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<p>Wolf:<br>
</p>
Am 06.06.2017 um 08:14 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2a3b09b8-e9a5-e4b8-aa7a-4358c88ad111@nascentinc.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<p>Albrecht:</p>
<p>First there have been so many E-mails I do not know which one
you want me to look at to understand your explanation. So please
send me a copy of it again.</p>
</blockquote>
Sorry but I am not at home now and do not have this mail at hand.
But you will find it by its contents:<br>
<br>
My mail was about this apparent conflict if two moving observes say
that the clock of the other one is slowed down compared to his own
one. Which is not a contradiction if you look at the time related
Lorentz transformation:<br>
t' = gamma*(t-vx/c2) <br>
where you have to insert correct values for v and x. You will find
it in a mail of last week.<br>
This understanding is essential for any discussion of dilation.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2a3b09b8-e9a5-e4b8-aa7a-4358c88ad111@nascentinc.com">
<p>Of course if there is some special to interpret Einstein's
intent that is not in Einstein's book then perhaps you are
right , <br>
</p>
</blockquote>
Which book of Einstein do you mean? As above, this is not a special
interpretation of Einstein's intent but the correct use of the
Lorentz transformation.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2a3b09b8-e9a5-e4b8-aa7a-4358c88ad111@nascentinc.com">
<p> </p>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">if you
are telling me that the only valid <font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">inertial frame is the frame of a third
person god like observer who is stationary before the tw<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ins fire their
rockets and in that frame both of the twins doing exactly
the same thing would have exactly the same clock rates and
therefore they will have the elapsed time when they meet<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">.<br>
</font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">No, you
can take any frame you want. But for the whole process where you
use the Lorentz transformation you have to refer to the same frame.</font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2a3b09b8-e9a5-e4b8-aa7a-4358c88ad111@nascentinc.com"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"> <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">And
further if you are telling me that <font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif">both twins must <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">realize that</font>
their own clock <font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">is slowing down</font> and the other twin's
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">clock is
also slowing down because both <font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif">tw</font>ins must do
their calcu<font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">lations in this special initial god like
3d person frame so both agree<br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">No, it is
not the condition that there is a god like person, but one has
to stay with one frame whichever it is.</font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2a3b09b8-e9a5-e4b8-aa7a-4358c88ad111@nascentinc.com"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">And
further you are telling me that <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">all the
talk about there not being a special <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">inertial</font>
frame, and everything is relative </font></font></font><br>
</font>and neither twin </font> <font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif">believ<font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif">es he is </font></font>in
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">his </font>
o<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">w</font>n
inertial frame because <font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">neither feels <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">he is
moving is a misinterpretation of <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">SRT<br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">whether
someone <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">fee<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ls that he is movin<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">g or not <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">depends also on <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">his </font>ch<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">oice of the
reference frame.</font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2a3b09b8-e9a5-e4b8-aa7a-4358c88ad111@nascentinc.com"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"> <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">and
further that URL <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox</a><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2a3b09b8-e9a5-e4b8-aa7a-4358c88ad111@nascentinc.com"><br>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">"Starting
with <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Langevin"
title="Paul Langevin"
moz-do-not-send="true">Paul Langevin</a>
in 1911, there have been various
explanations of this paradox. These
explanations "can be grouped into those
that focus on the effect of different
standards of simultaneity in different
frames, and those that designate the
acceleration [experienced by the
travelling twin] as the main reason...".<sup
id="cite_ref-Debs_Redhead_5-0"
class="reference"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox#cite_note-Debs_Redhead-5"
moz-do-not-send="true">[5]</a></sup> <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_von_Laue" title="Max von Laue"
moz-do-not-send="true">Max von Laue</a>
argued in 1913 that since the traveling
twin must be in two separate <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_frames"
class="mw-redirect" title="Inertial
frames" moz-do-not-send="true">inertial
frames</a>, one on the way out and
another on the way back, this frame switch
is the reason for the aging difference,
not the acceleration <i>per se</i>.<sup
id="cite_ref-6" class="reference"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox#cite_note-6"
