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    <p>I agree with Kracklauer <br>
    </p>
    <p>And of course you can always say "Each of the two can calculate
      what the other sees (if they know relativity)" This is the
      argument that has been presented in this discussion and it is a
      fake argument because as Kraklauer indicates it is introducing not
      the relativity that Einstain proposed but another version, 
      sometimes in the same text.</p>
    <p>No what einstein proposed as SR is that if twin one remains
      stationary and twing two make a round trip then when they get back
      together the traveling twins clock will slow down. And I believe
      the correct answer to this predition is that SRT's twin paradox is
      real, that it shows a real flaw in SRT, and for that reason
      EInstein was forced to develop general relativity and introduce
      gravity and inertia <br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/22/2017 11:45 PM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-4f8181b4-d820-4137-bcf5-3d435a1b92d0-1503470742376@3c-app-webde-bap56">
      <div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
        <div>The real problem, John, is that textbooks have two
          explanations; which they pull out often within the same page!
            In one the time or space alterations are actually
          ontological, in the other just apparitions or artifacts of
          perception as realized using the E&M interaction.
           Something is misunderstood or wrong.   
          <div> 
            <div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding:
              10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5;
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              -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
              <div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Mittwoch,
                23. August 2017 um 03:48 Uhr<br>
                <b>Von:</b> "John Williamson"
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk"><John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk></a><br>
                <b>An:</b> "Nature of Light and Particles - General
                Discussion"
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a>,
                "'Viv Robinson'" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:viv@universephysics.com"><viv@universephysics.com></a><br>
                <b>Cc:</b> "'Darren Eggenschwiler'"
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:darren@makemeafilm.com"><darren@makemeafilm.com></a>, "'Innes Morrison'"
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:innes.morrison@cocoon.life"><innes.morrison@cocoon.life></a>, "'Mark, Martin van
                der'" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com"><martin.van.der.mark@philips.com></a><br>
                <b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] STR twin Paradox</div>
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                <div>
                  <div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
                    rgb(0,0,0);font-size: 10.0pt;">Dear Chip and
                    everyone.<br>
                    <br>
                    This is very old problem. Martin, Viv and I have all
                    had a go at explaining this over the last years, but
                    all we are doing is repeating stuff which you should
                    be reading in the textbooks. If you analyse special
                    relativity properly there is no paradox here. There
                    never was and there never will be. The first time I
                    met this was in third year at University. I have had
                    exam questions on it (though do not know if I got
                    the answer right!).<br>
                    <br>
                    Where you are making your mistakes is right in your
                    first premises. You say "<span><font size="3"
                        face="Times New Roman,serif"><span
                          style="font-size: 12.0pt;"><font color="black">For
                            the sake of this experiment, let us imagine
                            that we have a means of synchronizing their
                            clocks regardless of their separation. Or at
                            least to start recording data at the same
                            time, like when each reaches a predetermined
                            distance from the other.</font></span></font></span>"
                    At this point you are already lost. You have assumed
                    there is such a thing as a "place" and that one can
                    define a "time". You need to understand that, in
                    relativity, one mans space is (partly) another mans
                    time. Each of the two can calculate what the other
                    sees (if they know relativity), and conclude for
                    them the space is at another time and vice versa. If
                    you start from a point where you assume there both
                    exists an absolute space with an everywhere defined
                    "time" and the laws of relativity hold, then you
                    will come to conclusions which give a paradox,
                    indeed. This is not a problem for relativity, which
                    explains perfectly what is observed (and does not
                    have an absolute space or time), but a problem
                    rather for your initial assumptions, or your way of
                    thinking.<br>
                    <br>
                    Regards, John.<br>
                    <br>
                     
                    <div style="font-family: Times New Roman;color:
                      rgb(0,0,0);font-size: 16.0px;">
                      <hr>
                      <div id="divRpF271226" style="direction: ltr;"><font
                          size="2" face="Tahoma" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
                          General
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                          on behalf of Chip Akins [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com">chipakins@gmail.com</a>]<br>
                          <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 22, 2017 8:40 PM<br>
                          <b>To:</b> 'Viv Robinson'; 'Nature of Light
                          and Particles - General Discussion'<br>
                          <b>Cc:</b> 'Darren Eggenschwiler'; 'Innes
                          Morrison'; 'Mark, Martin van der'<br>
                          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] STR twin Paradox</font><br>
                         </div>
                      <div> </div>
                      <div>
                        <div class="WordSection1">
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">Hi Vivian</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;"> </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">I would like to return to a
