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<p><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size="-1">Wolf,</font></p>
<p><font size="-1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">here
your numerical example of the twin case:</font><br>
</font></p>
<font size="-1"><br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><font size="-1">Am 03.06.2017 um 08:46
schrieb Wolfgang Baer:</font><br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:53120376-e0d6-cff1-9496-f812b403b40c@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Albrecht:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tell me why this is not thought experiment
that shows Einsteins SRT interpretation gives rize to a paradox
and therefore is wrong. <br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Twin Paradox Experiment:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ignore:
vglayout;position:absolute;z-index:1;margin-left:229px;margin-top:46px;
width:64px;height:59px"><img
src="cid:part1.3197971F.73301DA7@a-giese.de" height="59"
width="64"></span><span style="mso-ignore:vglayout;
position:absolute;z-index:2;margin-left:280px;margin-top:46px;width:64px;
height:58px"><img src="cid:part2.6AEF54EE.14B4BAD7@a-giese.de"
height="58" width="64"></span>1) Somewhere in an
intergalactic space far away from all local masses two identical
twins are accelerated to opposite velocities so that each thinks
the other is traveling away from themselves at velocity “v”.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>By
the equivalence principle both feel the equivalent of a
temporary gravitational force which slows their clocks the same
amount. They are now drifting apart </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ignore: vglayout"> </span></p>
<table align="left" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td height="7" width="148"><br>
</td>
<td width="64"><br>
</td>
<td width="144"><br>
</td>
<td width="65"><br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td height="58"><br>
</td>
<td align="left" valign="top"><img
src="cid:part3.9707E1DC.9D102015@a-giese.de" height="58"
width="64"></td>
<td><br>
</td>
<td rowspan="2" align="left" valign="top"><img
src="cid:part4.2358228C.858A2F52@a-giese.de" height="59"
width="65"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td height="1"><br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
cite="mid:53120376-e0d6-cff1-9496-f812b403b40c@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<br>
</blockquote>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">This has nothing to do
with the equivalence principle. It is true that both twin's clocks
run slower in motion, but it is <b>independent of the
acceleration </b>and purely caused by the linear motion. So, I
propose that we start here with a steady motion and omit the
acceleration phase.<br>
<br style="mso-ignore:vglayout" clear="ALL">
</font>
<blockquote
cite="mid:53120376-e0d6-cff1-9496-f812b403b40c@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal">2) Each of the twins feels he is standing
still and the other twin is moving with a constant velocity “v”
away. According to special relativity the relation between their
own time Δt and the time they believe the other twins elapsed
time <span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Δt’ is; Δt’ = Δt/
(1-v<sup>2</sup>/c<sup>2</sup>)<sup>1/2</sup>.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ignore: vglayout"> </span></p>
<table align="left" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td height="2" width="1"><br>
</td>
<td width="65"><br>
</td>
<td width="437"><br>
</td>
<td width="66"><br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td height="3"><br>
</td>
<td rowspan="3" align="left" valign="top"><img
src="cid:part5.2B948773.15063AC7@a-giese.de" height="66"
width="65"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td height="59"><br>
</td>
<td><br>
</td>
<td align="left" valign="top"><img
src="cid:part6.BF0908C9.C773DB18@a-giese.de" height="59"
width="66"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td height="4"><br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<br style="mso-ignore:vglayout" clear="ALL">
</blockquote>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">That is true except that
the relation is </font><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Δt’
= Δt * (1-v<sup>2</sup>/c<sup>2</sup>)<sup>1/2</sup> and I have
explained in a preceding mail that this does not mean a logical
conflict. </font>
<blockquote
cite="mid:53120376-e0d6-cff1-9496-f812b403b40c@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal">3) After 1 year on Twin 1’s<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>clock he believes twin
two’s clock is Δt<sub>1</sub>’ = Δt<sub>1</sub>/ (1-v<sup>2</sup>/c<sup>2</sup>)<sup>1/2</sup></p>
</blockquote>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">No, the correct equation
is </font><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Δt<sub>1</sub>’
= Δt<sub>1*</sub> (1-v<sup>2</sup>/c<sup>2</sup>)<sup>1/2</sup>
as the time slows down.<br>
</font>
<blockquote
cite="mid:53120376-e0d6-cff1-9496-f812b403b40c@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal"> After 1 year on Twin 1’s<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>clock he believes twin
