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    <p>Wolf:</p>
    <p>some responses to your last mail:<br>
    </p>
    Am 16.02.2017 um 20:09 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:80124616-ff65-0289-743e-64193ae7b916@nascentinc.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <p>Albrecht:</p>
      <p>if I understand it, the periodic displacement of stars due to
        earth orbital motion is also the steady state displacement
        causing the 8.5 min displacement of the Sun in Flanders
        argument. If I understand his argument then the Sun is displaced
        because the photons come in at an angle which is exactly the
        angle in my diagram between the wave front line propagating from
        the12 nd 6 O'clock positions and the orbit line intercecting at
        5 and 11 Oclock<br>
      </p>
    </blockquote>
    I guess that you mean here the annual orbital motion of earth around
    the sun. True? But in this case I do not understand your reference
    to the 8.5 min. displacement. Because this is the time which light
    needs to pass the distance between sun and earth. What does this
    have to do which the orbital annual motion?<br>
    <br>
    If we discuss this orbital motion then we can assume the sun to be
    at a fixed position in space. Because the orbital motion of the sun
    around the centre of our galaxy is in comparison an almost straight
    motion so that we can treat the system of the sun and its planets as
    an inertial system. <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:80124616-ff65-0289-743e-64193ae7b916@nascentinc.com"
      type="cite">
      <p> </p>
      <p><img alt="" src="cid:part1.76AC9DA1.A44A938F@a-giese.de"
          height="295" width="392"></p>
      <p>I was taught that photons are wave packets i.e a carrier wave
        modified by an envelope.And the same localization argument
        applied to quantum waves which ultimately explained Heisenberg's
        uncertainty. <br>
      </p>
    </blockquote>
    I would agree that this is a usable approximation.<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:80124616-ff65-0289-743e-64193ae7b916@nascentinc.com"
      type="cite">
      <p> </p>
      <p>Yes if bullets show aberration and fields do not , then we are
        back to the quantum picture - or perhaps Bohm's pilot wave -
        bullets guided by mysterious quantum waves.</p>
    </blockquote>
    Is this the quantum picture? I think that it is a good picture but
    QM does not like it as we know. And the pilot wave was an invention
    of de Broglie (but maybe Bohm has used it for a further
    development).<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:80124616-ff65-0289-743e-64193ae7b916@nascentinc.com"
      type="cite">
      <p>I think we are at the right forum. What are photons anyway?<br>
      </p>
    </blockquote>
    In my view also photons can be described by the Basic Particle Model
    as I have presented it in San Diego. Then it is also - like the
    electron and other particles - object of the strong force.  But in
    contrast to the electron the photon has to carry a positive and a
    negative electric charge as it is electrically neutral. And maybe
    two of them as the photon has twice the spin of a lepton or a quark.
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:80124616-ff65-0289-743e-64193ae7b916@nascentinc.com"
      type="cite">
      <p> </p>
      <p>I wrote to Falndern at the Mindspring Email address but no such
        person found. now I see he died in 2009. but he was <span
          class="st">In 2002 Dr. <em>Tom van Flandern</em>, a PhD in
          Astronomy and formerly the Chief of the Celestial Mechanics
          Branch of the Nautical Almanac Office .</span></p>
      <p>What text d you have that derives the field of a moving charge,
        I can probably find it in our library?<br>
      </p>
    </blockquote>
    As said in my previous mail, my favourite book is at present
    "Special Relativity" of A.P. French. <br>
    <br>
    Greetings<br>
    Albrecht<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:80124616-ff65-0289-743e-64193ae7b916@nascentinc.com"
      type="cite">
      <p> </p>
      <p>wolf<br>
      </p>
      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/16/2017 6:32 AM, Albrecht Giese
        wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote
        cite="mid:1ba2dc49-b719-be19-01a6-f7da11c843c7@a-giese.de"
        type="cite">
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        <p>Wolf,</p>
        <p>two points about this:</p>
        <p>1.) By the normal definition of aberration the top part of
          the drawing of van Flanders, Fig. 2, is aberration, i.e. the
          case if the target is moving. If our astronomers look at
          distant stars then theses stars show a periodic displacement /
          aberration caused by the periodic motion of the earth.</p>
        <p>2.) It becomes more and more obvious to me (and I find it
          really surprising) that any kinds of "bullets" show aberration
          in the appropriate situations, but fields (like the electric
          field and also the gravitational field) do not show
          aberration. - For electric fields this is said - and derived -
          in my textbook about relativity.<br>
        </p>
        <p>This has an amazing consequence. As photons do show
          aberration it is obvious that photons are not fields or waves
          but are bullets. - What do you think?</p>
        <p>Best<br>
          Albrecht<br>
          <br>
        </p>
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 16.02.2017 um 06:16 schrieb
          Wolfgang Baer:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote
          cite="mid:eb7552ca-5c3c-7bfb-24b0-4b3ab49c2d9a@nascentinc.com"
          type="cite">
          <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
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          <p>Albrecht:</p>
          <p>"The motion of the Earth is of no influence." on page three
            of the Flandern's paper you will find a comparison of the
            earth vs the sun movingsituation</p>
          <p>Flandern claims as shown in figure 2 that view from source
            stationary or observer stationary makes no difference in one
            case it is called aberration in the other time delay, both
            get the same angle and the same apparent optic location <br>
          </p>
          <p>best again</p>
          <p>wolf<br>
          </p>
          <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
          <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/14/2017 1:12 PM, Albrecht
            Giese wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote
            cite="mid:35616a9c-fa25-4209-b7ec-26b023da0fc8@a-giese.de"
            type="cite">
            <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
              http-equiv="Content-Type">
            <p>Wolf,</p>
            <p>it is in fact not necessary to follow Einstein's version
              of SRT. I for myself follow the version of Hendrik Lorentz
              as it is based on known physical facts, not on fictitious
              assumptions about space-time. However there are
              relativistic facts which are obvious and independent of
              any formal version of SRT. That is the contraction of
              fields and the dilation of periodic processes. And these
              are for sure. The calculations according to
              Lienard-Wiechert are based on these fact to my knowledge.
              At present I have started to follow this derivation step
              by step but will need a bit of time.<br>
            </p>
            <p>Do we indeed see the sun in a position which is about 8
              minutes retarded? From the view of the Earth the Sun can
              be taken as being in a fixed position without making a big
              mistake. But even if the sun would be moving in relation
              to our planetary system that would not matter in this
              case  The point is that the vectors of any fields
              originating at a moving object do not point to (or from)
              the visible position of its source but from the advanced
              position, where the object is when the field is received.