                              discussion briefly which was ensuing a
                              couple of months ago.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;"> </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">Thank you for the careful
                              explanation offered in the email below.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;"> </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">However the point I was attempting
                              to make a couple of months ago, deals only
                              with the concept that all motion is
                              relative in SRT. </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;"> </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">So let us set up an experiment
                              which excludes all effects of GRT,
                              acceleration, gravity etc. and only
                              evaluates this notion of SRT that all
                              motion is relative.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;"> </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">We have two identical clocks,
                              moving relative to each other.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">For the sake of this experiment,
                              let us imagine that we have a means of
                              synchronizing their clocks regardless of
                              their separation. Or at least to start
                              recording data at the same time, like when
                              each reaches a predetermined distance from
                              the other. (All Doppler effects accounted
                              for.)</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">An observer with clock A thinks
                              clock B is moving.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">An observer with clock B thinks
                              clock A is moving.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">After the “relative” motion has
                              occurred for some time, the two clocks
                              pass by in very close proximity to each
                              other and exchange their data.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;"> </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">The observer with clock A assumes
                              the reading from Clock B will indicate
                              that time has passed more slowly for B
                              than for A.  The observer with clock B
                              assumes the reading from Clock A will
                              indicate that time has passed more slowly
                              for A than for B. Both cannot be correct.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;"> </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">Clearly because of this, there IS
                              A PARADOX, and that paradox is undeniably
                              embedded in the notion that all motion is
                              relative. Bringing in arguments from other
                              theories, and proclaiming that there is no
                              paradox <i>does not dismiss this logical
                                problem inherent in SRT’s notion that
                                all motion is relative</i>.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;"> </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">If one clock is more stationary
                              with regards to the CMB it is likely that
                              is the one which will be more correct in
                              their prediction of the clocks readings.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">They cannot both be correct. </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">If they cannot both be correct,
                              then all motion is NOT relative, but time
                              is slowed for objects moving relative to
                              space itself.</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:
                                black;"> </span></b></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;">Chip</span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:
                              black;"> </span></p>
                          <div>
                            <div style="border: none;border-top: solid
                              rgb(225,225,225) 1.0pt;padding: 3.0pt
                              0.0in 0.0in 0.0in;">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                                    style="font-size:
                                    11.0pt;font-family: Calibri ,
                                    sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                  style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family:
                                  Calibri , sans-serif;"> Viv Robinson
                                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:viv@universephysics.com">mailto:viv@universephysics.com</a>]<br>
                                  <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 14, 2017
                                  10:44 PM<br>
                                  <b>To:</b> Chip Akins
                                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><chipakins@gmail.com></a>; Nature of
                                  Light and Particles - General
                                  Discussion
                                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a><br>
                                  <b>Cc:</b> 'Darren Eggenschwiler'
                                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:darren@makemeafilm.com"><darren@makemeafilm.com></a>; 'Innes
                                  Morrison'
                                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:innes.morrison@cocoon.life"><innes.morrison@cocoon.life></a>;
                                  'Mark, Martin van der'
                                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com"><martin.van.der.mark@philips.com></a><br>
                                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] STR twin
                                  Paradox</span></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">Hi All,</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">The best way to sort out a
                                problem is to understand the physics
                                behind a situation and then use
                                mathematics to calculate the magnitude
                                of the physical effect attributed to it.
