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<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Hi Albrecht,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>I'm not sure how you figure that your
two cases in any way discount my proposal. If the 'gravitational effects'
of a massive body are in fact just the extended electromagnetic manifestation of
that body (i.e. of all its constituent particles) then that extended
manifestation will move synchronously with the part of that body that we
register with our senses. It follows that, whilst that extended
manifestation is at all times present throughout the cosmos, the 'intensity
distribution' of that manifestation at any point (to use a limited analogy)
will also move in perfect time with the perceived part of that body (in simple
terms, subject to the inverse square law in respect of perceived position of
that object) - in other words the 'gravitational field' will vary in
(space)time exactly as one would expect of a gravitational field with zero
latency.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>I believe that's fully consistent
with observations regarding the two examples you cite - if they in turn are
consistent with the possibility of 'propagation of gravitational effects being
instantaneous'. To me the whole picture ties together seamlessly.
The composite of all of those extended manifestations, varying in position in
spacetime as their perceived 'cores' move, constitute the texture of spacetime
that "tells matter how to move" (to quote Wheeler) - the 'curvature' of
spacetime, as it's generally termed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>I hope that helps.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Grahame</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=genmail@a-giese.de href="mailto:genmail@a-giese.de">Albrecht
Giese</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists..natureoflightandparticles.org</A>
; <A title=wolf@nascentinc.com
href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com">wolf@nascentinc.com</A> ; <A
title=af.kracklauer@web.de
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</A> ; <A
title=phys@a-giese.de href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de">phys@a-giese.de</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 29, 2017 8:38
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] HA: Gravity</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P><U>Grahame,</U></P>
<P>you say: " ... <FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial> the
'effects of gravity' are in fact the consequences of those distributed
entities ALREADY being present to some degree at every point in the
cosmos</FONT> ... "<BR></P>
<P>But look at the following cases: 1.) There may be two twin stars which
orbit each other. Their distance is rapidly changing during an orbit. So the
gravitational influences to their environment will change. And for this change
I see the question justified which the propagation speed of this influence is.
I think that your statement above does not cover this case, true?
2.) An even less regular case: I know a colleague (professor) who has
built and performs an experiment to determine again the gravitational
constant. In doing this he has two massive objects which he moves towards each
other or apart from each other and measures the force between them. This
process depends on his momentary decisions, so it is completely irregular
compared to other physical processes. So, also in this case, nothing is
constant or even predetermined.</P>
<P><U>Wolf,</U></P>
<P>there was an interesting development in our understanding of the physics of
gravity. About a hundred years ago it was the general opinion that gravity is
the simplest and most fundamental force in physics. This may also have been
the reason that gravity is a fundamental parameter in the definition of the
Planck units. At present, however, the representatives of the German Einstein
Institute say that gravity is the least understood and perhaps most
complicated force. <BR></P>
<P>The idea to connect gravity in some way to the electric force comes up
again and again. The reason is most probably that both follow the dependence
of range of 1/r<SUP>2</SUP>. (But this dependence can be explained
geometrically if we assume that forces are generally mediated by exchange
particles.) The idea of Jefimenko that there is a cogravitation as a kind of
different charge sign to make it compatible with electricity is a new and
severe assumption. I find it better not to permanently introduce new - an
unobserved - phenomena than to try to live with the existing ones (= Occam's
razor). <BR></P>
<P>Einstein has described gravity as a geometrical phenomenon, changing the
understanding of space and time. On the other hand Theodor Kaluza has
irritated Einstein with his hint that any force in physics can be explained by
a specific geometry of space and time. (Einstein has accepted that but was not
happy with it.) So, why not go back to physics and to forces in gravity rather
than using space-time.</P>
<P>Regarding the instantaneous propagation of gravity: To my knowledge this
was carefully investigated in past decades with the result that also gravity
is limited to c. I do not go back to the details. Should there be new
arguments which are not covered by the past discussions then this would
be a good reason to investigate this case again. But are there new arguments?
<BR></P>
<P>If we want progress in the realm of gravitation, I expect an answer to at
least one question: what is the cause of the weak equivalence principle, i.e.
the fact that all objects are having the same gravitational acceleration
independent of their inertial mass. Newton's theory of gravity does not answer
this, Einstein's does not answer it as well. Gravity has to answer it!<BR></P>
<P>Albrecht<BR></P><BR>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>Am 29.04.2017 um 00:28 schrieb Dr Grahame
Blackwell:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:7B2170EF96E8400C91DE997FA3D54D85@vincent type="cite">
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<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Wolf et al,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>You will note that my proposal re
gravity in my recently-circulated paper, as the 'extended being' of
spatially distributed entities that we (with our limited senses) perceive as
localised 'particles', implicitly proposes that the 'propagation speed of
gravity' is in fact infinite - since there is in actuality NO propagation
involved, the 'effects of gravity' are in fact the consequences of those
distributed entities ALREADY being present to some degree at every point in
the cosmos. I.e. 'everything is everywhere', to put it in simple
terms; as a 'physical massive object' moves (again, a simplistic term), the
WHOLE of its extended being moves with it and is immediately in a position
to manifest 'gravitational' effects of that object consistent with its
changed position, no matter how far spatially removed (more simplistic
concepts!) from what we perceive as the 'massive object'
itself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>This points to a far deeper truth
- that 'locality' and 'time' are both over-simplifications of deeper
concepts, foisted on us by an evolutionary process that's more interested
that we (a) breed, (b) find lunch and (c) don't become lunch - than it is in
us fathoming the underlying principles of cosmic structure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Grahame</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=wolf@nascentinc.com href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Wolfgang Baer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=af.kracklauer@web.de
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"
moz-do-not-send="true">af.kracklauer@web.de</A> ; <A title=phys@a-giese.de
href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de" moz-do-not-send="true">phys@a-giese.de</A> ;
<A title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists..natureoflightandparticles.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 28, 2017 11:11
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] HA:
Gravity</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P>Al:</P>
<P>I'm too concerned with gravity and charge as the fundamental
characteristics of mater in classic physics to appreciate deeper
explanations until the discrepancies or simpler questions have been
answered.</P>
<P>Is not Einstein's connection between gravity and space time based on
the use of EM wave phase measurements that define space time? In other
words masses interact with charges and EM propagation so that the
definition of a meter and a second with which we measure space and time
are the cause of the warping.</P>
<P>Even more important for me right now is the question of the speed of
gravity. I now had more of a chance to read Jefimenko's Gravitation and
Cogravitation which Al recommended, where he expands on the idea that
the equations correcting Newton's look more like EM with a
gravitational scalar and vector potential and a Lorenz like force
replacing newtons. In his chapter 20 he points out that the 43
seconds of arc precession of Mercury rather than being a proof of
Einstein's theory is actually a cause for questioning the validity of
Einstein's equations, Because Gerber's formula for the 43secnds was
based upon planetary calculations based upon Newton's Action at a distance
i.e. gravity goes the speed of infinity. Jefimenko points out that if
Newton's theory was wrong and gravity is not instantaneous than if
Einstein's theory explaning somthing wrong (the 43sec precession) is wrong
and Einstein's theory coming up with 43 seconds actually proves Einstein's
theory is wrong. Jefimenko calculates the value of the precession from his
theory is 14 arc sec. <BR></P>
<P>If gravity propagates instantly we are talking about a completely
different beast than Einstein's theory, and trying to explain an error
that is assumed correct just leads to more errors although the errors may
be self consistent.</P>
<P>Wolf</P>
<P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
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