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<p><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size="+1">Wolf,</font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size="+1">to
summarize: Einstein's book is not wrong, but if you use it in a
wrong way then the results are conflicting.<br>
</font></p>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size="+1">Am 05.06.2017
um 04:26 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:</font>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite"><br>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size="+1"></font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif" size="+1">On 6/4/2017 9:40 AM, Albrecht Giese wrote:<br>
Each twin has two choices</font><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">1.) <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">He
ignores physics. He travels forth and back and when
he is back ag<font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">ain, he meets t<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">win 2 and can compare the clocks
of both. They will indicate the same time. So he
will not see any problem.<br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">He does
not ignore physics but ignores SRT. Both twins do exactly the
same thing and physics tells them to expect to get the same
result. </font></font><br>
</blockquote>
<font size="+1"></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"> <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">2.) He
knows <strike>physics</strike> SRT and partic<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ularly
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">special
relativity. And, to be clo<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">se
to your case, he may define after his
start his frame of motion <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">as
</font>the <font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">reference frame. So in
this fram<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">e his clock will run
with normal speed. </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">His
frame of reference is his spaceship outfitted with real meter
sticks and real clocks. He looks outside and measures the
doppler shift from a predefined signal frequency and so each
one knows the other is moving away at velocity 'v' relative to
himself</font></font><br>
</blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Any rod
and any clock is according to Einstein related to one frame. If
one changes his frame, anything is new.</font></font>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Then,
when<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"> his retro rocket has
started, he will notic<font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">e the acceleration. He
knows that compared to his
previous state of motion he is now
movin<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">g towards t<font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">win 2 wi<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">th a speed
which you have c<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">alled v. </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">His
frame of reference is still his spaceship outfitted with real
meter sticks and real clocks. He looks outside and measures
the doppler shift from a predefined signal frequency and so
each one knows the other is moving away at velocity 'v'
relative to himself only now the velocity is toward each
other.<br>
</font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">If he
still understands his spaceship as his frame after the retro
rocket has started then he leaves the conditions for the
validity of SRT.</font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite"><font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"> </font></font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">And as he knows physics, he
will be aware of the fa<font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">ct <font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">that now
h<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">is own clock
will run differently than
before. </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">No he
reads a book on special relativity written by Einstein that
tells him the other twins clock should run slow<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"> than his own.</font></font></font><br>
</blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">f he rea<font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif">ds and understands special
relativity followin<font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">g Einstein then he knows that now <i>also his own
clock </i>runs slower.</font></font></font></font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">S<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">o if he w<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">ants to
understand what is going
on and if he still takes
his original state of
motio<font face="Times
New Roman, Times,
serif">n a<font
face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">s
<font face="Times
New Roman, Times,
serif">his
reference frame,
he has to<font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif"> <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">realize
that his clock
i<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">s</font>
now running <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">slower</font><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">.
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Why
would he take his original state of motion as his reference
frame? That would be some imaginaty space ship still moving
away at velocity "v". His reference frame is his space ship<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">, something may have
effected its clocks and rods but his frame is his frame. </font>You
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">are</font> mak<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ing</font> up a story
about his own clocks that are obviously running exactly the
way they always as far as his observations are concerned in
order to make the theory he read in the SRT book m<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ore valid than what he
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">actually</font>
sees and can measure. </font></font></font><br>
</blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">The
Lorentz transformation which we are talking about <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">defines the
transformation from one (inertial) frame to another one. If
twin 1 takes <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">his
spaceship as his frame <i>a</i><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><i>fter </i>the acceleration then any facts
from <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">the<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"> time <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">before </font></font></font>are
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">no longer <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">of relevance. </font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">-
On the other
hand, if he
wants to under<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">stand
the situation
of <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">twin
2 he has to
realize that
the speed of t<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">w<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">in
2, <b>takin</b><b><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">g
p<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">lace
with v in
relation to
his own
original
frame,</font></font></b><b>
</b><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><b>causes
a slow down of
the clock </b><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><b>of
t</b><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><b>win
2</b>. <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">But
</font>then,
after t<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">win
2 has <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">fired
<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">his
retro rocket,
tw<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">in
<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">2
will have
speed = 0 with
respect to the
original frame
of <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">twin<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">
1. So the
clock of twin
2 will now <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">run
in the normal
way. </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Compared
with an imaginary frame<font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">. We and <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Einstein claimed to</font>
deals with real rods and clocks</font></font></font></font><br>
</blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Any rod
and any clock is according to Einstein related to a frame and
makes no sense</font></font><font size="+1"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"> without such reference</font></font><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">. If one
changes his frame, anything is new. The word "real" has a
limited meaning in that case. </font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
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face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
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face="Times New
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face="Times New
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serif"><font
face="Times New
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serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
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Times, serif"><font
face="Times
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Times, serif"><font
face="Times
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face="Times
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face="Times
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Times, serif"><font
face="Times
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Times, serif">
- If you n<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">ow
add the
different
phases of both
clocks, i<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">.e.
the phases of
normal run<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">
and the ph<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">ases
of slow down,
you will see
that the
result is the
same <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">for
both <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">twins.
And this is w<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">hat
I have expl<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">ain<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">ed
quantitatively
i<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">n
my last mail.<br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">All one
has to do is to add to the protocol that each twin should take
a faximily of their own clocks and compare them later by your
own analysis (<b> see bold face above</b>) each twin would <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">believe</font> his own
Fax would run at the normal rate but the other would slow
down.<br>
</font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Here you
misunderstand how dilation works. I have tried to show you
earlier that clock comparison is not so simple. If two observers
move with respect to each other, then in a naive view the
observer holding clock 1 would say that clock 2 runs slower and
at the same time the observer holding clock 2 would say that
clock 1 runs slower. This is as a fact logically not possible. I
have explained in the other mail how this comparison works
correctly so that the logical conflict does not occur. Please
look at that mail again and we can continue our discussion on
that basis. </font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite"><font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif">In other words the experiment
gives the answer logic would <font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">expect</font>, but the story in Einstain's
book is wrong. It is not that <font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">mooving clocks do not slow down but
the theory <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">explaining
it is different and must include the physics of the
observer<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">,
which I'll describe next once we get this point <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">straightened</font>
out.</font></font></font></font></font><br>
</font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Einstein
is not wrong but you are using the Lorentz transformation in an
incorrect way. Please read the other mail again and we can
discuss on that basis. </font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite"><font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"> </font></font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
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face="Times New Roman, Times,
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face="Times New Roman, Times,
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face="Times New Roman,
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<br>
<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">I
mus<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">t
say that I
have problems
to understand
where you <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">have
<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">a
</font>difficult<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">y
to see this.</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<br>
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