two’s clock is Δt<sub>2</sub>’ = Δt<sub>2</sub>/ (1-v<sup>2</sup>/c<sup>2</sup>)<sup>1/2</sup></p>
</blockquote>
<sup><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"></font></sup><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Equivalently to the above
there is </font><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Δt<sub>2</sub>’
= Δt<sub>2 *</sub> (1-v<sup>2</sup>/c<sup>2</sup>)<sup>1/2</sup> .<br>
</font>
<blockquote
cite="mid:53120376-e0d6-cff1-9496-f812b403b40c@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal">Thus Δt<sub>1</sub>= Δt<sub>2</sub>= 12
months Lets assume the velocities are such that Δt<sub>1</sub>’
= Δt<sub>2</sub>’ = 13 months. </p>
</blockquote>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">This is possible but does
not follow from your equation.</font>
<blockquote
cite="mid:53120376-e0d6-cff1-9496-f812b403b40c@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">4) After one year on their own clock each
twin fires a retro rocket that reverses their velocities. By the
equivalence principle the both clocks experience a gravity like
force and their clocks speed up. Lets assume the acceleration
lasts 1 day on their own clocks so now <span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Δt<sub>1</sub>= Δt<sub>2</sub>=
12 months + 1day and knowing the plan Δt<sub>1</sub>’ = Δt<sub>2</sub>’
= 13m + 1d</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ignore: vglayout"> </span></p>
<table align="left" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td height="4" width="154"><br>
</td>
<td width="64"><br>
</td>
<td width="143"><br>
</td>
<td width="65"><br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td height="3"><br>
</td>
<td colspan="2"><br>
</td>
<td rowspan="2" align="left" valign="top"><img
src="cid:part7.02C32CB5.5F91230D@a-giese.de" height="59"
width="65"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td height="56"><br>
</td>
<td rowspan="2" align="left" valign="top"><img
src="cid:part8.5F0618C8.7DD518AA@a-giese.de" height="64"
width="64"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td height="8"><br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<br style="mso-ignore:vglayout" clear="ALL">
</blockquote>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">No, not correct. If this
would be influenced by acceleration and by gravity (which is not
the case) then the gravitational influence would slow down the
clocks and not speed up. A gravitational field causes a slow down
of clocks according to<br>
<br>
</font><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Δt' = </font><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Δt * (1-r<sub>0</sub>/r)
where r<sub>0</sub> is the Schwarzschild radius. So </font><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">Δt'</font> is slowed down. <br>
<br>
</font>
<blockquote
cite="mid:53120376-e0d6-cff1-9496-f812b403b40c@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal">5) Now the two twins are drifting with the
same relative velocity but toward each other with opposite
signs. Each twin thinks the others clocks are lowing down by the
formula Δt’ = Δt/ (1-v<sup>2</sup>/c<sup>2</sup>)<sup>1/2</sup>.
They drift for exactly one year and now Δt<sub>1</sub>= Δt<sub>2</sub>=
24 months + 1day and they believing in special relativity think
Δt<sub>1</sub>’ = Δt<sub>2</sub>’ = 26 months.+ 1.083days.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ignore:vglayout;
position:relative;z-index:6"><span
style="position:absolute;left:264px;
top:-22px;width:64px;height:59px"><img
src="cid:part9.517C7B32.8E6657E1@a-giese.de" height="59"
width="64"></span></span><span style="mso-ignore:
vglayout;position:relative;z-index:5"><span
style="position:absolute;
left:213px;top:-21px;width:64px;height:59px"><img
src="cid:part10.599CD3E9.A746543E@a-giese.de" height="59"
width="64"></span></span><span style="mso-tab-count:4">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</blockquote>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">No, this has several
errors as I have already explained in the preceding mail. Each
twin, when he fires the retro rocket, knows that he leaves his
original frame. So, as he knows relativity, he realizes that his
clock is now running more slowly than before. He knows that now
his clock will, compared the the run of his clock in the preceding
phase, measure the time according to </font><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">Δt<sub>1</sub>’ = Δt<sub>1*</sub> (1-v<sup>2</sup>/c<sup>2</sup>)<sup>1/2</sup>
. So the drift of his time will be, when back to his starting
point, T = </font><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Δt<sub>1</sub></font> + </font><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">Δt<sub>1</sub>’</font> . And the other twin will
have </font><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">T = </font><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">Δt<sub>2</sub></font> + </font><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">Δt<sub>2</sub>’</font></font> and so the
same result. <br>
</font>
<blockquote
cite="mid:53120376-e0d6-cff1-9496-f812b403b40c@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal">6) now the stop rocket fires for half a day
on each twins clock and the twins come to rest exactly at the