            </p>
            <p>As far as I understand what you write (or van Flanders
              writes) about the US naval data, these date describe the
              visible position of the sun, so the direction from which
              the photons arrive. That is obviously not a field. And if
              the direction of the gravitational field would be towards
              the retarded position then the orbital speed of the Earth
              would in fact change with time. Which is not the case -
              But independent of this consideration, this case seems
              particularly simple to me. As stated above, from the view
              of the Earth the Sun can be taken as being in a fixed
              position. With respect to this position the Sun has a
              constant gravitational field in all directions. If now the
              Earth orbits the sun then this steady field will reach the
              Earth as always coming from the centre of the sun. The
              motion of the Earth is of no influence. - The interesting
              case for this problem discussed at other places is the one
              of a double star. If both stars orbit each other then the
              position of one star changes permanently as seen from the
              other star. In that case the direction of the field and
              the propagation speed of the field are of relevance. But
              also for these cases the relativistic calculation seems to
              show that the fields are pointing towards the centre of
              the orbit following the Lienard-Wiechert calculation of
              potential.<br>
            </p>
            <p>I shall come back here as soon as I am more familiar with
              this case.</p>
            <p>Albrecht<br>
              <br>
            </p>
            <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 11.02.2017 um 20:30 schrieb
              Wolfgang Baer:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote
              cite="mid:0460a32c-368f-27e5-9f84-1c875600a1e7@nascentinc.com"
              type="cite">
              <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
                http-equiv="Content-Type">
              <p>Albrecht:</p>
              <p>I'll admit that I do not follow the consequences of
                Special Relativity Theory (SRT) as it is worked out in
                the Lienard-Wiechert potential. And since I identified
                at least a half dozen  derivations of these results in
                the internet I assume the math is correct. However we
                have been to the Vigier Conference and seen several
                presentations criticizing Special Relativity <br>
              </p>
              <p>So rather than go through a derivation again, which I
                do not doubt,  I'm trying to make sense of the predicted
                results. Its kind of like seeing SRT calculations and
                coming up with the twin paradox. Something is wrong with
                SRT<br>
              </p>
              <p>The VanFlanders paper ( I can send another copy for
                anyone who needs it) in the paragraph above "3.3 the
                solar eclipse test" clearly claims that experimental
                data from the Astronomical Almanac produced by the US
                naval observatory shows that the earth is attracted to 
                a point 8.5 min. ahead of its optical position. This
                means the earth is gravitationally attracted to where
                the sun is <i>Now</i> not where the sun was when light
                was emitted.</p>
              <p>The drawing below shows a simple example of how a light
                emitted from a non-relativistic particle ( 30km/sec) at
                the upper past position will not hit a parallel
                traveling lower particle at some distance achieved
                during the flight time of light and therefore  will
                receive light at an angle pointing to the retarded
                position. For earth orbit (30Km/sec) which is 10^4 less
                than the speed of light relativistic effects are 10^-8 ,
                i.e.very very small.compared with Newtonian thinking, 
                but the displacement in 8.5 minutes is 15,300km nearly 3
                earth diameters offset which should be measurable.<br>
              </p>
              <p>I've just gotten some visitors and need to go, but we
                are questioning SRT and the assumption that gravity may
                move at a different speed. so just citing more SRT
                derivations is not convincing. <br>
              </p>
              <p>Why is My diagram and "Eddington" and Flanders wrong?
                Is Flanders lying about his Ephemeris data and its
                experimental content? <br>
              </p>
              <p>Or are we just so brow beaten by SRT that whatever
                derivations we develop from it must be right? <br>
              </p>
              <p>Got to go</p>
              <p>Wolf<br>
              </p>
              <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baerecht
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
              <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/10/2017 12:33 PM,
                Albrecht Giese wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote
                cite="mid:b26e6913-7ce4-42e8-2da3-c9e2b9f2ad58@a-giese.de"
                type="cite">
                <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
                  http-equiv="Content-Type">
                <p>Hi Wolf, and hi Chip and All,<br>
                </p>
                <p>it is correct that the solution is a relativistic
                  calculation. In the figure below, the lower circuit
                  "now" gets the field from the direction of the higher
                  (small) circuit "now". Not so easily understandable by
                  visualisation but theoretically confirmed. It has to
                  do with relativistic contraction (of space / fields)
                  and with relativistic time synchronization.</p>
                <p>If I look into Jackson, to the mentioned p486 and
                  p487, then eq. (14.17) describes (unfortunately only)
                  the transverse field. But if in this equation the
                  product (kappa*R) is replace by the value given in
                  (14.16) then the result does not depend on the
                  retarded position P'. -  It would be better to have
                  here the field component for the longitudinal
                  direction. But even this is an indication that the
                  retarded position has no effect.<br>
                </p>
                <p>Regarding the two charges in my model I assume that
                  both charges are getting the field of the respective
                  other charge by similar considerations. If we assume
                  that charges permanently emit exchange particles for
                  the corresponding field following QM in this respect,
                  then there are exchange particles leaving the one
                  charge and reaching the other one. So there is a field
                  (a binding field) at the locations of both charges. -
                  But this statement is of course not a precise one and
                  I am going to present a detailed calculation taking
                  all this into account mathematically.</p>
                <p>And by the way with respect to gravity: This
                  discussion which we have started here has kept the
                  physicists busy during the entire 19th century (which
                  can be found at Wikipedia) The discussion used the
                  arguments of Van Flanders, Wolf, and also myself (in
                  the beginning) about the influence of retardation to
                  the perspective of the gravitational force; but this
                  discussion ended when Special Relativity was
                  introduced.</p>
                <p>Best<br>
                  Albrecht<br>
                </p>
                <p><br>
                </p>
                <br>
                <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 09.02.2017 um 21:32
                  schrieb Wolfgang Baer:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote
                  cite="mid:d0077ef8-27a4-c466-66dc-35ac309cf91c@nascentinc.com"
                  type="cite">
                  <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
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                  <p>What I know about retarded potentials exactly
                    corroborates my point</p>
                  <p>The potential is retarded yes but go backwards from
                    the 4Oklock location of the advancing lower particle
                    you will see the force vector no longer goes through
                    the orbit center. It comes from the retarded
                    position of the source, which was at 12Oclock.</p>
                  <p>Does retarded potential not mean one must calculate
                    the potential from the point sources were in the
                    past ? I'm reading Jackson p468 right now</p>
                  <p>Its a typical formula first section with no
                    explanation of what they mean, but it is clear that
                    my diagram is non relativistic and that may be my
                    error.<br>
                  </p>
                  <p>However a very slow moving particle very far away
                    moving transversely would have almost no
                    relativistic correction and still be seen. So in
                    this case would the observer ( big circle) not see
                    the source at the retarded past position. And if
                    that is the case would he not "see" the force vector
                    from the retarded past position?<br>
                  </p>
                  <p><img src="cid:part5.6CED071C.880CE4EC@a-giese.de"
                      alt=""></p>
                  <p>And that is exactly Flanders Argument regarding the
                    motion of the sun relative to an observer on the
                    earth. The EM force vector points to the retarded
                    position not the current position. But gravity
                    orbits are calculated as though the force vector
                    points to the actual Now position. <br>
                  </p>
                  <p>In my diagram the past upper particle is at
                    12Oclock and when the Light(EM INFLUENCE) gets to
                    the lower particle at 4 Oclock it sees the upper
                    particle at its past 12O'clock position. Thus the
                    force vector is no longer radially symmetric but has
                    a tangential component. <br>
                  </p>
                  <p>How your dual orbiting charge model traveling at
                    "c" works out I do not know. But if the E filed is
                    squeezed in the velocity direction then <br>
                  </p>
                  <p><img src="cid:part6.0F0EF814.F5B9D566@a-giese.de"
                      alt="">then the two particles would never
                    influence each other since the flat plane of E
                    fileds would rotate and always miss the</p>
                  <p>other particle. So what creates the field holding
                    the particles in orbit? <br>
                  </p>
                  <p>best<br>
                  </p>
                  <p>wolf<br>
                  </p>
                  <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
                  <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/8/2017 12:34 PM,
                    Albrecht Giese wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote
                    cite="mid:c816e475-f979-9708-efd1-9b5490991f46@a-giese.de"
                    type="cite">
                    <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
                      http-equiv="Content-Type">
                    <p>Hi!</p>
                    <p>No, it is not the point that 'Albrecht has some
                      other ideas'. But it is the situation solved by
                      the treatment of "retarded potential" as I have
                      already written. This is classical Main Stream
                      physics. <br>
                    </p>
                    <p>I can only repeat to refer to textbooks about
                      retarded potential which is besides my favourite
                      French the well known Landau&Lifschitz about
                      the so called Lienard-Wiechert potential (and I
                      think also in Jackson). From that calculation
                      follows that the forces arrive in a radial
                      direction at the particles / charges and so there
