                                      perception, <b><i>not
                                                          supported by
                                                          the entire
                                                          group</i></b>.
                                                      But, that is
                                                      precisely the
                                                      purpose of this
                                                      free and honest
                                                      discussions so we
                                                      can learn from
                                                      each other. As my
                                                      understanding
                                                      evolves; I might
                                                      change back my
                                                      mind and accept
                                                      space as four- or
                                                      even
                                                      thirteen-dimensional.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(153,51,102);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(153,51,102);">Chandra.</span></p>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style="border:
                                                      none;border-top:
                                                      solid
                                                      rgb(181,196,223)
                                                      1.0pt;padding:
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                                                      0.0in;">
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                                          style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;"> General [<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                                                          <b>On Behalf
                                                          Of </b>John
                                                          Macken<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Saturday,
                                                          January 21,
                                                          2017 1:37 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b>
                                                          'Nature of
                                                          Light and
                                                          Particles -
                                                          General
                                                          Discussion';
                                                          'Andrew
                                                          Worsley'<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b>
                                                          'M.A.'<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re: [General]
                                                          light and
                                                          particles
                                                          group</span></p>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">Dear
                                                      Chandra and All,</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">You
                                                      have said “</span><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">We
                                                      definitely have
                                                      advanced our <b><i>collective
                                                          understanding</i></b>
                                                      that <b><i>space
                                                          is not empty
                                                          and the
                                                          particles are
                                                          some form of
                                                          emergent
                                                          properties of
                                                          this same
                                                          universal
                                                          cosmic field.</i></b></span><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">” 
                                                      The idea that
                                                      space is not an
                                                      empty void has not
                                                      been quantified in
                                                      any model of
                                                      spacetime proposed
                                                      by members of  the
                                                      group. </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">I
                                                      have concentrated
                                                      in defining and
                                                      quantifying the
                                                      properties of the
                                                      vacuum and the
                                                      results are
                                                      presented in the
                                                      attached paper. 
                                                      This paper
                                                      analyzes the
                                                      properties of
                                                      spacetime
                                                      encountered by
                                                      gravitational
                                                      waves.  The
                                                      conclusion is that
                                                      spacetime is a sea
                                                      of Planck length
                                                      vacuum
                                                      fluctuations that
                                                      oscillate at
                                                      Planck frequency.
                                                      This model can be
                                                      quantified,
                                                      analyzed and
                                                      tested.  It is
                                                      shown that this
                                                      model gives the
                                                      correct energy for
                                                      virtual particle
                                                      formation.  It
                                                      also gives the
                                                      correct energy
                                                      density for black
                                                      holes, the correct
                                                      zero point energy
                                                      density of the
                                                      universe (about 10<sup>113</sup>
                                                      J/m<sup>3</sup>)
                                                      and generates the
                                                      Friedmann equation
                                                      for the critical
                                                      density of the
                                                      universe (about 10<sup>-26</sup>
                                                      kg/m<sup>3</sup> =
                                                       10<sup>-9</sup>
                                                      J/m<sup>3</sup>).