place they started. Their own clocks tell Δt<sub>1</sub>= Δt<sub>2</sub>=
24 months + 1.5day and they believing in special relativity
think the others clock should be Δt<sub>1</sub>’ = Δt<sub>2</sub>’
= 26 months.+ 1.583days.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span><span
style="mso-tab-count:1"> </span>They get out of
their space ship/ coordinate frames and find that the two clocks
tell exactly the same time so their belief in special relativity
was wrong. </p>
</blockquote>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Twin 1 will have measured
as given above, using your example, T = 12 </font><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">months</font> +13 </font><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">months</font>
= 25 months. Twin 2 will have the same result, and both results </font><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">fully </font><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">conform to special
relativity. <br>
<br>
And, by the way, this gedanken experiment is in fact not a
paradox. There are paradoxes like the Ehrenfest paradox which is
differently interpreted by specialists. But the case with the
twins is an example from the early time of SR and it is raised
from time to time again by those who start to understand SR.<br>
</font>
<blockquote
cite="mid:53120376-e0d6-cff1-9496-f812b403b40c@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/30/2017 1:37 PM, Albrecht Giese
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:666dc9c5-a2ae-72b5-99e4-864dd32cb890@a-giese.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<p>Wolf,</p>
<p>before we enter discussions about details I send you a
drawing of my experiment with some explanations. I think that
it is simple enough so that we do not need too much philosophy
about epistemology to understand it.</p>
<p>My drawing: At the left side you see a part of the ring of
the synchrotron in which the electrons cycle. They hit the
target T (at 0 m) where they are converted into photons. The
photons fly until the target H<sub>2</sub> where they are
deflected by a small angle (about one degree) (at 30.5 m). The
deflected photons meet the converter (KONV at 35 m) where a
portion of the photons is converted into an electron- position
pair. The pair is detected and analysed in the configuration
of the magnet 2 MC 30 and telescopes of spark chambers (FT
between 37.5 and 39.5 m). The rest of detectors at the right
is for monitoring the basic photon beam.</p>
<p>In the magnet and the telescopes the tracks of both particles
(electron and positron) are measured and the momentum and the
energy of both particles is determined.</p>
<p>Here all flying objects are interpreted as being particles,
there is no wave model needed. So, I do not see where we
should need here any QM. <br>
</p>
<p>The rest of the mail will be commented later.</p>
<p>Albrecht<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 29.05.2017 um 20:19 schrieb
Wolfgang Baer:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:e3bc1c99-7194-ae49-d8d0-231776cc9d1a@nascentinc.com">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<p>Andrew , Albrecht:</p>
<p>"physics happens by itself" Disagree "an observer is not
required for the universe to go on doing what it does. "
Disagree</p>
<p>This is the old classic the world is the way we see it
concept promoted by Aristotle, Aquinas, Newton, etc. and
dominated thinking for 1000years</p>
<p>until quantum Mechanics began to realize that the in
principle un-observable interior of matter was always a
mental projection requiring an observer. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>" governed and filtered by the laws which create the
things" Baer's first law of physics is that the physicist
created the law. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>"space as a tensor medium and not empty" Agree it is not an
empty medium, but a tensor description is a linear
approximation <br>
</p>
<p> The medium can be completely torn
apart only such processes involve life and death of self and
are taboo in science. This is in fact the the path of
development for quantum theory<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Albrecht;</p>
<p>Do you have a diagram of your thesis experiment. Your
descriptions are all on the theoretical "unknowable" side,
which of course you believe describes physical reality,
and no one would argue that our (your) theory is not self
consistent, but to discuss the wave particle problem one
needs to identify the vonNeuman cut between subjective
personal observation and the un-observable domain described
by the theory. Where are the detectors that tell you how the
"unknowable" was stimulated and the detectors that tell you
the "unknowable's" response and the detectors that tell you
how some of the theoretical elements along the theoretical
path inside the "unknowable" were controlled?</p>
<p>Once we have such transition points between theory and
observations identified I think I can show you that the QM
probability wave picture is self consistent but also does
science a great disservice by hiding and ridiculing
speculation, research and experiment in deeper causes for
the probabilistic phenomena <br>
</p>
<p>A single atomic transition billions of light years away