                      is no tangential component. <br>
                    </p>
                    <p>Van Flanders has obviously overlooked this fact
                      which is - to say it again - standard classical
                      physics.</p>
                    <p>Best, Albrecht<br>
                    </p>
                    <br>
                    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 08.02.2017 um 20:02
                      schrieb Wolfgang Baer:<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote
                      cite="mid:ddf67d39-119e-0554-1273-7b3f4610e861@nascentinc.com"
                      type="cite">
                      <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
                        http-equiv="Content-Type">
                      <p>I agree one must integrate the effect, but
                        since the instantaneous snapshot shown below
                        generate a small but not zero tangential force
                        along the trajectory if you rotate the entire
                        diagram by an infinitesimal angle the same force
                        will move around the cycle in the same direction
                        , so there would be no cancellation but an
                        accumulation of the tangential force build up.</p>
                      <p>I believe the only way to avoid the problem is
                        to have an attractive force at the center so
                        only radial force fields are encountered, or
                        have infinite propagation speed which is what
                        TOm Vam Flandern's paper tried to prove.</p>
                      <p>Albrecht has some other ideas</p>
                      <p>Best, wolf<br>
                      </p>
                      <p><br>
                      </p>
                      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
                      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/5/2017 5:26 PM,
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>
                        wrote:<br>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote
cite="mid:trinity-f11d112e-e338-4304-9917-5b7634fc0a8c-1486344379031@3capp-webde-bs15"
                        type="cite">
                        <div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size:
                          12.0px;">
                          <div>
                            <div>Hey Wolf:</div>
                            <div> </div>
                            <div>The actual force at any reception point
                              is not just that from one position of the
                              sending charge, but an integral over all
                              positions of the sending charge
                              intersecting the past light cone of the
                              sender.  I don't know what the answer is
                              and I'm too tired at the moment to do the
                              math.  Looks too like it might be very
                              involved!  Cone intersecting a spiral,
                              etc.  3/4-D, lots of unknown integrals....</div>
                            <div> </div>
                            <div>Also, a positron-electron pair should
                              be essentiall invisible as it is charge
                              nutral, i.e., won't interact with our only
                              agent of "seeing."  Except ...??</div>
                            <div> </div>
                            <div>---Al</div>
                            <div> 
                              <div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px
                                5px 10px; padding: 10px 0 10px 10px;
                                border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5;
                                word-wrap: break-word;
                                -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                                -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
                                <div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
                                  05. Februar 2017 um 21:47 Uhr<br>
                                  <b>Von:</b> "Wolfgang Baer" <a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                                    href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com"><wolf@nascentinc.com></a><br>
                                  <b>An:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                                    href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
                                  <b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] Albrecht
                                  Instantaneous gravity force</div>
                                <div name="quoted-content">
                                  <div style="background-color:
                                    rgb(255,255,255);">
                                    <p>Albrecht:</p>
                                    <p>I do not see how your example
                                      with electric forces applies to
                                      the gravitational example.in van
                                      Flanders 1998 paper , or for that
                                      matter to your model of an
                                      elementary particle. Has anyone
                                      ever seen positron electron
                                      orbiting each other?</p>
                                    <p> </p>
                                    <p>Consider two particles instantly
                                      at 10 and 6 Oclock send out a
                                      force that propagates radially
                                      from their instantaneous position</p>
                                    <p><img alt=""
                                        src="cid:part1.76AC9DA1.A44A938F@a-giese.de"
                                        height="295" width="392"></p>
                                    <p>A time of flight delay caused by
                                      field propagating spherically to
                                      reach the other particle after it
                                      has moved around the orbit.</p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">This means
                                      there is an angle between the
                                      purely radial from orbit center
                                      direction by an angle<span
                                        style="font-size: 18.0pt;"> Θ</span></p>
                                    <p> </p>
                                    <p>This angle will give a force
                                      vector along the orbit path would
                                      this not change the momentum??</p>
                                    <p>The only way I know Bohr atom
                                      works is because the proton is at
                                      the center of the electron orbit
                                      so no matter where the electron
                                      moves around the orbit it will
                                      experience a radial only force.</p>
                                    <p>I believe van Flanders 1998 paper
                                      claims that ephemerus  data was
                                      calculated assuming instantaneous
                                      gravity force projection and which
                                      seem to match visual position when
                                      corrected for the time delay
                                      between sources and observer. And
                                      if the time delay for gravity were
                                      introduced it would show up in
                                      orbit corrections not actually
                                      seen.   Is he making a mistake?</p>
                                    <p>best,</p>
                                    <p>Wolf</p>
                                    <pre class="moz-signature">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='wolf@NascentInc.com'; return false;" target="_blank">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
                                    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On
                                      1/31/2017 1:35 PM, Albrecht Giese
                                      wrote:</div>
                                    <blockquote>
                                      <p>Wolf,</p>
                                      <p>regarding the <i>speed of
                                          gravitational influence</i>:</p>
                                      <p>I have looked into the
                                        mentioned paper of Van Flanders
                                        in 1998 and particularly his
                                        arguments why gravitational
                                        influences must propagate
                                        instantly, not at the speed of
                                        light. I do not follow his
                                        arguments because he has
                                        overlooked an important point.</p>
                                      <p>His argument (also that one
                                        cited from Eddington) is: If the
                                        speed of gravitational
                                        propagation is limited (e.g. to
                                        c) then in the case of two
                                        celestial bodies each body would
                                        not see the other one at its
                                        actual  position but at a past
                                        position. This would destroy the
                                        conservation of momentum. - 
                                        However, this is not the case.</p>
                                      <p>One simple example to see that
                                        this argument cannot be true. We
                                        can imagine a set up of two <i>massive
                                        </i>bodies which orbit each
                                        other and which are bound to
                                        each other by an electrical
                                        force; this is easily possible
                                        by putting an appropriate
                                        electrical charge of different
                                        sign onto both bodies. Also the
                                        electrical force is, as we know,
                                        restricted to the speed of
                                        light. But it is very clear that
                                        this set up would keep the
                                        momentum of both bodies and
                                        would steadily move in a stable
                                        way.</p>
                                      <p>How does this work? The
                                        phenomenon is the so called
                                        "retarded potential". It has the
                                        effect that, even though both
                                        charges are seen at a past
                                        position by the other charge,
                                        the force vector points to the <i>actual
                                        </i>position of the other one.</p>
                                      <p>If we now assume that gravity
                                        is a force (independent of what
                                        Einstein talks about curvature
                                        of space), then the same rules
                                        of retarded potential apply to
                                        gravity. And so there is no
                                        change of momentum even though
                                        the effect of gravity is limited
                                        to the speed of light.</p>
                                      <p>Does this provide some
                                        clarification?</p>
                                      <p>Albrecht</p>
                                       
                                      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am