moz-do-not-send="true">[6]</a></sup>
Explanations put forth by <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein"
title="Albert Einstein"
moz-do-not-send="true">Albert Einstein</a>
and <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Born"
title="Max Born" moz-do-not-send="true">Max
Born</a> invoked <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation"
title="Gravitational time dilation"
moz-do-not-send="true">gravitational
time dilation</a> to explain the aging
as a direct effect of acceleration.<sup
id="cite_ref-Jammer_7-0"
class="reference"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox#cite_note-Jammer-7"
moz-do-not-send="true">[7]</a></sup>
General relativity is not necessary to
explain the twin paradox; special
relativity alone can explain the
phenomenon.<sup id="cite_ref-8"
class="reference"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox#cite_note-8"
moz-do-not-send="true">[8]</a></sup><sup
id="cite_ref-9" class="reference"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox#cite_note-9"
moz-do-not-send="true">[9]</a></sup>.<sup
id="cite_ref-10" class="reference"><a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox#cite_note-10"
moz-do-not-send="true">[10]"</a><br>
</sup></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<sup><font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Pau<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">l Langevin and Max von
Laue are both correct with their explanation a<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">s I alre<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ady wrote in the
other mail. </font></font></font></font></font></sup><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2a3b09b8-e9a5-e4b8-aa7a-4358c88ad111@nascentinc.com"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><sup
id="cite_ref-10" class="reference"> <br>
<font size="+2" face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">Einstein and Born
explanation<font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"> i</font>s bull
shit because in fact there is a <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">preferred</font>
inertial frame i.e the frame in which
<font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">both twins were <font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">initially</font> at rest </font><br>
</font></sup></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font size="+2" face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font size="+1"
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Al<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">bert
Einstein and Max <font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif">Born are
accor<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">ding to Wikipedia
<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">cited by other
books, but no cont<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">ents are
given. So, what shall I say<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">?<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"> I know
about Einstein that he
has<font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">,
when he <font
face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">was
asked a<font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif">bout the <font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif">t<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">win
paradox, </font></font></font></font></font>refer<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">red to
acceleration i<font
face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">n</font>
<font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">so
far that in an<font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif">y <font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif">case <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">of
acceleration
the original <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">frames
<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">are
left and so
the Lorentz
trans<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">formation
is no longer <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">applicable.
I have the
facsimile of a
letter which
Einstein<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">
once wrote to
a former
member of our
pre-Vigier
group<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">
(i.e. PIRT) s<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">aying
just this. <br>
<br>
<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">I
<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">do
not know and
have never
heard that
Einstein refer<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">red
the twin
paradox to gra<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">vity.
And to <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">refer<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">
here </font>to
gravitational
time dilation
is <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">so
far from any
logic that I
cannot imagine
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font size="+2" face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font size="+1"
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">that
Einstein has
mention<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">ed</font>
<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">something
like that at
any t<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">ime</font>.
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2a3b09b8-e9a5-e4b8-aa7a-4358c88ad111@nascentinc.com"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><sup
id="cite_ref-10" class="reference"><font
size="+2" face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">Then I agree with you.<br>
<br>
<font size="+1" face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">But be
careful what you wish for because
this <font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">leads to</font> my
CAT theory<font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"> that all
objects are created in the
obserer<font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">'s space
and the observer always
provides the fundamental
background in which both
Einsteins theory and Lorenz
theory and for that matter
maxwell's equations are valid.