                                Lets look at the so called "twin
                                paradox".</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">Two observers O1 and O2 are
                                next to and at rest with each other.
                                Both have accurate atomic or whatever
                                clocks. O2 is accelerated to speed v,
                                travels for time t at v, is decelerated
                                to rest wrt to O1, accelerated to v
                                towards O1, again travels for a time and
                                finally is decelerated to rest next to
                                O1. They compare clocks. O2’s clock has
                                slowed down wrt O1. Yet O2 has observed
                                O1 traveling at v. So why doesn’t O1’s
                                clock slow down wrt to O2?</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">The answer is the
                                acceleration. To accelerate O2, a force
                                is applied to it. The combination of
                                force and distance adds energy to O2
                                that is not added to O1. That energy is
                                added to O2 in terms of kinetic energy
                                or momentum change. No matter how small
                                is the energy that is added, it is split
                                between mass and velocity and causes a
                                time dilation. They are the special
                                relativity theory (SRT) corrections.
                                That is something that O2 experiences
                                and O1 does not experience.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">The fundamental difference
                                that O2’s acceleration makes is that
                                its mass increases as well as its
                                velocity. Its time wrt O1  decreases. So
                                while O2 may see O1 accelerating away,
                                O1 is not the one experiencing the
                                acceleration. Therefore O1 is not the
                                observer whose mass is increasing and
                                whose time is dilating. That is the
                                physical reason why there is no "twin
                                paradox". </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">Time dilation due to
                                acceleration and deceleration
                                (calculable from gravity equivalence)
                                appears to be cumulative. Acceleration
                                effects may make a difference if O2 is
                                rapidly accelerated to v and then
                                immediately rapidly decelerated to rest
                                wrt O1, followed by a rapid acceleration
                                to v and an immediate deceleration to
                                rest next to O1. O2 will show SRT time
                                dilation effect equal to the integrated
                                effect of its relativistic velocity wrt
                                O1. Those interested could calculate the
                                acceleration effect from gravity
                                equivalence and see how they compare.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">Apart from that the time
                                delay O2 experiences is because of the
                                velocity multiplied by time effect. When
                                the time traveled is much longer than
                                the acceleration time, the time delay
                                experienced by O2 will, for all
                                practical purposes, be due to the SRT
                                correction. </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">The above has described the
                                physics of the so called “twin paradox”.
                                There is no paradox. O2’s time slows
                                relative to O1 because O2 is the one
                                that has been accelerated. Einstein was
                                correct on both situations, the
                                relativistic time correction and that
                                they are only experienced by the
                                accelerated observer. </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">Of course you are free to
                                disagree with the above. However if you
                                feel compelled to point out that it is
                                wrong, it is best done by forwarding the
                                physics that makes it wrong and then
                                present the mathematics required to show
                                the magnitude of the physical effect.
                                Then show how it agrees with
                                experimental observation. In doing that
                                remember that experimentalist using
                                accurate atomic clocks have many times
                                verified the SRT time corrections. </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div id="bloop_customfont">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">There are two ways by which
                                the SRT corrections can be applied. One
                                is that there is an absolute zero
                                reference somewhere in space and all
                                corrections are applied from it. The
                                other is that the SRT corrections are a
                                property of any particle moving wrt
                                another. I have previously published
                                some calculations that suggest that the
                                rotating or toroidal photon model for
                                the structure of matter is responsible
                                for the SRT corrections of matter. With
                                all sub atomic particles, proton,
                                neutron electron and neutrino having a
                                rotating or toroidal photon structure,
                                the SRT corrections are automatically
                                inbuilt into every particle. As such I
                                am happy that Einstein’s SRT corrections
                                will always apply. </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">Remember that all linear
                                motions are relative to the observer.