                                        22.01.2017 um 20:52 schrieb
                                        Wolfgang Baer:</div>
                                      <blockquote>
                                        <p>Al:</p>
                                        <p>I think the "where is the
                                          evidence" argument is no
                                          longer powerful because so
                                          many things happening in
                                          physics have little or even
                                          contradictory evidence. I'm
                                          just reading Van Flanders 1998
                                          "the speed of gravity" Physics
                                          Letters A250 1-11 which makes
                                          a good case for gravity
                                          influences influences moving
                                          instantly - not at the speed
                                          of light.</p>
                                        <p>However I like your idea of
                                          only interactions - in fact
                                          I'm developing a theory along
                                          those lines by modeling
                                          nothing as an empty page and
                                          requiring material formatting
                                          of the page as an explicit
                                          field of space cells. This
                                          still allows fields as a
                                          shortcut for calculating 
                                          interactions from multiple
                                          distant cells, but nothing
                                          remains nothing, if there are
                                          no cells to host interactions
                                          i.e. sources and sinks, then
                                          there is no influence
                                          propagating. It takes some
                                          material to propagate
                                          influences.</p>
                                        <p>I would be very curious to
                                          read how your "one way out"
                                          formulates this problem.</p>
                                        <p>One of my hang ups is that
                                          any visualization of material
                                          basis for space implies a kind
                                          of permanent structural
                                          relationship between sources
                                          and sinks - but objects do
                                          seem to move fairly fluidly
                                          from place to place. Do
                                          sources and sinks move in your
                                          vision, If so what do they
                                          move in?</p>
                                        <p>best,</p>
                                        <p>Wolf</p>
                                        <pre class="moz-signature">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='wolf@NascentInc.com'; return false;" target="_blank">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
                                        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On
                                          1/21/2017 10:20 PM, <a
                                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"
                                            onclick="parent.window.location.href='af.kracklauer@web.de';
                                            return false;"
                                            target="_blank">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>
                                          wrote:</div>
                                        <blockquote>
                                          <div style="font-family:
                                            Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
                                            <div>
                                              <div>Challenge for
                                                proponents of fields
                                                (all kinds: E&M,
                                                Gravity, Tension,
                                                whatever):  If the
                                                universe is finite, then
                                                the field sources on the
                                                outer rind will be
                                                pumping field energy
                                                into the void, the
                                                material universe would
                                                be cooling down, etc.
                                                So, where is the
                                                evidence for such?  If
                                                the universe is finite
                                                but topologically
                                                closed, then it will
                                                have certain "Betti
                                                numbers" for various
                                                forms which will be
                                                closed, (see: algebraic
                                                topology texts), again
                                                there should be some
                                                observable consequence
                                                from the these closed
                                                forms.  So (again)
                                                where's the evidence?  
                                                Granted, current tech
                                                may not be up to the
                                                task; but that would
                                                imply that field
                                                theories have to be
                                                reduced in status to be
                                                virtually religion.</div>
                                              <div> </div>
                                              <div>One way out:  there
                                                are no fields, but
                                                interactions between
                                                sources and sinks. 
                                                Where one is missing,
                                                there's nothing!  In
                                                particular nothing
                                                emminating from sources
                                                without regard for
                                                target-like sinks. 
                                                Advantage: the math
                                                works out without
                                                internal contradictions
                                                (divergencies, etc.). 
                                                Another advantage: from
                                                this viewpoint, there
                                                are no waves, and
                                                associated
                                                divergencies.  They are
                                                just cocek the ptual
                                                Fourier components for
                                                the interactions. 
                                                Useful, but strictly
                                                hypothetical. </div>
                                              <div> </div>
                                              <div>For what it's worth,
                                                Al</div>
                                              <div> 
                                                <div style="margin:
                                                  10.0px 5.0px 5.0px
                                                  10.0px;padding: 10.0px
                                                  0 10.0px
                                                  10.0px;border-left:
                                                  2.0px solid
                                                  rgb(195,217,229);">
                                                  <div style="margin: 0
                                                    0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
                                                    22. Januar 2017 um
                                                    04:19 Uhr<br>
                                                    <b>Von:</b> "Roychoudhuri,
                                                    Chandra" <a
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                                                      href="mailto:chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu';
                                                      return false;"
                                                      target="_blank"><chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu></a><br>
                                                    <b>An:</b> "Nature
                                                    of Light and
                                                    Particles - General
                                                    Discussion" <a
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                                                      href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                      return false;"
                                                      target="_blank"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a><br>
                                                    <b>Betreff:</b> Re:
                                                    [General] light and
                                                    particles group</div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div
                                                        class="WordSection1">
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(0,51,0);">John M.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(0,51,0);">I am not the right person
                                                          to give you
                                                          decisive
                                                          answers as I
                                                          have not
                                                          followed the
                                                          math relevant
                                                          to the origin
                                                          of
                                                          Gravitational
                                                          Wave (GW) and
                                                          its
                                                          spontaneous
                                                          propagation. </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(0,51,0);">      First, you can find
                                                          out the
                                                          current state
                                                          of technology
                                                          in the
                                                          measuring
                                                          precision of
                                                          (i) fringe
                                                          fraction, F
                                                          (i.e.,
                                                          180-degree/F)
                                                          vs. (i)
                                                          polarization
                                                          angle fraction
                                                          F
                                                          (90-degree/F).