I would love to have you agree
with <font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">my</font>
object<font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">-</font>subject
integrated physics, which I am
developing. Look at my Vigier
10 paper to see I argued that
<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">Einsteins</font>
<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">imagination</font>
was he special background
space in which his thought
experiment <font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif">occurred<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">.</font></font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></sup></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<sup><font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I am
afraid that you will o<font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">verload or over-interpret Einstein's theory if using
it for <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">any
observer <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">dependent
</font>theor<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">i<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">es. Einstein
himself believed that <font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">there is an objective <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">reali<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ty but that
every i<font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">nertia<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">l frame <font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">is an own wo<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">rld
in some sen<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">se. Relativity exists
according to Einstein completely
independent of the exist<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ence
of thinking humans.</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></sup><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2a3b09b8-e9a5-e4b8-aa7a-4358c88ad111@nascentinc.com"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><sup
id="cite_ref-10" class="reference"><font
size="+2" face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font size="+1"
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">PS: your
explanation is like Max von
Laue's only he <font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">did not use
a symmetric experiment
protocol and therefore
requires four reference
frame switches, which lead<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"> me to ask
how is the frame change
implemented if not
through the <font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">gravitational</font>
time dilation
explanation put forward
by <font face="Times
New Roman, Times,
serif">E</font>instein
and Born. <br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></sup></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<sup><font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Wh<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">y so complicated? As
soo<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">n as some ob<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ject<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"> <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">changes its
speed it leaves its original frame. Th<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">at is <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">simpl<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">y</font>
the d<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">e<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">finition
of a <font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">linear motion, nothing
philosophical beyond that.<br>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">And
the <font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">symmetric</font>
version of the <font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">twin para<font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">do<font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">x is your
proposal, so neither Max von <font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">Lau<font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif">e
nor somebody else will have
used it. So only one change
of the frame, not <font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">two or more
changes.</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></sup>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2a3b09b8-e9a5-e4b8-aa7a-4358c88ad111@nascentinc.com"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><br>
</font></font><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"> we are getting clos<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">er soon
I'll show you that the speed with which your
particles move is the speed of Now In CAT not
the speed of light, which is always changing
and not at all constant.</font></font></font></font></font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">For
Einstein the speed of light is constant everywhere. I personally
do no<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">t agree to this
because I follow the Lorentzian relativity, which I<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"> do because the
Lorentzian S<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">RT is
based on physics whereas Einstein's relativity i<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">s based on abstract
p<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">rinciples.
In g<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">eneral
I do not like pri<font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">n<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ciples
as <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">final
solutions of open questions.<br>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">In
a <font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">genera<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">l view it is a b<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">i<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">g
surpri<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">se for <font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">me that such a s<font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">imple physical
phenomenon like SRT can be
made <font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">or seen
so compl<font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif">icated
as it appears in this <font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">discu<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">ssion.</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2a3b09b8-e9a5-e4b8-aa7a-4358c88ad111@nascentinc.com"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"> </font></font></font></font></font>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/5/2017 7:15 AM, Albrecht Giese
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:37975513-f5d2-b928-6e2b-027ea7a134ed@a-giese.de">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<p><font size="+1" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Wolf,</font></p>
<p><font size="+1" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">to
summarize: Einstein's book is not wrong, but if you use it
in a wrong way then the results are conflicting.<br>
</font></p>
<font size="+1" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Am
05.06.2017 um 04:26 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:</font>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite"><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><font size="+1" face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">On 6/4/2017 9:40 AM, Albrecht Giese
wrote:<br>
Each twin has two choices</font><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">1.) <font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">He ignores physics. He
travels forth and back and when he is back ag<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ain, he
meets t<font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">win 2 and can compare the clocks of
both. They will indicate the same time. So
he will not see any problem.<br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">He
does not ignore physics but ignores SRT. Both twins do
exactly the same thing and physics tells them to expect to
get the same result. </font></font><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"> <font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">2.) He knows <strike>physics</strike>
SRT and partic<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">ularly <font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif">special
relativity. And, to be clo<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">se
to your case, he may define after
his start his frame of motion <font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">as </font>the <font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">reference frame. So in this
fram<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">e his clock will
run with normal speed. </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">His
frame of reference is his spaceship outfitted with real
meter sticks and real clocks. He looks outside and
measures the doppler shift from a predefined signal
frequency and so each one knows the other is moving away
at velocity 'v' relative to himself</font></font><br>
</blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Any
rod and any clock is according to Einstein related to one
frame. If one changes his frame, anything is new.</font></font>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">Then, when<font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"> his
retro rocket has started, he
will notic<font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">e the
acceleration. He knows that
compared to his previous state
of motion he is now movin<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">g towards t<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">win 2 wi<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">th a speed
which you have c<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">alled v.
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">His
frame of reference is still his spaceship outfitted with
real meter sticks and real clocks. He looks outside and
measures the doppler shift from a predefined signal
frequency and so each one knows the other is moving away
at velocity 'v' relative to himself only now the velocity
is toward each other.<br>
</font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">If he
still understands his spaceship as his frame after the retro
rocket has started then he leaves the conditions for the
validity of SRT.</font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite"><font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"> </font></font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">And as he knows
physics, he will be aware of
the fa<font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">ct <font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">that now h<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">is own
clock will run
differently than before.