                                                    </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">The
                                                      reason for
                                                      mentioning this to
                                                      a group interested
                                                      in the structure
                                                      of electrons,
                                                       photons and
                                                      electric fields is
                                                      that the
                                                      quantifiable
                                                      properties of
                                                      spacetime must be
                                                      incorporated into
                                                      any particle or
                                                      field  model. </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="color:
                                                      rgb(32,24,140);">John 
                                                      M.</span></p>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style="border:
                                                      none;border-top:
                                                      solid
                                                      rgb(225,225,225)
                                                      1.0pt;padding:
                                                      3.0pt 0.0in 0.0in
                                                      0.0in;">
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                                          style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;"> General [<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                                                          <b>On Behalf
                                                          Of </b>Roychoudhuri,
                                                          Chandra<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Saturday,
                                                          January 21,
                                                          2017 8:45 AM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b>
                                                          Andrew Worsley
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:worsley333@gmail.com"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='worsley333@gmail.com';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">worsley333@gmail.com</a>>; Light & particles. Web
                                                          discussion
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b>
                                                          M.A. <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ambroselli@phys.uconn.edu"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='ambroselli@phys.uconn.edu';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">ambroselli@phys.uconn.edu</a>><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re: [General]
                                                          light and
                                                          particles
                                                          group</span></p>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">Dear
                                                      Andrew Worsely: </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">    This
                                                      is a platform for
                                                      ethical, serious
                                                      and honest
                                                      discussions on
                                                      scientific issues
                                                      that the
                                                      prevailing
                                                      mainstream
                                                      platforms have
                                                      been shunning. We
                                                      definitely do not
                                                      want to sow
                                                      unsubstantiated
                                                      distrust within
                                                      this group. <b><i>This
                                                          not a
                                                          political
                                                          forum where
                                                          sophisticated
                                                          deceptions are
                                                          highly prized;
                                                          which has been
intellectualized as “post-truth”!</i></b> This is not a “post-truth”
                                                      forum.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">     So,
                                                      please, <b><i><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          rgb(192,0,0);">help
                                                          us</span></i></b><span
                                                        style="color:
                                                        rgb(192,0,0);">
                                                      </span>by getting
                                                      help from computer
                                                      professionals
                                                      before repeating
                                                      any further
                                                      unsubstantiated
                                                      accusations.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">     If
                                                      you can
                                                      definitively
                                                      identify anybody
                                                      within our group
                                                      carrying out
                                                      unethical and
                                                      destructive
                                                      activities;
                                                      obviously, we
                                                      would bar such
                                                      persons from this
                                                      group discussion.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">Chandra.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">Dear All
                                                      Participants:    </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">Please be
                                                      vigilant in
                                                      maintaining the
                                                      essential ethics
                                                      behind this
                                                      discussion forum –
                                                      honestly accept or
                                                      reject others’
                                                      opinions;
                                                      preferably, <b><i>build
                                                          upon them.
                                                          This is the
                                                          main objective
                                                          of this forum
                                                          as this would
                                                          advance real
                                                          progress in
                                                          physics out of
                                                          the currently
                                                          stagnant
                                                          culture</i></b>.
                                                      While we have not
                                                      come to realize
                                                      any
                                                      broadly-acceptable
                                                      major
                                                      break-through out
                                                      of this forum; we
                                                      definitely have
                                                      advanced our <b><i>collective
                                                          understanding</i></b>
                                                      that <b><i>space
                                                          is not empty
                                                          and the
                                                          particles are
                                                          some form of
                                                          emergent
                                                          properties of
                                                          this same
                                                          universal
                                                          cosmic field.</i></b>
                                                      This, in itself,
                                                      is significant;
                                                      because the
                                                      approach of this
                                                      group to particle
                                                      physics is
                                                      significantly
                                                      different from the
                                                      mainstream. I
                                                      definitely see a
                                                      better future for
                                                      physics out of
                                                      this thinking:
                                                      Space is a real
                                                      physical field and
                                                      observables are
                                                      manifestation
                                                      (different forms
                                                      of excited states)
                                                      of this field.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">    
                                                       Most of you are
                                                      aware that our
                                                      SPIE conference
                                                      series, which was
                                                      continuing since
                                                      2005, has been
                                                      abruptly shut down
                                                      without serious
                                                      valid
                                                      justifications
                                                      (complains from
                                                      “knowledgeable
                                                      people” that “bad
                                                      apples” have
                                                      joined in). We
                                                      certainly do not
                                                      want something
                                                      similar happen to
                                                      this web
                                                      discussion forum
                                                      due to internal
                                                      dissentions and
                                                      internal unethical
                                                      behavior.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">Many
                                                      thanks for your
                                                      vigilance and
                                                      support.</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">Respectfully,</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;">Chandra.