                                                          As I recall,
                                                          much better
                                                          than
                                                          thousandth of
                                                          a fringe-shift
                                                          is now
                                                          measurable. I
                                                          do not know
                                                          what is the
                                                          current best
                                                          value of F for
                                                          polarization
                                                          measurement.
                                                          You can look
                                                          up
                                                          Gravitational
                                                          Faraday Effect
                                                          also. I did
                                                          “poke my nose”
                                                          there in the
                                                          past; but
                                                          could not find
                                                          anything
                                                          measurable.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(0,51,0);">     Second, more
                                                          fundamental
                                                          physics. All
                                                          material based
                                                          waves and
                                                          light waves
                                                          require a
                                                          continuous
                                                          tension field
                                                          that steadily
                                                          gets pushed
                                                          away from the
                                                          original site
                                                          of
                                                          perturbation
                                                          induced on the
                                                          field;
                                                          provided the
                                                          perturbation
                                                          does not
                                                          exceed the
                                                          restoration
                                                          linearity
                                                          condition
                                                          (“Young’s
                                                          Modulus”, or
                                                          equivalent).
                                                          For, stretched
                                                          material
                                                          string, the
                                                          mechanical
                                                          tension is T
                                                          and the
                                                          restoration
                                                          force is the
                                                          “inertial
                                                          mass” “Sigma”
                                                          per unit
                                                          length; then
                                                          string-wave
                                                          v-squared
                                                          =T/Sigma. For
                                                          light,
                                                          c-squared =
Epsilon-inverse/Mu. Epsilon-inverse is the electric tension and Mu is
                                                          the magnetic
                                                          restoration
                                                          force. These
                                                          analogies are
                                                          explained in
                                                          some of my
                                                          papers; I have
                                                          sent earlier.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(0,51,0);">      Now my very basic
                                                          question for
                                                          the experts in
                                                          GW: <b><i>How
                                                          do you define
                                                          the GW-tension
                                                          field?</i></b>
                                                          All
                                                          spontaneously
                                                          propagating
                                                          waves require
                                                          a steady and
                                                          continuous
                                                          tension field
                                                          in which a
                                                          suitable
                                                          perturbation
                                                          triggers the
                                                          original wave.
                                                          What is the
                                                          velocity of GW
                                                          and what are
                                                          the
                                                          corresponding
                                                          tension and
                                                          restoration
                                                          parameters? If
                                                          you say, it is
                                                          the same
                                                          velocity as
                                                          “c”, for the
                                                          EM wave; then
                                                          <b><i>we have
                                                          some serious
                                                          confusion to
                                                          resolve</i></b>.
                                                          Are the
                                                          tension and
                                                          restoration
                                                          parameters
                                                          same as those
                                                          for EM waves?
                                                          Then, why
                                                          should we call
                                                          it GW; instead
                                                          of pulsed EM
                                                          waves? Or, <b><i>are
                                                          the two
                                                          parameters
                                                          really
                                                          physically
                                                          different for
                                                          GW</i></b>(should
                                                          be); but
                                                          GW-velocity
                                                          number just
                                                          happens to
                                                          coincide with
                                                          “c”?</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(0,51,0);">     I took Einstein’s
                                                          explanation
                                                          for the origin
                                                          of Gravity as
                                                          the “Curvature
                                                          of Space”
                                                          literally, as
                                                          the Potential
                                                          Gradient
                                                          generated
                                                          around any
                                                          assembly of
                                                          Baryonic
                                                          Particles. So,
                                                          a pair of
                                                          rotating
                                                          binary stars
                                                          will generate
                                                          a periodically
                                                          oscillating
                                                          potential
                                                          gradient.
                                                          Whatever the
                                                          value of the
                                                          effective
                                                          gravity of a
                                                          “stationary”
                                                          binary star
                                                          around earth
                                                          is; it would
                                                          be oscillating
                                                          slightly when
                                                          the
                                                          “stationary”
                                                          binary stars
                                                          start rotating
                                                          around
                                                          themselves.
                                                          But, this is
                                                          not Gravity
                                                          Wave to me. It
                                                          is a
                                                          phenomenon of
                                                          “locally”
                                                          changing value
                                                          of the
                                                          “curvature of
                                                          space”; not a
                                                          passing by
                                                          wave. Imagine
                                                          the typical
                                                          “trampoline
                                                          demo” for
                                                          Einsteinian
                                                          gravity with a
                                                          heavy iron
                                                          ball at the
                                                          depressed
                                                          center. If you
                                                          periodically
                                                          magnetically
                                                          attract the
                                                          iron ball to
                                                          effectively
                                                          reduce the
                                                          trampoline
                                                          curvature; we
                                                          are not
                                                          generating
                                                          propagating
                                                          GW; we are
                                                          periodically
                                                          changing the
                                                          local
                                                          “curvature”! </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(0,51,0);">     These comments should
                                                          give you some
                                                          pragmatic
                                                          “food for
                                                          thought”! </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(0,51,0);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(0,51,0);">Chandra.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:
                                                          11.0pt;color:
                                                          rgb(0,51,0);"> </span></a></p>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="border:
none;border-top: solid rgb(181,196,223) 1.0pt;padding: 3.0pt 0.0in 0.0in
                                                          0.0in;">
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                                          style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;"> General [<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                                                          <b>On Behalf
                                                          Of </b>John
                                                          Macken<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Saturday,
                                                          January 21,
                                                          2017 4:14 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b>
                                                          'Nature of
                                                          Light and
                                                          Particles -
                                                          General
                                                          Discussion'<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re: [General]
                                                          light and
                                                          particles
                                                          group</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">Chandra,</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">I have one quick question for you and the group to
                                                          consider.  You
                                                          mention that
                                                          Maxwell
                                                          connected the
                                                          speed of light
                                                          to the
                                                          properties of
                                                          space (epsilon
                                                          and mu). To
                                                          explain my
                                                          question, I
                                                          first have to
                                                          give some
                                                          background
                                                          which is
                                                          accomplished
                                                          by quoting a
                                                          short section
                                                          of the
                                                          previously
                                                          attached
                                                          paper. </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">“Gravitational
                                                          waves (GWs)
                                                          propagate in
                                                          the medium of
                                                          spacetime.