                                However accelerations and circular
                                motions are absolute. O1 and O2 may
                                start out at 0.5 c wrt O3. O2 may be
                                decelerated to rest wrt O3, remain at
                                rest wrt O3 and then accelerated back to
                                0.5c to return to rest next to O1. O1
                                will still see O2’s clock as having lost
                                time. O3 will see an entirely different
                                situation. But remember O3 can only see
                                what is happening to O1 and O2 by using
                                photons. O3’s time dilation observations
                                of O1 and O2 must include the SRT
                                corrections as well as Doppler effect
                                and distance changes. Complex but
                                calculable to those interested.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">Chip, regarding your
                                analogy of A and B. At one stage in
                                their life they were at the same place
                                at the same time, even if it was only at
                                birth. To find out which will be the
                                younger you need to establish their
                                background. If A remained at rest and B
                                was accelerated away from A, B will be
                                the younger when they both meet up
                                again. If they both travelled away with
                                equal accelerations, velocities and time
                                they will both appear the same age. Both
                                would be younger than a person born at
                                the same place at the same time and
                                remained at that place when they all met
                                up again. </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">I am quite happy to accept
                                that all linear motion is relative. It
                                agrees with SRT and experiment. I am
                                also satisfied that the rotating or
                                toroidal photon model for an electron
                                (and other particles) gives a physical
                                description that matches both SRT and
                                observation. </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">Cheers,</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">Vivian Robinson</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                            <p class="airmailon"><span style="font-size:
                                10.0pt;font-family: Helvetica ,
                                sans-serif;">On 15 June 2017 at 12:43:26
                                AM, Chip Akins (<a
                                  href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
                                  onclick="parent.window.location.href='chipakins@gmail.com';
                                  return false;" target="_blank"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true">chipakins@gmail.com</a>)
                                wrote:</span></p>
                            <blockquote style="margin-top:
                              5.0pt;margin-bottom: 5.0pt;">
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">Hi John</p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">Yes.  When I
                                      used the large circle example, I
                                      was afraid that someone would
                                      divert the conversation from
                                      Special Relativity.  I suppose I
                                      deserve that.</p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">Back to Special
                                      Relativity.</p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">One Twin (Twin
                                      B) is moving at a constant highly
                                      relativistic velocity toward Twin
                                      A. Twin B thinks Twin A is moving,
                                      Twin A thinks Twin B is moving.
                                      When twin B arrives at Twin A’s
                                      location, Twin A expects Twin B to
                                      be younger, Twin B expects Twin A
                                      to be younger.  Mutually exclusive
                                      conditions (if all motion is
                                      relative). So all motion is not
                                      relative. Simple, even for post
                                      grads, like you and me.</p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">I welcome
                                      constructive, logical,
                                      suggestions, but please refrain
                                      from condescension, it does not
                                      help the cause.</p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">Chip</p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    <div>
                                      <div style="border:
                                        none;border-top: solid
                                        rgb(225,225,225) 1.0pt;padding:
                                        3.0pt 0.0in 0.0in 0.0in;">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                                              style="font-size:
                                              11.0pt;font-family:
                                              Calibri , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                            style="font-size:
                                            11.0pt;font-family: Calibri
                                            , sans-serif;"> General [<a
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                              return false;"
                                              target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                                            <b>On Behalf Of </b>John
                                            Williamson<br>
                                            <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June
                                            14, 2017 4:19 AM<br>
                                            <b>To:</b> Nature of Light
                                            and Particles - General
                                            Discussion <<a
                                              href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                              return false;"
                                              target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br>
                                            <b>Cc:</b> Darren
                                            Eggenschwiler <<a
                                              href="mailto:darren@makemeafilm.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='darren@makemeafilm.com'; return
                                              false;" target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">darren@makemeafilm.com</a>>;
                                            Innes Morrison <<a
                                              href="mailto:innes.morrison@cocoon.life"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='innes.morrison@cocoon.life';
                                              return false;"
                                              target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">innes.morrison@cocoon.life</a>>;
                                            Mark, Martin van der <<a
href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com"
                                              onclick="parent.window.location.href='martin.van.der.mark@philips.com';
                                              return false;"
                                              target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">martin.van.der.mark@philips.com</a>><br>
                                            <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                                            [General] STR twin Paradox</span></p>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                          style="font-size:
                                          10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma ,
                                          sans-serif;">Hi Chip,<br>