must be a particle to reach a similar atom and cause a
transition in an atom in a detector on earth. And the fact
that this particle transmission angle is random and
exteeeeeeemly narrow (violating the uncertainty principle)
and therefor just happens to hit our detector as purely
random QM event leaving us with a Bohm guiding wave that
controls the probabilities. It all makes sense only, <b><font
size="+2">IF</font></b><font size="+2"><font size="-2">
</font></font>you stop your analysis at the external
objective aspect of reality and fail to realize that <i>beyond</i>
the emission at the distant galaxy and the absorption of the
"photon" in your retina is the other half of the causal path
which describes your subjective existence, <b><font
size="+2">then</font></b> you will be blissfully happy
with the self consistent QM explanation.</p>
<p>So lets all stop trying to think outside the BOX that our
quantum priests have built for us and just come up with more
and more complex explanations within the BOX. Are we such
cowards?<br>
</p>
<p>Is that what you are proposing?</p>
<p>Why not try to complete the picture and integrate what we
know to be true by direct experience into our theories. Then
you will begin to see events not particles, cycles not
points, actions not states, are the a better way to
understand reality.<br>
</p>
<p>best wishes</p>
<p>wolf<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432t
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/28/2017 2:17 PM, Albrecht
Giese wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:73a5853b-6bd9-4f87-8aec-32949fe851f5@a-giese.de"
type="cite">Hi Andrew, <br>
<br>
where do you miss reciprocity at STR? <br>
<br>
Albrecht <br>
<br>
<br>
Am 27.05.2017 um 09:07 schrieb ANDREW WORSLEY: <br>
<blockquote type="cite">I have some problems with STR <br>
<br>
That physical laws should be the same for all observers is
OK. <br>
<br>
But that implies reciprocity which is not OK. <br>
<br>
<br>
Peoples' thoughts? <br>
<br>
<br>
======================================== <br>
Message Received: May 25 2017, 06:42 PM <br>
From: "Chip Akins" <br>
To: "'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'"
<br>
Cc: <br>
Subject: Re: [General] STR <br>
<br>
Hi Wolf <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I would like to add a comment to this discussion. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It is my opinion that physics happens by itself, whether
we think about it or not. And that an observer is not
required for the universe to go on doing what it does. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I also feel that our perception of what is going on is
governed and filtered by the laws which create the things
we call fields, particles, forces, and all the other, <br>
relatively abstract things we have named in our studies of
nature. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I also think there is a version of what we call relativity
which is without paradox, but that relativity is not SR or
GR, but rather a relativity which is based on matter <br>
being made of confined light speed energy in a fixed frame
of space, with space as a tensor medium and not empty. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The above comment is just my view or course, but I think
it makes sense. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Chip Akins <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: General [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Wolfgang Baer <br>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 12:13 PM <br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>
<br>
Subject: Re: [General] STR <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Albrecht: <br>
<br>
I'll send this to you and the nature of light separately.
then please check if it gets to you on both <br>
<br>
1) regarding your Thesis it wold be necessary to see
exactly where the Von Neuman cut takes place to evaluate
the experiment from my observer inclusive <br>
perspective. The problem is that so many "truths" are
simply consistent results inside quantum theory. There are
always two operations separating reality from <br>
our observational experience and since science is
operating under the assumption that quantum reality (i.e.
anything that cannot be seen directly such as atomic <br>
structure, electorons etc.) is reality. It is very likely
that the two operations are adjusted to to make the
quantum reality assumptions self consistent. <br>
<br>
2) The force between charge and mass is infinite in
current theory because if force and charge are treated as
separate degrees of freedom and are in fact pulled <br>
apart by external gravito-electric forces then in order to
keep them at the same point the current theory would
implicitly require an infinite force. relaxing this <br>
requirement then allows current theory to be an
approximation to one that does not require such an
infinite force. Much like classical physics is an
approximation <br>
of quantum physics in the limit h->0. Quantum theory is
an approximation to my Cognitive Action Theory when the
force between mass and charge does NOT <br>
approach infinity. <br>
<br>
3) SRT I am completely puzzled by your statements the Twin
Paradox gravitational explanation is in many text books.