                                                          They are
                                                          transverse
                                                          quadrupole
                                                          waves which
                                                          slightly
                                                          distort the
                                                          “fabric of
                                                          space”.  For
                                                          example, a GW
                                                          propagating in
                                                          the “Z”
                                                          direction
                                                          would cause a
                                                          sphere made
                                                          from baryonic
                                                          matter such as
                                                          metal to
                                                          become an
                                                          oscillating
                                                          ellipsoid. 
                                                          When the
                                                          sphere expands
                                                          in the X
                                                          direction it
                                                          contracts in
                                                          the Y
                                                          direction and
                                                          vice versa.
                                                          The GW
                                                          produces: 1)
                                                          no change in
                                                          the total
                                                          volume of the
                                                          oscillating
                                                          sphere 2) no
                                                          change in the
                                                          rate of time,
                                                          3) no
                                                          displacement
                                                          of the center
                                                          of mass of the
                                                          oscillating
                                                          sphere. </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Point #3 addresses an important point. If
                                                          there are two
                                                          isolated
                                                          masses such as
                                                          two LIGO
                                                          interferometer
                                                          mirrors
                                                          suspended by
                                                          wires [17],
                                                          the passage of
                                                          a GW does not
                                                          move the
                                                          mirror’s
                                                          center of
                                                          mass.  Instead
                                                          of the mirrors
                                                          physically
                                                          moving, the GW
                                                          changes the
                                                          properties of
                                                          spacetime
                                                          producing a
                                                          redshift and a
                                                          blue shift on
                                                          LIGO’s laser
                                                          beams.  This
                                                          difference in
                                                          wavelength is
                                                          detected by
                                                          the
                                                          interferometer
                                                          as a fringe
                                                          shift…”</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">With this introduction, the questions are:</span></p>
                                                        <ol start="1"
                                                          style="margin-top:
                                                          0.0in;"
                                                          type="1">
                                                          <li
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">Should a GW effect the permeability and permittivity of
                                                          free space?</li>
                                                          <li
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">Should the two orthogonal  polarizations of a GW
                                                          produce
                                                          opposite
                                                          effects on the
                                                          permeability
                                                          and
                                                          permittivity
                                                          of free space?</li>
                                                          <li
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">Since epsilon and mu determine the speed of light,
                                                          should a GW
                                                          produce a
                                                          different
                                                          effect on the
                                                          two orthogonal
                                                          polarizations
                                                          of light?</li>
                                                        </ol>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">If the answer to question #3 is yes, then this suggests
                                                          that it should
                                                          be possible to
                                                          detect GWs by
                                                          monitoring the
                                                          polarization
                                                          of a laser
                                                          beam.  It is
                                                          vastly simpler
                                                          to detect a
                                                          slight
                                                          difference in
                                                          the
                                                          polarization
                                                          of a single
                                                          beam of light
                                                          than it is to
                                                          detect the
                                                          same optical
                                                          shift between
                                                          two arms of an
interferometer.  The interferometer encounters vibration noise to a much
                                                          greater degree
                                                          than is
                                                          encountered in
                                                          the
                                                          polarization
                                                          of a single
                                                          laser beam.
                                                           Also,
                                                          multiple laser
                                                          beams could
                                                          identify the
                                                          direction of
                                                          the GW much
                                                          better than an
interferometer.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">Perhaps this is off the subject of the discussion
                                                          group. But it
                                                          is an example
                                                          of a subject
                                                          which might be
                                                          low hanging
                                                          fruit that
                                                          could make a
                                                          historic
                                                          contribution
                                                          to physics. 
                                                          In the past I
                                                          have made the
                                                          suggestion
                                                          that GWs
                                                          produce a
                                                          polarization
                                                          effect, but
                                                          this
                                                          suggestion is
                                                          lacking
                                                          additional
                                                          insight and
                                                          analysis to be
                                                          taken
                                                          seriously.  Is
                                                          there anyone
                                                          in this group
                                                          with the
                                                          expertise to
                                                          contribute to
                                                          this study?  </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">John M.  </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="border:
none;border-top: solid rgb(225,225,225) 1.0pt;padding: 3.0pt 0.0in 0.0in
                                                          0.0in;">
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                                          style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;"> General [<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                                                          <b>On Behalf
                                                          Of </b>Roychoudhuri,
                                                          Chandra<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Saturday,
                                                          January 21,
                                                          2017 11:56 AM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b>
                                                          Nature of
                                                          Light and
                                                          Particles -
                                                          General
                                                          Discussion
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re: [General]
                                                          light and
                                                          particles
                                                          group</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(153,51,102);">“Gravitational waves
                                                          indicate
                                                          vacuum energy
                                                          exists”, paper
                                                          by John Macken</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(153,51,102);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(153,51,102);">John M.: Thanks for
                                                          attaching your
                                                          paper. <b><i>The
                                                          title clearly
                                                          indicates that
                                                          we really are
                                                          in basic
                                                          agreement. The
                                                          cosmic space
                                                          has physical
                                                          properties.</i></b>
                                                          I have
                                                          expressed my
                                                          views a bit
                                                          differently,
                                                          that the
                                                          cosmic space
                                                          is a <b><i>stationary
                                                          </i></b>Complex
                                                          Tension Filed
                                                          (CTF), <b><i>holding
                                                          100% of the
                                                          cosmic energy</i></b>
                                                          in the
                                                          attached
                                                          papers and in
                                                          my book,
                                                          “Causal
                                                          Physics”. <b><i>If
                                                          the so-called
                                                          vacuous cosmic
                                                          space and the
                                                          CTF were not
                                                          inseparable,
                                                          the velocity
                                                          of light would
                                                          have been
                                                          different
                                                          through
                                                          different
                                                          regions of the
                                                          cosmic space</i></b>!</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(153,51,102);">     I just do not
                                                          like to
                                                          continue to
                                                          use the word
                                                          “vacuum”
                                                          because, in
                                                          the English
                                                          language, it
                                                          has acquired a
                                                          very different
                                                          meaning
                                                          (“nothing”)
                                                          for absolute
                                                          majority of
                                                          people over
                                                          many
                                                          centuries. It
                                                          is better not
                                                          to confuse
                                                          common people
                                                          by asserting
                                                          new meanings
                                                          on very old
                                                          and very well
                                                          established
                                                          words. </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(153,51,102);">     Further, in your
                                                          support, the
                                                          quantitative
                                                          values of at
                                                          least two
                                                          physical
                                                          properties,</span>
                                                          <span
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11.0pt;color:
rgb(153,51,102);">Epsilon & Mu, of the comic space have already
                                                          presented as
                                                          quantified
                                                          properties by
                                                          Maxwell around
                                                          1867 through
                                                          his wave
                                                          equation.
                                                          Recall
                                                          (c-squared)=(1/Epsilon.Mu).