                                          <br>
                                          What happens for a circulating
                                          (near) lightspeed object is,
                                          not that local time or length
                                          changes, but the ring appears
                                          to get smaller for the
                                          participant - shrinking to
                                          zero length ring at
                                          lightspeed. Clocks onboard act
                                          normally. They will feel,
                                          however, feel an acceleration
                                          unless in free-fall, which can
                                          occur for a curved space -time
                                          or round the edge of the
                                          universe, for example. You
                                          really need to expand your
                                          thinking to General relativity
                                          (which is, of course, itself
                                          not the most general of all
                                          the possible proper
                                          descriptions of space and
                                          time, as it has only a simple
                                          scalar curvature) to get a
                                          proper grip on this.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Someone mentioned a muon
                                          storage ring. the stored Muons
                                          decay normally according to
                                          themselves, but see a much
                                          smaller ring. They also feel a
                                          permanent transverse
                                          acceleration. The is also
                                          (synchrotron)radiation, but
                                          this is from the system
                                          ring+muons, rather than from
                                          the muons themselves.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Most of the rest of the
                                          discussion on this has been at
                                          a level usually treated at
                                          undergraduate level. Grahame
                                          is right: you will not find a
                                          mathematical contradiction in
                                          special relativity. All this
                                          stuff has been done before.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Hope this helps,<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Cheers, John.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Regards, John W.</span></p>
                                      <div>
                                        <div class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="text-align: center;"
                                          align="center">
                                          <hr size="2" align="center"
                                            width="100%"></div>
                                        <div id="divRpF617198">
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="margin-bottom:
                                            12.0pt;"><b><span
                                                style="font-size:
                                                10.0pt;font-family:
                                                Tahoma , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                              style="font-size:
                                              10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma
                                              , sans-serif;"> General
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                                              on behalf of Chip Akins
                                              [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com">chipakins@gmail.com</a>]<br>
                                              <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June
                                              13, 2017 11:12 PM<br>
                                              <b>To:</b> 'Nature of
                                              Light and Particles -
                                              General Discussion'<br>
                                              <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                                              [General] STR twin Paradox</span></p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">Hi
                                              Grahame</p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">The
                                              reason for the huge circle
                                              in my thought experiment,
                                              is so that the velocity
                                              can be very close to c,
                                              causing relativistic time
                                              dilation, and that
                                              velocity dependent time
                                              dilation would dominate
                                              the experiment, while
                                              acceleration induced time
                                              variation would be far
                                              less significant.</p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">And I
                                              agree with you that space
                                              possesses a reference rest
                                              frame where time is not
                                              retarded in any of these
                                              or similar circumstances.</p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">But the
                                              important thing, I
                                              believe, is that all
                                              motion cannot be relative,
                                              and there cannot be full
                                              reciprocity regarding the
                                              effects of motion.  For if
                                              all motion is relative,
                                              then there is just no
                                              solution which satisfies
                                              the equations and does not
                                              present a paradox. If all
                                              motion is relative, then
                                              twin A will be younger
                                              than twin B, and twin B
                                              will be younger than twin
                                              A. But of course these are
                                              mutually exclusive
                                              answers, so all motion is
                                              not relative.</p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">So as
                                              it stands, if I am reading
                                              the comments correctly,
                                              you, me, Chandra, and
                                              Albrecht, agree that there
                                              is a more Lorentzian form
                                              of relativity, (which I
                                              feel is caused by matter
                                              being made of confined
                                              light-speed energy) which
                                              is the proper physical
                                              form of relativity in or
                                              universe.</p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">Thank
                                              you for your thoughts and
                                              comments!!!</p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">Chip</p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            <div>