Here is wikipedia <br>
<br>
" Starting with Paul Langevin in 1911, there have been
various explanations of this paradox. These explanations <br>
"can be grouped into those that focus on the effect of
different standards of simultaneity in different frames,
and those that designate the acceleration <br>
[experienced by the travelling twin] as the main
reason...".[5] Max von Laue <br>
argued in 1913 that since the traveling twin must be in
two separate inertial frames <br>
, one on the way out and another on the way back, this
frame switch is the reason for the aging difference, not
the <br>
acceleration per se.[6] Explanations put forth by Albert
Einstein <br>
and Max Born invoked gravitational time dilation <br>
to explain the aging as a direct effect of
acceleration.[7] <br>
" <br>
<br>
i'm simply saying the these explanations explicitly select
an experiment setup that eliminates the clock slow down
due to velocity with the clock speed up due to <br>
acceleration. The equivalence principle equates
acceleration and gravity in Einsteins theory. My thought
experiment simply has two twins in inter stellar space <br>
accelerating and decelerating in opposite directions
coming back to rest at the meeting point at the origin. If
everything is symmetric one explanation is that <br>
velocity ang gravity cancel and no effect exists at all.
But by allowing an arbitrarily long coast time the
relative velocity low down will always dominate and the
twin <br>
paradox is present. Each twin calculates the other's
clocks must slow down according to SRT and GRT, so when
theories reach a logical inconsistency they must <br>
be improved. <br>
<br>
What I believe is happening is that the general relativity
expression for Gamma *SQRT(m) = SQRT(m*c*c - m*v*v +
m*2*Xg) Now since m*c*c = m*G*Mu/ Ru = <br>
the gravitational potential energy of a mass inside the
mass shell of the universe Mu of radius Ru. We are living
inside the a black hole of radius Ru according to <br>
the Schwarzschield solution. Then the term in the brackets
becomes; <br>
<br>
m*c*c - m*v*v + m*2*X => .2 [ (1/2 *m*c*c + m*Xg) -
1/2*m*v*v ] => 2 * L ; where L is the Lagrangian -
(T-V) <br>
<br>
In other words the entire SRT and GRT theory calculates
half the change of energy transfer from electric to
gravitational energy. But it observes the change in <br>
electromagentic energy as a slow down in clock rate. As I
have often said on this issue the equations are correct it
is the world view that is wrong. The error <br>
started with Newton when he equated F=m*a. This confused a
Theoretical force with an Observational experience. It
happened because the observer was taken <br>
out of physics and Observational experiences (i.e. the
world in front of your nose) were taken to be reality
instead of the mental experiences they are. Quantum <br>
theory is the beginning of correcting this error but it
will take a while to find the right interpretation. We
must add the mind back into physics. <br>
<br>
best wishes <br>
<br>
Wolf <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dr. Wolfgang Baer <br>
Research Director <br>
Nascent Systems Inc. <br>
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432 <br>
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a>
<br>
<br>
On 5/24/2017 12:01 PM, Albrecht Giese wrote: <br>
<br>
Hi Wolf, <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 22.05.2017 um 06:11 schrieb Wolfgang Baer: <br>
<br>
I completely agree with Chandra EM waves are quantized
during interaction with matter and then we project the
quantized material state changes back into the <br>
waves as a mathematical convenience <br>
<br>
We have discussed this topic earlier here and I have
referred to my PhD experiment. In that experiment we have
used electrons of a well defined energy to <br>
convert them into photons. The photons were after a flight
of several meters in the air detected by pair building in
a thin layer of copper. The energy of the pair <br>
was measured, and the measurement showed the energy of the
original electron. So, how can we understand this result
if it is not the photon which carries <br>
exactly this energy and which is quantized with this
energy? <br>
<br>
to answer some of Albrecht's comments on my 5,15,17
comment; I'm introducing some new ideas in order to
include the mind in physical theory. Treated <br>
individually one can reject them because anything new can
be rejected when one assumes the old is correct. So have
patience. <br>
<br>
1) "That means a force between charge and mass?" yes it
means what it says. Mass and charge are assumed to be
properties of particles. Particles have been <br>
assumed to be points and so mass and charge are located at
points. I believe this is wrong. Mass and charge should be
given separate degrees of freedom and <br>
the force between them is not infinite. <br>
<br>
The force is indeed not infinite, on the contrary, there
cannot be a force at all. If we look at the forces of
charges, it is obvious (in the mind of physicists) that a
<br>
charge can only interact with a charge of the same type.