                                                          These
                                                          properties of
                                                          the cosmic
                                                          space were
                                                          already
                                                          quantified
                                                          before Maxwell
                                                          by the early
                                                          developers of
                                                          electrostatics
                                                          and magneto
                                                          statics.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(153,51,102);">     I assume that you
                                                          are suggesting
                                                          us that we
                                                          need to
                                                          postulate and
                                                          quantify other
                                                          physical
                                                          properties
                                                          possessed by
                                                          this cosmic
                                                          space (<b><i>Maxwellian
                                                          or Faraday
                                                          Tension Field</i></b>?),
                                                          so that the
                                                          “emergent
                                                          dynamic
                                                          particles” out
                                                          of this cosmic
                                                          space would
                                                          display all
                                                          the properties
                                                          we have
                                                          already been
                                                          measuring for
                                                          well over a
                                                          century.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(153,51,102);">      However, I
                                                          disagree, as
                                                          of now, that
                                                          cosmic space
                                                          is
                                                          “space-time”
                                                          four
                                                          dimensional.
                                                          Because, the
                                                          “running time”
                                                          is not a
                                                          measurable
                                                          physical
                                                          parameter of
                                                          any physical
                                                          entity that we
                                                          know of in
                                                          this universe.
                                                          So, I assert
                                                          that the
                                                          “running time”
                                                          cannot be
                                                          altered by any
                                                          physical
                                                          process. <b><i>Humans
                                                          have smartly
                                                          derived the
                                                          concept of
                                                          “running time”
                                                          using various
                                                          kinds of
                                                          harmonic
                                                          oscillators
                                                          and/or
                                                          periodic
                                                          motions.</i></b>
                                                          We can alter
                                                          the frequency
                                                          of a physical
                                                          oscillator by
                                                          changing its
                                                          physical
                                                          environment.
                                                          Of course,
                                                          this is my
                                                          personal
                                                          perception, <b><i>not
                                                          supported by
                                                          the entire
                                                          group</i></b>.
                                                          But, that is
                                                          precisely the
                                                          purpose of
                                                          this free and
                                                          honest
                                                          discussions so
                                                          we can learn
                                                          from each
                                                          other. As my
                                                          understanding
                                                          evolves; I
                                                          might change
                                                          back my mind
                                                          and accept
                                                          space as four-
                                                          or even
                                                          thirteen-dimensional.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(153,51,102);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(153,51,102);">Chandra.</span></p>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="border:
none;border-top: solid rgb(181,196,223) 1.0pt;padding: 3.0pt 0.0in 0.0in
                                                          0.0in;">
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                                          style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;"> General [<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                                                          <b>On Behalf
                                                          Of </b>John
                                                          Macken<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Saturday,
                                                          January 21,
                                                          2017 1:37 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b>
                                                          'Nature of
                                                          Light and
                                                          Particles -
                                                          General
                                                          Discussion';
                                                          'Andrew
                                                          Worsley'<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b>
                                                          'M.A.'<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re: [General]
                                                          light and
                                                          particles
                                                          group</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">Dear Chandra and All,</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">You have said “</span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;">We
                                                          definitely
                                                          have advanced
                                                          our <b><i>collective
                                                          understanding</i></b>
                                                          that <b><i>space
                                                          is not empty
                                                          and the
                                                          particles are
                                                          some form of
                                                          emergent
                                                          properties of
                                                          this same
                                                          universal
                                                          cosmic field.</i></b></span><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">”  The idea that space is not an empty void has not
                                                          been
                                                          quantified in
                                                          any model of
                                                          spacetime
                                                          proposed by
                                                          members of
                                                           the group. </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">I have concentrated in defining and quantifying the
                                                          properties of
                                                          the vacuum and
                                                          the results
                                                          are presented
                                                          in the
                                                          attached
                                                          paper.  This
                                                          paper analyzes
                                                          the properties
                                                          of spacetime
                                                          encountered by
                                                          gravitational
                                                          waves.  The
                                                          conclusion is
                                                          that spacetime
                                                          is a sea of
                                                          Planck length
                                                          vacuum
                                                          fluctuations
                                                          that oscillate
                                                          at Planck
                                                          frequency.
                                                          This model can
                                                          be quantified,
                                                          analyzed and
                                                          tested.  It is
                                                          shown that
                                                          this model
                                                          gives the
                                                          correct energy
                                                          for virtual
                                                          particle
                                                          formation.  It
                                                          also gives the
                                                          correct energy
                                                          density for
                                                          black holes,
                                                          the correct
                                                          zero point
                                                          energy density
                                                          of the
                                                          universe
                                                          (about 10<sup>113</sup>
                                                          J/m<sup>3</sup>)
                                                          and generates
                                                          the Friedmann
                                                          equation for
                                                          the critical
                                                          density of the
                                                          universe
                                                          (about 10<sup>-26</sup>
                                                          kg/m<sup>3</sup>
                                                          =  10<sup>-9</sup>
                                                          J/m<sup>3</sup>).
                                                          </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">The reason for mentioning this to a group interested in
                                                          the structure
                                                          of electrons,
                                                           photons and
                                                          electric
                                                          fields is that
                                                          the
                                                          quantifiable
                                                          properties of
                                                          spacetime must
                                                          be
                                                          incorporated
                                                          into any
                                                          particle or
                                                          field  model.
                                                          </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(32,24,140);">John  M.</span></p>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="border:
none;border-top: solid rgb(225,225,225) 1.0pt;padding: 3.0pt 0.0in 0.0in
                                                          0.0in;">
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                                          style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;"> General [<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                                                          <b>On Behalf
                                                          Of </b>Roychoudhuri,
                                                          Chandra<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Saturday,
                                                          January 21,
                                                          2017 8:45 AM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b>
                                                          Andrew Worsley
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:worsley333@gmail.com"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='worsley333@gmail.com';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">worsley333@gmail.com</a>>; Light & particles. Web
                                                          discussion
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b>
                                                          M.A. <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ambroselli@phys.uconn.edu"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='ambroselli@phys.uconn.edu';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">ambroselli@phys.uconn.edu</a>><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re: [General]
                                                          light and
                                                          particles
                                                          group</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Dear Andrew Worsely: </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;">    This is a platform for ethical, serious
                                                          and honest
                                                          discussions on
                                                          scientific
                                                          issues that
                                                          the prevailing
                                                          mainstream
                                                          platforms have
                                                          been shunning.