                                              <div style="border:
                                                none;border-top: solid
                                                rgb(225,225,225)
                                                1.0pt;padding: 3.0pt
                                                0.0in 0.0in 0.0in;">
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                                                      style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                                    style="font-size:
                                                    11.0pt;font-family:
                                                    Calibri ,
                                                    sans-serif;">
                                                    General [<a
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                      return false;"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                                                    <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dr
                                                    Grahame Blackwell<br>
                                                    <b>Sent:</b>
                                                    Tuesday, June 13,
                                                    2017 2:09 PM<br>
                                                    <b>To:</b> Nature of
                                                    Light and Particles
                                                    - General Discussion
                                                    <<a
                                                      href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                      return false;"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br>
                                                    <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                                                    [General] STR twin
                                                    Paradox</span></p>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  10.0pt;font-family:
                                                  Arial ,
                                                  sans-serif;color:
                                                  navy;">Hi chip,</span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  10.0pt;font-family:
                                                  Arial ,
                                                  sans-serif;color:
                                                  navy;">I'm 100% with
                                                  you on this!</span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  10.0pt;font-family:
                                                  Arial ,
                                                  sans-serif;color:
                                                  navy;">I really don't
                                                  understand the notion
                                                  that 'the universe is
                                                  an observer effect' -
                                                  it makes no sense to
                                                  me whatsoever.  By the
                                                  same token, the notion
                                                  that 'collapse of the
                                                  wavefunction' is
                                                  precipitated by
                                                  observation/measurement
                                                  is to me quite
                                                  fanciful - for me
                                                  there is a much more
                                                  straightforward
                                                  explanation for the
                                                  phenomenon referred to
                                                  as 'wavefunction
                                                  collapse' (which I
                                                  don't believe to be a
                                                  collapse of any kind!)</span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  10.0pt;font-family:
                                                  Arial ,
                                                  sans-serif;color:
                                                  navy;">I'm sorry for
                                                  not responding to your
                                                  previous post sooner;
                                                  I was planning to send
                                                  a comment, but have
                                                  been fully occupied
                                                  with other pressing
                                                  matters of late.  My
                                                  observation relates to
                                                  your thought
                                                  experiment in which
                                                  each 'twin' sees the
                                                  other as travelling in
                                                  a large circle at high
                                                  speed.  For me there
                                                  is no paradox at all
                                                  in this from the SR
                                                  perspective (though
                                                  like you, I am of the
                                                  firm opinion that
                                                  there exists one
                                                  unique objectively
                                                  static rest-frame
                                                  [subject to Hubble
                                                  expansion, of course],
                                                  all other 'rest
                                                  frames' are in motion
                                                  in absoolute terms).</span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  10.0pt;font-family:
                                                  Arial ,
                                                  sans-serif;color:
                                                  navy;">If one twin is
                                                  seen by the other as
                                                  moving in a circle -
                                                  however large - but
                                                  regards themself as
                                                  being at rest, then
                                                  they will instead
                                                  experience a force
                                                  which the other twin
                                                  will regard as
                                                  acceleration towards
                                                  the centre of the
                                                  circle but that they
                                                  themself will regard
                                                  as influence of a
                                                  gravitational field
                                                  (if you doubt this,
                                                  just posit an
                                                  accelerometer on their
                                                  ship with a readout
                                                  that can be seen by,
                                                  or communicated
                                                  to, their twin).  That
                                                  influence will be
                                                  directly comparable
                                                  with the centripetal
                                                  force of
                                                  constant-speed
                                                  circular motion and
                                                  will be regarded by
                                                  that twin as causing
                                                  identical time
                                                  dilation for them c.f.