So the electrical charge and the charge of the strong
force will by common understanding not react in <br>
any way. And if now mass is understood as some type of a
charge (which is, however, not the understanding of
present physics) then there should not be any <br>
force between e.g. an electric charge and a mass. <br>
<br>
If we look deeper into what mass is by present
understanding, then charges may influence the dynamical
process which we call "inertia". But that is in that case
a <br>
complicated logical connection. <br>
<br>
2)"The question here is again: what is more fundamental,
action or force?" The rest of your comments are simply
addressing an incomplete presentation of my <br>
theory. However I consider dynamics or simply change to be
fundamental. Reality is action in a form. Action is the
material of change. Form is the state in which it <br>
is manifest. Action is fundamental , Energy is the rate of
action happening, force is the experience of all finite
particles in a non homogeneous action flow who all <br>
want to experience more action. I think it is best to
defer this discussion to either metaphysics or when I have
complete presentation ready. <br>
<br>
Yes, then we should better wait. - But up to now I still
follow this argument that action is something which the
human brain needs to structure the world so that it <br>
fits into our brains. Particles which react to each other
do not have this need. They react to a force, and the
force and also the reaction to it can be infinitesimal. <br>
An action is (by my understanding) something which happens
or does not happen. I do not see infinitesimal single
steps which each can be understood as an <br>
action. So, this is my argument that action is a typical
case of "human understanding". <br>
<br>
SRT: <br>
<br>
"First: this whole process has absolutely nothing to do
with gravity. Why do you connect it to gravity?" Because I
have seen the twin paradox explained by <br>
including gravity in text books. clocks slow down because
of velocity but speed up because of acceleration the two
cancel when two twins are accelerated with <br>
constant acceleration for the first quarter of the trip,
the ship turned around decelerated for the second quarter
and continued to be accelerated toward the start <br>
point, during the third quarter and then rocket reverses
for the third quarter and come to rest rest at the origin
where the second twin has been waiting at rest. <br>
Now both twins will agree on the amount of time passing.
The paradox is said to be resolved because Einstein's Srt
is expanded to GRT and gravity is introduced. <br>
<br>
Can you please give me a reference to a text book which
connects the twin paradox to gravity? I never heard about
such an idea; and the discussion about <br>
ageing refers to the time dilation in SRT. You can perform
this twin paradox in an environment where no gravitational
sources are around, and it would work as <br>
usually described. <br>
<br>
According to SRT clocks slow down because of velocity. The
degree of slow-down is related to the speed of the clocks
and to nothing else. Acceleration or <br>
deceleration have no influence to the behaviour of clock.
This statement you will find uniformly in all textbooks. <br>
<br>
Then you write: "... and then rocket reverses for the
third quarter and come to rest rest at the origin where
the second twin has been waiting at rest." Now I am <br>
confused. I have understood that both twins move and
change their motion at exactly the same times. How can it
then happen that on twin is at rest and expects <br>
the other one? <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
"And second: the whole process as you describe it is
completely symmetrical. Both twins make the same
experience with time and with there according ageing. <br>
Where the hell do you see a paradox?" The paradox is that
both twins see the other moving at a constant velocity for
an arbitrarily long period of time <br>
<br>
why for an arbitrarily long period of time? It is only for
the time until the other twin changes his speed. <br>
<br>
and each one would according to SRT calculate the other
twin has aged relative to himself. both cannot be right.
by making the acceleration period small and <br>
symmetric the coast period large i eliminate the gravity
explanation but retain an arbitrarily long constant
velocity. SO SRT HAS A PARADOX AND IT CANNOT BE <br>
RESOLVED IN GRT. <br>
<br>
Perhaps I understand now where you see the paradox. Assume
the following case which is sometimes discussed. There are
two observers, A and B, and both <br>
have clocks with them. We assume that both observers move
with respect to each other. Then observer A will find that
the clock of observer B runs more slowly. <br>
But as both observers are physically equivalent also
observer B will find that the clock of observer A runs
more slowly. <br>
<br>
This sounds like a paradox or even like a logical
conflict. But it is not. To see why not we have to have a
closer look on how clock speeds (or the time in different
<br>
frames) are compared. It is not as simple as it looks
like. <br>
<br>
If the observer A will compare his clock run with the one
of observer B, he will e.g. place two of his clocks, which
we will call clock 1 and clock 2 (and which he <br>
has of course synchronized) along the path of observer B.