                                                          We definitely
                                                          do not want to
                                                          sow
                                                          unsubstantiated
                                                          distrust
                                                          within this
                                                          group. <b><i>This
                                                          not a
                                                          political
                                                          forum where
                                                          sophisticated
                                                          deceptions are
                                                          highly prized;
                                                          which has been
intellectualized as “post-truth”!</i></b> This is not a “post-truth”
                                                          forum.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;">     So, please, <b><i><span style="color:
                                                          rgb(192,0,0);">help
                                                          us</span></i></b><span
                                                          style="color:
                                                          rgb(192,0,0);">
                                                          </span>by
                                                          getting help
                                                          from computer
                                                          professionals
                                                          before
                                                          repeating any
                                                          further
                                                          unsubstantiated
                                                          accusations.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;">     If you can definitively identify anybody
                                                          within our
                                                          group carrying
                                                          out unethical
                                                          and
                                                          destructive
                                                          activities;
                                                          obviously, we
                                                          would bar such
                                                          persons from
                                                          this group
                                                          discussion.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Chandra.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Dear All Participants:    </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Please be vigilant in maintaining the
                                                          essential
                                                          ethics behind
                                                          this
                                                          discussion
                                                          forum –
                                                          honestly
                                                          accept or
                                                          reject others’
                                                          opinions;
                                                          preferably, <b><i>build
                                                          upon them.
                                                          This is the
                                                          main objective
                                                          of this forum
                                                          as this would
                                                          advance real
                                                          progress in
                                                          physics out of
                                                          the currently
                                                          stagnant
                                                          culture</i></b>.
                                                          While we have
                                                          not come to
                                                          realize any
                                                          broadly-acceptable
                                                          major
                                                          break-through
                                                          out of this
                                                          forum; we
                                                          definitely
                                                          have advanced
                                                          our <b><i>collective
                                                          understanding</i></b>
                                                          that <b><i>space
                                                          is not empty
                                                          and the
                                                          particles are
                                                          some form of
                                                          emergent
                                                          properties of
                                                          this same
                                                          universal
                                                          cosmic field.</i></b>
                                                          This, in
                                                          itself, is
                                                          significant;
                                                          because the
                                                          approach of
                                                          this group to
                                                          particle
                                                          physics is
                                                          significantly
                                                          different from
                                                          the
                                                          mainstream. I
                                                          definitely see
                                                          a better
                                                          future for
                                                          physics out of
                                                          this thinking:
                                                          Space is a
                                                          real physical
                                                          field and
                                                          observables
                                                          are
                                                          manifestation
                                                          (different
                                                          forms of
                                                          excited
                                                          states) of
                                                          this field.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;">      Most of you are aware that our SPIE
                                                          conference
                                                          series, which
                                                          was continuing
                                                          since 2005,
                                                          has been
                                                          abruptly shut
                                                          down without
                                                          serious valid
                                                          justifications
                                                          (complains
                                                          from
                                                          “knowledgeable
                                                          people” that
                                                          “bad apples”
                                                          have joined
                                                          in). We
                                                          certainly do
                                                          not want
                                                          something
                                                          similar happen
                                                          to this web
                                                          discussion
                                                          forum due to
                                                          internal
                                                          dissentions
                                                          and internal
                                                          unethical
                                                          behavior.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Many thanks for your vigilance and support.</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Respectfully,</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;">Chandra. </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                                          style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;"> Andrew Worsley [<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:worsley333@gmail.com"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='worsley333@gmail.com';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">mailto:worsley333@gmail.com</a>]<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          Saturday,
                                                          January 21,
                                                          2017 4:49 AM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b>
                                                          John Duffield<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b>
                                                          Roychoudhuri,
                                                          Chandra;
                                                          ANDREW WORSLEY<br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Re: Andrew
                                                          Worsley, light
                                                          and particles
                                                          group</span></p>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Hi
                                                          John,</p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Could
                                                          be a
                                                          coincidence,
                                                          but some damn
                                                          troll from the
                                                          discussion
                                                          group (called
                                                          Vladimir) has
                                                          screwed up my
                                                          email which I
                                                          have had
                                                          problem free
                                                          for the last
                                                          20 years- and
                                                          my computer is
                                                          now going
                                                          suspiciously
                                                          slow.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Andrew</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">On
                                                          Thu, Jan 19,
                                                          2017 at 7:44
                                                          PM, John
                                                          Duffield <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='johnduffield@btconnect.com';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">johnduffield@btconnect.com</a>> wrote:</p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Chandra:
                                                          </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Please
                                                          can you add
                                                          Andrew Worsley
                                                          to the nature
                                                          of light and
                                                          particles
                                                          group. I’ve
                                                          met him
                                                          personally,
                                                          and think he
                                                          has a valuable
                                                          contribution
                                                          to make. </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Apologies
                                                          if you’ve
                                                          already done
                                                          this, but
                                                          Andrew tells
                                                          me he’s
                                                          received a <i>blocked
                                                          by moderator</i>
                                                          message. </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Regards</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>John
                                                          Duffield</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>7
                                                          Gleneagles
                                                          Avenue</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Poole</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>BH14
                                                          9LJ</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>UK</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          style="color:
rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="border:
none;border-top: solid rgb(225,225,225) 1.0pt;padding: 3.0pt 0.0in 0.0in
                                                          0.0in;">
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
                                                          John Duffield
                                                          [mailto:<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:johnduffield@btconnect.com"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='johnduffield@btconnect.com';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">johnduffield@btconnect.com</a>]<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b>
                                                          09 January
                                                          2017 08:34<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b>
                                                          'Roychoudhuri,
                                                          Chandra' <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">chandra.roychoudhuri@uconn.edu</a>><br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b>
                                                          'ANDREW
                                                          WORSLEY' <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:member@aworsley.fsnet.co.uk"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='member@aworsley.fsnet.co.uk';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">member@aworsley.fsnet.co.uk</a>>; 'John Williamson'
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk</a>>; 'Martin Van Der
                                                          Mark' <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:martinvandermark1@gmail.com"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='martinvandermark1@gmail.com';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">martinvandermark1@gmail.com</a>><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b>
                                                          Andrew
                                                          Worsley, light
                                                          and particles
                                                          group</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Chandra:
                                                          </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Please
                                                          can you add
                                                          Andrew Worsley
                                                          (<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:worsley333@gmail.com"
                                                          onclick="parent.window.location.href='worsley333@gmail.com';
                                                          return false;"
target="_blank">worsley333@gmail.com</a>) to the nature of light and
                                                          particles
                                                          group. I’ve
                                                          met him
                                                          personally,
                                                          and think he
                                                          has a valuable
                                                          contribution
                                                          to make. He
                                                          has described
                                                          the electron
                                                          as being what
                                                          you might call
                                                          a quantum
                                                          harmonic
                                                          structure. 
                                                          The electron
                                                          in an orbital
                                                          is described
                                                          by spherical
                                                          harmonics, the
                                                          electron
                                                          itself might
                                                          be described
                                                          by spherical
                                                          (or toroidal)
                                                          harmonics. </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>Regards</span></p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span>JohnD</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
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