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<p>Hi Grahame,</p>
<p>without going into details of this discussion I only want to
point to the following fact:</p>
<p>Whereas you are of course right that the twin situation is not a
paradox but logically clean, what we all as I think have
sufficiently discussed here, the following is not correct in my
view:</p>
<p>The twin situation has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with gravity.</p>
<p>Two arguments for this:</p>
<p>o The so called twin paradox is purely Special Relativity.
Gravity on the other hand, is General Relativity. This is the
formal point.</p>
<p>o From practical numbers it is visible that gravity cannot be an
explanation. Take the usual example saying that one twin stays at
home and the other one travels - as seen from the twin at home -
for twenty years away and then twenty years back. From the view of
the twin at home, at the other ones return 40 years have gone. For
the travelling twin only one year has gone (This case is
theoretically possible if the proper speed is taken, about
0.9997c)). Then the travelling twin would have saved 39 years of
life time. Now look at the possible influence of gravity: Assume
it takes the travelling twin a year to change his speed from
almost c to almost - c , then, even if the speed of proper time
would decrease to zero, he would have saved only one year. But, in
this example, he has saved 39 years. How could this work? No one
in physics assumes that proper time can run inversely. So this is
no possible explanation.</p>
<p>How is it explained? I do not want to repeat again and again the
correct (but a bit lengthy) explanation, but I attempt to give a
short version: In Einstein's relativity the run of time in
different frames can logically not be continuously compared, it
can only be compared at interaction points where two clocks (or
whatever) are at the same position. And the determination of the
situation at such common position has to be done by the Lorentz
transformation. And this determination works, as many times said
here, without logical conflicts.</p>
<p>If you solve this problem using the Lorentzian SRT, then the
result is the same but the argument is different, more
physics-related, and also better for the imagination. If wanted, I
can of course explain it.</p>
<p>Albrecht<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.08.2017 um 01:13 schrieb Dr
Grahame Blackwell:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CCE2F4D7ECF5430E943629241B634443@vincent">
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<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">I'm sorry Wolf,
but it seems that you're still not getting it.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">This situation
can be explained fully logically WITHOUT either twin making
any assumptions about SR or GR - simply from their own
observations and from well-proven experimental findings.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">If we label the
twins A and B, then their situations are effectively
symmetric* - so we'll consider the scenario from the viewpoint
of twin A.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">A considers
him/herself static, and all motion to be attributable to twin
B. So - and this agrees with experimental observation of
clocks at high speed (in planes and in GPS satellites) - twin
A will observe twin B's clock running slow, if A's own clock
is not upset by any effect. HOWEVER, since A is actually
travelling in circular motion, (s)he will experience a
centripetal force; assuming him/herself to be static, this
will necessarily be attributed to gravitational effects - and
it's well known from experiment (Pound-Rebka and successors)
that gravitational fields cause time dilation - so A will
expect their own clock to be running more slowly also due to
that 'gravitational' effect (note that this is not any
assumption of SR or GR, simply inference from proven
experimental results) [and so also A's observation of B's
clock, measured against A's own clock, will not fit the
standard SR time-dilation model, for reasons that A will fully
comprehend]. For A, the cumulative time-dilation for B's
perceived relative speed and for A's own perceived
'gravitational' effect exactly balance - so A will fully
expect both clocks to coincide when the twins meet again (as B
will also).</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">No paradox.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">* It needs to be
said that further study of causation of 'relativistic time
dilation' leads to the understanding that this is an objective
effect due to travelling at speed relative to the unique
objectively-static universal reference frame. So if the
centre of the circle traced out by A and B is itself in motion
relative to that reference frame then it cannot be assumed
that A's and B's motions will be symmetric; in that case their
clocks may well not be precisely synchronised on their meeting
again. This is an observation relating to physical reality,
which in no way contradicts the self-consistency of SR (or GR)
as a mathematical system.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Best regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Grahame</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">=======</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
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<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a title="wolf@nascentinc.com"
href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">Wolfgang
Baer</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Nature of Light and Particles -
General Discussion</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 26,
2017 3:09 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [General] [NEW]
SRT twin Paradox</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Dear John W, Grahame nd Albrecht:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I cannot let this request for help go
unanswered: </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I do not believe we have a any
fundamental disagreement with the twin paradox. <span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>It never was anything
more than a semantic problem. If two twins with identical
and locally synchronized clocks are set on equal circular
orbits in opposite directions and meet again and compare
clocks, I believe it is an experimental fact that the clocks
will run at the same rate (neglecting solar gravity if
experiments are conducted near earth)</p>
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</span>The appearance of a twin paradox in my opinion is
completely due to Einstein’s sloppy writing. In his 1905
paper, which I looked up, he explicitly stated that a clock
making a round trip at velocity “v” will slow down compared
with a stationary observer. The argument that both observers
applying Einstein’s theory would NOT come to this
paradoxical conclusion is based on an interpretation by a
host of well meaning physicists of Einstein’s original paper
that suggests that each observer, knowing relativity would
use this knowledge analyze the situation as shown in figure
1 above and therefore not expect the other clock to slow
down. As Kracklauer correctly pointed out that there is an
original SRT that had the twin paradox people justly
criticized Einstein for it and a slightly revised SRT that
explains it away is usually not mentioned. I think we all
understand this and I have no argument with Albrecht on this
point.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now however I insist that the speed of
light is NOT constant because it depends upon the situation
the material (observer material) finds itself in a
gravitational field. As long as the field in that material
is fairly homogeneous the speed of light in that observers
material is representative of the speed of EM interactions
and is constant. And recognizing this dependency is critical
to making progress in physics by eliminating the crazy
adjustments to classical physics the wrog interpretation of
bith SRT and GRT has hoisted upon us.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now Albrecht correctly states that
synchrotron experiments show that the speed of light is
constant and the mass is varying. </p>
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<!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Now we have the situation of a charged
particle traveling around a circular orbit. Like the Bohr
model of the Hydrogen atom, except much faster. Now my CAT
theory assumes that charge and mass are held together by a
Force that I have introduced for example in the Vigier 9
paper. This means the internal structure of the orbiting
electron would be expanded and the extra energy is stored
not in a mass increase but in the stretch of the spring
metaphorically holding the two together.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Interestingly
enough both particles woul exhibit an internal rotation I
believe is spin. I think I could duplicate Sommerfelds fine
structure correction but have not had the time to do so and
<b>would welcome help</b>.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But I thing I have a new and better
interpretation od both SRT and GRT - I've been trying to get
this across to Albrecht and I believe we now have tangible
analysis problem before us to resolve our disagreement<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So let me steer the conversation to this
new challenge</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best wishes</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wolf</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/25/2017 7:48 AM, Albrecht
Giese wrote:</div>
<p>Dear John W and Grahame,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I think that I should explain a bit about this discussion
between Wolf and myself. Why this discussion is as it is.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I find the topic of Wolf about conciousness very
interesting and very important. So I have continued with
this discussion. But, unfortunately in my view, Wolf is
basing his thoughts on a wrong understanding of relativity.
The finds that this "incorrect" theory 'SRT' is an
indication of our human failure to understand physics and so
of our misleading consciousness. - But not SRT is incorrect
(as some of you have already and repeatedly written) but
Wolf's understanding is wrong. - I am trying to give Wolf a
correct understanding as a precondition for a successful
development of the issue of consciousness. I see that this
may be boring for those who have understood relativity. But
what else can we do to get ahead?</p>
Any ideas?<br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
</div>
<p> </p>
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