Then he will compare the clock of observer B with his
clock 1 and then with clock 2 in the moment <br>
when the observer B passes these clocks. The result will
be that the clock of observer B have run more slowly. <br>
<br>
But how now the other way around? The observer B can of
course compare his clock with both clocks of observer A
when he passes these clocks. But now a <br>
difference: Both clocks of observer A have been
synchronized in the frame of A. But in the frame of B they
will not be synchronized (a fundamental fact in SRT). <br>
From the view of observer B the clock 1 of observer A
will be retarded with respect to the clock 2. So, the
observer B can reproduce the observation of observer <br>
A in the way that observer A sees the clock of B slowed
down. But observer B will use a different method to
determine the speed of the clocks of observer A. <br>
Observe B will also position two clocks along the path
which observer A follows in frame B and he will
synchronize these clocks in his frame B. And with his
clocks <br>
he will find that the clocks of A run slower compared to
his own ones. <br>
<br>
This different clock synchronization follows from the
time-related part of the Lorentz transformation: <br>
<br>
t = gamma*(t'-vx/c2) with gamma = sqrt(1/(1 - v2/c2)).
Regarding the example above v is the speed between the
frames of A and of B. <br>
<br>
Is this understandable? (I have presented it in Porto Novo
when I talked about the problem of de Broglie with SRT.)
If not clear, please ask further questions I <br>
and shall go into more details. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
do my Emails show up <br>
<br>
I CC'd you and you should get this directly and in <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>
<br>
<br>
Let me know if you get them <br>
<br>
I have received your mail once. But last time also Chandra
and Adrew have answered. So the general distribution seems
to work <br>
<br>
Albrecht <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Wolf <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dr. Wolfgang Baer <br>
Research Director <br>
Nascent Systems Inc. <br>
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432 <br>
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a>
<br>
<br>
On 5/20/2017 12:19 PM, Roychoudhuri, Chandra wrote: <br>
<br>
Hi Andrew W.: <br>
<br>
Yes, I basically agree with you that STR is not a theory
of physics. It is smart mathematics only. <br>
<br>
Whereas, photoelectric equation is physics, even though,
quantization is postulated wrongly on EM waves, rather
than on quantum mechanically bound <br>
electrons! <br>
<br>
Chandra. <br>
<br>
================================== <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message----- <br>
From: General [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
On Behalf Of ANDREW WORSLEY <br>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 2:24 AM <br>
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion ;
<br>
Wolfgang Baer <br>
Subject: Re: [General] HA: Gravity <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi all <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
STR is a complex subject - all observers are equal - but
then implies reciprocity, that's the bit that's flawed
actually <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
======================================== <br>
<br>
Message Received: May 18 2017, 08:34 PM <br>
<br>
From: "Albrecht Giese" <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
To: "Wolfgang Baer" , "Nature of Light and Particles -
General Discussion" <br>
<br>
Cc: <br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [General] HA: Gravity <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Wolf, <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
again comments in the text. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 15.05.2017 um 02:01 schrieb Wolfgang Baer: <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">No Kc is the spring constant of
the force holding charge and mass <br>
together <br>
</blockquote>
That means a force between charge and mass? To my
understanding mass and charge are completely different
categories as a wrote last time. Charge is a <br>
permanent property of some object, whereas mass is a
dynamical process which also changes when the object
changes its motion state (which at the end is : <br>
relativity). <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">In order to build a framework of a
physical theory that properly <br>
includes the observer as a measurement model building
and acting <br>
component I use a very simplified concept built on the
classic <br>
metaphysical ideas that mass,charge, space, time along
with the forces <br>
between them are fundamental. Here are some of the
differences between <br>
my cognitive action theory CAT and classic physics <br>
</blockquote>
Just a question at this point: to which set of
"metaphysical ideas" do you refer? If we refer to main
stream physics, at least mass is a different category. And
also <br>
time and space are most probably different categories from
the others, at least for some of the physical community. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">* Summary of Action Theory
additions to Classic Physical Concepts* <br>
The examples provided in this section are intended to
show how action <br>
theory is applied to well known and observable
situations that can be <br>
compared with analysis using classical physics concepts.