                                                  one outside the
                                                  influence of that
                                                  field.  They will
                                                  therefore expect their
                                                  OWN clock to be slowed
                                                  by an exactly
                                                  corresponding amount
                                                  from the perspective
                                                  of one not subject to
                                                  that 'gravitational
                                                  field' - so they will
                                                  fully expect their
                                                  clock and that of
                                                  their twin to be
                                                  retarded by a
                                                  precisely-equal
                                                  degree, and so that
                                                  both clocks would show
                                                  identical times on
                                                  comparison when again
                                                  passing each other.</span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  10.0pt;font-family:
                                                  Arial ,
                                                  sans-serif;color:
                                                  navy;">[As a point of
                                                  detail, making it a
                                                  very BIG circle in no
                                                  way reduces the
                                                  validity of this
                                                  analysis, it simply
                                                  requires more accurate
                                                  instrumentation - as
                                                  is always the case
                                                  with regard to details
                                                  of SR & GR.]</span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  10.0pt;font-family:
                                                  Arial ,
                                                  sans-serif;color:
                                                  navy;">As I said in my
                                                  previous comment, it
                                                  very much appears to
                                                  me that SR is 100%
                                                  self-consistent
                                                  mathematically.  This
                                                  does not make it
                                                  correct as a
                                                  representation of
                                                  physical reality - but
                                                  trying to discredit SR
                                                  by attempting to find
                                                  a flaw in the math is
                                                  to me a non-starter! 
                                                  SR will ONLY be shown
                                                  to be an incorrect
                                                  assumption (in respect
                                                  specifically of
                                                  equivalence of all
                                                  inertial reference
                                                  frames) by
                                                  consideration of the
                                                  energetic formation of
                                                  particles (which can
                                                  also be approached
                                                  indirectly by way of
                                                  the Energy-Momentum
                                                  Relation).</span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  10.0pt;font-family:
                                                  Arial ,
                                                  sans-serif;color:
                                                  navy;">[Another point
                                                  of detail: I have
                                                  included a fairly
                                                  exhaustive analysis of
                                                  Hasselkamp et al's
                                                  experiment in my book:
                                                  this shows that even
                                                  so-called '2nd order
                                                  Doppler effect' cannot
                                                  be used to detect
                                                  motion of the earth
                                                  wrt the objective
                                                  universal rest state,
                                                  no matter how accurate
                                                  readings or
                                                  instrumentation.  SR
                                                  is a VERY
                                                  tightly-meshed cage!]</span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  10.0pt;font-family:
                                                  Arial ,
                                                  sans-serif;color:
                                                  navy;">Best regards,</span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  10.0pt;font-family:
                                                  Arial ,
                                                  sans-serif;color:
                                                  navy;">Grahame</span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <blockquote style="border:
                                              none;border-left: solid
                                              navy 1.5pt;padding: 0.0in
                                              0.0in 0.0in
                                              4.0pt;margin-left:
                                              3.75pt;margin-top:
                                              5.0pt;margin-right:
                                              0.0in;margin-bottom:
                                              5.0pt;">
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                    style="font-size:
                                                    10.0pt;font-family:
                                                    Arial , sans-serif;">-----
                                                    Original Message
                                                    ----- </span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="background:
                                                  rgb(228,228,228);"><b><span
                                                      style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Arial , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                                    style="font-size:
                                                    10.0pt;font-family:
                                                    Arial , sans-serif;">
                                                  </span><a
                                                    href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='chipakins@gmail.com'; return
                                                    false;"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    title="chipakins@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: Arial
                                                      , sans-serif;">Chip
                                                      Akins</span></a><span
                                                    style="font-size:
                                                    10.0pt;font-family:
                                                    Arial , sans-serif;">
                                                  </span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                                                      style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Arial , sans-serif;">To:</span></b><span
                                                    style="font-size:
                                                    10.0pt;font-family:
                                                    Arial , sans-serif;">
                                                  </span><a
                                                    href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                    return false;"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: Arial
                                                      , sans-serif;">'Nature
                                                      of Light and
                                                      Particles -
                                                      General
                                                      Discussion'</span></a><span
                                                    style="font-size:
                                                    10.0pt;font-family:
                                                    Arial , sans-serif;">