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">No
he reads a book on special relativity written by Einstein
that tells him the other twins clock should run slow<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"> than his own.</font></font></font><br>
</blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">f he rea<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ds and understands
special relativity followin<font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">g Einstein then he knows that now <i>also
his own clock </i>runs slower.</font></font></font></font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">S<font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif">o if he
w<font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">ants
to understand what
is going on and if
he still takes his
original state of
motio<font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif">n a<font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif">s <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">his
reference
frame, he has
to<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">
<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">realize
that his clock
i<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">s</font>
now running <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">slower</font><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">.
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Why
would he take his original state of motion as his
reference frame? That would be some imaginaty space ship
still moving away at velocity "v". His reference frame is
his space ship<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">,
something may have effected its clocks and rods but his
frame is his frame. </font>You <font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">are</font> mak<font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">ing</font> up a story about his own
clocks that are obviously running exactly the way they
always as far as his observations are concerned in order
to make the theory he read in the SRT book m<font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">ore valid than what
he <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">actually</font>
sees and can measure. </font></font></font><br>
</blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">The
Lorentz transformation which we are talking about <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">defines the
transformation from one (inertial) frame to another one.
If twin 1 takes <font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">his spaceship as his frame <i>a</i><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><i>fter </i>the
acceleration then any facts from <font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif">the<font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"> time <font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif">before </font></font></font>are
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">no longer <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">of relevance.
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">-
On the other
hand, if he
wants to under<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">stand
the situation
of <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">twin
2 he has to
realize that
the speed of t<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">w<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">in
2, <b>takin</b><b><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">g
p<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">lace
with v in
relation to
his own
original
frame,</font></font></b><b>
</b><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><b>causes
a slow down of
the clock </b><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><b>of
t</b><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><b>win
2</b>. <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">But
</font>then,
after t<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">win
2 has <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">fired
<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">his
retro rocket,
tw<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">in
<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">2
will have
speed = 0 with
respect to the
original frame
of <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">twin<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">
1. So the
clock of twin
2 will now <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">run
in the normal
way. </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Compared
with an imaginary frame<font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">. We and <font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Einstein
claimed to</font> deals with real rods and clocks</font></font></font></font><br>
</blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Any
rod and any clock is according to Einstein related to a
frame and makes no sense</font></font><font size="+1"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"> without such reference</font></font><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">. If one
changes his frame, anything is new. The word "real" has a
limited meaning in that case. </font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">
- If you n<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">ow
add the
different
phases of both
clocks, i<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">.e.
the phases of
normal run<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">
and the ph<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">ases
of slow down,
you will see
that the
result is the
same <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">for
both <font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">twins.
And this is w<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">hat
I have expl<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">ain<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">ed
quantitatively
i<font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif">n
my last mail.<br>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">All
one has to do is to add to the protocol that each twin
should take a faximily of their own clocks and compare
them later by your own analysis (<b> see bold face above</b>)
each twin would <font face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif">believe</font> his own Fax would run at the
normal rate but the other would slow down.<br>
</font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Here
you misunderstand how dilation works. I have tried to show
you earlier that clock comparison is not so simple. If two
observers move with respect to each other, then in a naive
view the observer holding clock 1 would say that clock 2
runs slower and at the same time the observer holding clock
2 would say that clock 1 runs slower. This is as a fact
logically not possible. I have explained in the other mail
how this comparison works correctly so that the logical
conflict does not occur. Please look at that mail again and
we can continue our discussion on that basis. </font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite"><font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">In other words
the experiment gives the answer logic would <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">expect</font>,
but the story in Einstain's book is wrong. It is not
that <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">mooving
clocks do not slow down but the theory <font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">explaining it
is different and must include the physics of the
observer<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">,
which I'll describe next once we get this point
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">straightened</font>
out.</font></font></font></font></font><br>
</font></font></blockquote>
<font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Einstein
is not wrong but you are using the Lorentz transformation in
an incorrect way. Please read the other mail again and we
can discuss on that basis. </font></font><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:a607e9a1-3b7f-6e2e-f0d0-05a2989f878e@nascentinc.com"
type="cite"><font size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"> </font></font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:910d6201-cd55-1d61-55cb-4906b9d653c0@a-giese.de"><font
size="+1"><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font face="Times
New Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><font face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times, serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif"><font
face="Times New
Roman, Times,
serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
Times, serif"><font
face="Times
New Roman,
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face="Times
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
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