                                                    </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                      style="font-size:
                                                      11.0pt;color:
                                                      rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                                      style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;"> Andrew Worsley [<a
                                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:worsley333@gmail.com"
                                                        onclick="parent.window.location.href='worsley333@gmail.com';
                                                        return false;"
                                                        target="_blank">mailto:worsley333@gmail.com</a>]<br>
                                                      <b>Sent:</b>
                                                      Saturday, January
                                                      21, 2017 4:49 AM<br>
                                                      <b>To:</b> John
                                                      Duffield<br>
                                                      <b>Cc:</b>
                                                      Roychoudhuri,
                                                      Chandra; ANDREW
                                                      WORSLEY<br>
                                                      <b>Subject:</b>
                                                      Re: Andrew
                                                      Worsley, light and
                                                      particles group</span></p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal">Hi
                                                      John,</p>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal">Could
                                                        be a
                                                        coincidence, but
                                                        some damn troll
                                                        from the
                                                        discussion group
                                                        (called
                                                        Vladimir) has
                                                        screwed up my
                                                        email which I
                                                        have had problem
                                                        free for the
                                                        last 20 years-
                                                        and my computer
                                                        is now going
                                                        suspiciously
                                                        slow.</p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal">Andrew</p>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal">On
                                                        Thu, Jan 19,
                                                        2017 at 7:44 PM,
                                                        John Duffield
                                                        <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='johnduffield@btconnect.com';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">johnduffield@btconnect.com</a>> wrote:</p>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Chandra:
                                                          </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Please
                                                          can you add
                                                          Andrew Worsley
                                                          to the nature
                                                          of light and
                                                          particles
                                                          group. I’ve
                                                          met him
                                                          personally,
                                                          and think he
                                                          has a valuable
                                                          contribution
                                                          to make. </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Apologies
                                                          if you’ve
                                                          already done
                                                          this, but
                                                          Andrew tells
                                                          me he’s
                                                          received a <i>blocked
                                                          by moderator</i>
                                                          message. </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Regards</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>John
                                                          Duffield</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>7
                                                          Gleneagles
                                                          Avenue</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Poole</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>BH14
                                                          9LJ</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>UK</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="border:
none;border-top: solid rgb(225,225,225) 1.0pt;padding: 3.0pt 0.0in 0.0in
                                                          0.0in;">
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
                                                          John Duffield
                                                          [mailto:<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='johnduffield@btconnect.com';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">johnduffield@btconnect.com</a>]<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          09 January
                                                          2017 08:34<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b>
                                                          'Roychoudhuri,
                                                          Chandra' <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu</a>><br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b>
                                                          'ANDREW
                                                          WORSLEY' <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:member@aworsley.fsnet.co.uk"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='member@aworsley.fsnet.co.uk';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">member@aworsley.fsnet.co.uk</a>>; 'John Williamson'
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk</a>>; 'Martin Van Der
                                                          Mark' <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:martinvandermark1@gmail.com"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='martinvandermark1@gmail.com';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">martinvandermark1@gmail.com</a>><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Andrew
                                                          Worsley, light
                                                          and particles
                                                          group</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Chandra:
                                                          </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Please
                                                          can you add
                                                          Andrew Worsley
                                                          (<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:worsley333@gmail.com"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='worsley333@gmail.com';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">worsley333@gmail.com</a>) to the nature of light and
                                                          particles
                                                          group. I’ve
                                                          met him
                                                          personally,
                                                          and think he
                                                          has a valuable
                                                          contribution
                                                          to make. He
                                                          has described
                                                          the electron
                                                          as being what
                                                          you might call
                                                          a quantum
                                                          harmonic
                                                          structure. 
                                                          The electron
                                                          in an orbital
                                                          is described
                                                          by spherical
                                                          harmonics, the
                                                          electron
                                                          itself might
                                                          be described
                                                          by spherical
                                                          (or toroidal)
                                                          harmonics. </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Regards</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>JohnD</span></p>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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