                                                  </span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                                                      style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Arial , sans-serif;">Sent:</span></b><span
                                                    style="font-size:
                                                    10.0pt;font-family:
                                                    Arial , sans-serif;">
                                                    Tuesday, June 13,
                                                    2017 5:34 PM</span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                                                      style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family: Arial , sans-serif;">Subject:</span></b><span
                                                    style="font-size:
                                                    10.0pt;font-family:
                                                    Arial , sans-serif;">
                                                    Re: [General] STR
                                                    twin Paradox</span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              </div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">Hi
                                                Chandra</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">I
                                                don’t know if the others
                                                are not receiving my
                                                posts or if they are
                                                just being ignored.</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">The
                                                current exchange is
                                                quite disheartening
                                                however.</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">To
                                                postulate that an
                                                observer creates the
                                                universe he experiences
                                                is absurd in so many
                                                ways, and counter to the
                                                evidence in so many
                                                ways, that I cannot
                                                believe we have spent so
                                                much time in such a
                                                discussion.</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">All
                                                the evidence suggests
                                                the universe existed
                                                before observers, and
                                                continues to exist as
                                                each of us dies. The
                                                universe does what it
                                                does whether we observe
                                                it or not.  We can only
                                                make very slight,
                                                insignificant changes to
                                                the overall state of the
                                                universe. When we cause
                                                an interaction to occur
                                                by observation, it has
                                                an effect, but that does
                                                not mean that the
                                                universe is
                                                observer-centric. It
                                                just means that the
                                                universe does what it
                                                does.  When interactions
                                                occur a set of rules
                                                exist which govern those
                                                interactions.</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">In a
                                                universe which is in
                                                effect created in the
                                                mind of the observer, I
                                                am the only observer
                                                that I know to exist. 
                                                The rest of the mentally
                                                imagined observers I
                                                interact with are
                                                figments of my mind. So
                                                it does no good to
                                                communicate with those
                                                figments and try to
                                                convince those imagined
                                                others of anything.</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">Experience
                                                indicates that this is
                                                not the type of universe
                                                we live in.  Other
                                                sentient minds are
                                                present, all of us
                                                finding that Washington
                                                DC is located in the
                                                same spot and has the
                                                same buildings. We live
                                                in a single universe
                                                which has many sentient
                                                minds all seeing
                                                principally the same
                                                thing. We know this
                                                because we communicate
                                                with others, and compare
                                                notes.</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">Once
                                                we understand the
                                                physics well enough we
                                                can see that
                                                wave-function collapse
                                                is NOT required to
                                                explain an interaction.
                                                So the reason for some
                                                quantum physicists
                                                overreaching and
                                                concluding that the
                                                observer has a
                                                significant bearing on
                                                physics then is a mute
                                                argument.</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">We,
                                                as a species, seem to
                                                tend to look for the
                                                most “mentally
                                                stimulating”
                                                explanations, rather
                                                than sticking to the
                                                scientific approach, and
                                                looking for the most
                                                theoretically economical
                                                and practical answers.</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">The
                                                universe has many
                                                lessons for us embedded
                                                within.  One of the most
                                                striking lessons is the
                                                elegant simplicity of
                                                how everything works. 
                                                If we keep this elegant
                                                simplicity in mind as we
                                                look for the rest of the
                                                answers, we are far more
                                                likely to find the right
                                                answers.</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">Warmest
                                                Regards</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">Charles
                                                (Chip) Akins</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              <div>
                                                <div style="border:
                                                  none;border-top: solid
                                                  rgb(225,225,225)
                                                  1.0pt;padding: 3.0pt
                                                  0.0in 0.0in 0.0in;">
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </blockquote>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
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