What CAT has <br>
added is summarized as follows: <br>
-Change involving transitions between states is where
physics is <br>
happening. <br>
-Change, visualized as stable action patterns,
propagates through <br>
material media. <br>
-The degrees of freedom of classical systems has been
doubled by <br>
separating mass and charge. <br>
-Internal material forces between mass and charge are
introduced as <br>
heuristic visualizations to augment understanding of the
interior of <br>
matter which is conventionally the domain of quantum
theory (see <br>
chapter 6) <br>
-Mach’s principle and the connection between the
inertial field is <br>
introduced in place of the observational pseudo forces
such as the <br>
centrifugal force and “m∙a” in Newton’s formulation.
(See Appendix on <br>
Mach’s Principle) <br>
-Time is defined as the name of the state of the system
adopted as a <br>
clock, and time intervals are measured as action
required to change a <br>
state separated by a constant state distance. <br>
Action theory is being developed as the physical
underpinnings of an <br>
event oriented world view and a description of reality
which includes <br>
both the subjective and objective aspect of reality
described by CAT. <br>
</blockquote>
The question here is again: what is more fundamental,
action or force? <br>
<br>
In the reductionist's world the fundamental processes are
very simple but go on in a huge number. So, it is a
tendency, or a good strategy of our brains to build <br>
categories. For instance, there are billions of trees on
our earth. No brain of a human being is able to register
and to remember all these trees. So, our brain build <br>
the category "tree". <br>
<br>
That is helpful. But the cells in the trees have no
logical connection to the category-building, they follow
fundamental rules. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
In an analogue way, there is a force between charges (else
not!). If objects move which have charges the forces will
cause that the motion of the objects is <br>
influenced, the path changes accordingly. That is
fundamental. A human brain can now build the category of
an "action" to describe, or better: to categories this <br>
process. This brain-related process is in my view a less
fundamental view to the world, even though a helpful one.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
But again: mass and charge are not the same category. It
is true that there would be no inertia if there would not
be charges in the world. <br>
<br>
But taken in this was, mass is a consequence of charges
(and a dynamical consequence). So one could say: a
consequence on a higher level. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
And for "time" I agree that this is a structural way of
humans to categorize motion. "Space" may be a structural
way to treat the effect of charges. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">*Twin Paradox:* <br>
You mentioned the twin paradox is explained by the
Lorenz <br>
transformation since t'=t/sqrt(1-v*v/c*c) which
describes time dilation <br>
How do you avoid the paradox in the following experiment
<br>
Two twins are accelerated with a small short pulse in
opposite directions. <br>
At some very long time they are both reversed with a
double pulse <br>
when they meet they are stopped by a short pulse. <br>
The experiment is completely symmetric. both twins
experience the same <br>
acceleration pulse so gravity clock effects are equal
and can be <br>
eliminated from a comparison but not eliminated is the
arbitrarily <br>
long period where they are traveling with a velocity
relative to each <br>
other. Since the time dilation formula only contains <br>
velocity squared the direction of relative travel does
not make a <br>
difference. If the theory is correct there is a paradox
and gravity <br>
cannot explain it. <br>
</blockquote>
First: this whole process has absolutely nothing to do
with gravity. Why <br>
<br>
do you connect it to gravity? <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
And second: the whole process as you describe it is
completely <br>
<br>
symmetrical. Both twins make the same experience with time
and with <br>
<br>
there according ageing. Where the hell do you see a
paradox? I cannot <br>
<br>
see a paradox and the whole thing is as simple as it can
be. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">*do my Emails show up in the
general discussion I keep only getting <br>
replies from people who send them directly and my
E-mails do not show <br>
up in the discussion forum, so I'm wondering?* <br>
</blockquote>
To test it, you may sent this mail again without my
address in the list; <br>
<br>
then I can tell you (if informed) if I got it. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Best, <br>
wolf <br>
</blockquote>
Best <br>
<br>
Albrecht <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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