<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Graham:</p>
<p>I do not see any misunderstanding except perhaps a semantic one -
there is no paradox whether the clock rate is deduced from a
knowledge of GRT or from well known experiments is not a
distinction I think worth arguing about. The point is that given a
broader knoweledge of physics that what Einstein explained in hie
seminal 1905 paper there is no paradox. I agree. <br>
</p>
<p>Albrecht:</p>
<p>I just cannot grasp how you can say gravity has nothing to do
with it. If two twins pass each other with a relative velocity
would not the straight forward application of the Lorenz
transformations result that both twins conclude the other twin is
going more slowly than ones own. This is what Einstein and every
elementary text on SRT calculates t' = t (1-c<sup>2</sup>/v<sup>2</sup>)<sup>-1/2</sup><br>
</p>
<p>I'm not taking about anyting more, no additional understanding
about clock rates from experiments or GRT, just the time dilation
relationship<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/27/2017 11:48 AM, Albrecht Giese
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:f6321326-fb9e-ec43-d479-a1202e8c1bfe@a-giese.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p>Hi Grahame,</p>
<p>without going into details of this discussion I only want to
point to the following fact:</p>
<p>Whereas you are of course right that the twin situation is not
a paradox but logically clean, what we all as I think have
sufficiently discussed here, the following is not correct in my
view:</p>
<p>The twin situation has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with gravity.</p>
<p>Two arguments for this:</p>
<p>o The so called twin paradox is purely Special Relativity.
Gravity on the other hand, is General Relativity. This is the
formal point.</p>
<p>o From practical numbers it is visible that gravity cannot be
an explanation. Take the usual example saying that one twin
stays at home and the other one travels - as seen from the twin
at home - for twenty years away and then twenty years back. From
the view of the twin at home, at the other ones return 40 years
have gone. For the travelling twin only one year has gone (This
case is theoretically possible if the proper speed is taken,
about 0.9997c)). Then the travelling twin would have saved 39
years of life time. Now look at the possible influence of
gravity: Assume it takes the travelling twin a year to change
his speed from almost c to almost - c , then, even if the speed
of proper time would decrease to zero, he would have saved only
one year. But, in this example, he has saved 39 years. How could
this work? No one in physics assumes that proper time can run
inversely. So this is no possible explanation.</p>
<p>How is it explained? I do not want to repeat again and again
the correct (but a bit lengthy) explanation, but I attempt to
give a short version: In Einstein's relativity the run of time
in different frames can logically not be continuously compared,
it can only be compared at interaction points where two clocks
(or whatever) are at the same position. And the determination of
the situation at such common position has to be done by the
Lorentz transformation. And this determination works, as many
times said here, without logical conflicts.</p>
<p>If you solve this problem using the Lorentzian SRT, then the
result is the same but the argument is different, more
physics-related, and also better for the imagination. If wanted,
I can of course explain it.</p>
<p>Albrecht<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.08.2017 um 01:13 schrieb Dr
Grahame Blackwell:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CCE2F4D7ECF5430E943629241B634443@vincent">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="content-type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23588">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">I'm sorry Wolf,
but it seems that you're still not getting it.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">This situation
can be explained fully logically WITHOUT either twin making
any assumptions about SR or GR - simply from their own
observations and from well-proven experimental findings.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">If we label the
twins A and B, then their situations are effectively
symmetric* - so we'll consider the scenario from the
viewpoint of twin A.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">A considers
him/herself static, and all motion to be attributable to
twin B. So - and this agrees with experimental observation
of clocks at high speed (in planes and in GPS satellites) -
twin A will observe twin B's clock running slow, if A's own
clock is not upset by any effect. HOWEVER, since A is
actually travelling in circular motion, (s)he will
experience a centripetal force; assuming him/herself to be
static, this will necessarily be attributed to gravitational
effects - and it's well known from experiment (Pound-Rebka
and successors) that gravitational fields cause time
dilation - so A will expect their own clock to be running
more slowly also due to that 'gravitational' effect (note
that this is not any assumption of SR or GR, simply
inference from proven experimental results) [and so also A's
observation of B's clock, measured against A's own clock,
will not fit the standard SR time-dilation model, for
reasons that A will fully comprehend]. For A, the
cumulative time-dilation for B's perceived relative speed
and for A's own perceived 'gravitational' effect exactly
balance - so A will fully expect both clocks to coincide
when the twins meet again (as B will also).</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">No paradox.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">* It needs to
be said that further study of causation of 'relativistic
time dilation' leads to the understanding that this is an
objective effect due to travelling at speed relative to the
unique objectively-static universal reference frame. So if
the centre of the circle traced out by A and B is itself in
motion relative to that reference frame then it cannot be
assumed that A's and B's motions will be symmetric; in that
case their clocks may well not be precisely synchronised on
their meeting again. This is an observation relating to
physical reality, which in no way contradicts the
self-consistency of SR (or GR) as a mathematical system.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Best regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Grahame</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">=======</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a title="wolf@nascentinc.com"
href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">Wolfgang
Baer</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Nature of Light and Particles -
General Discussion</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August
26, 2017 3:09 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [General] [NEW]
SRT twin Paradox</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Dear John W, Grahame nd Albrecht:<br>
<div class="moz-forward-container">
<p>
<meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11">
<meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11">
<link rel="File-List"
href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cbaer%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml">
<link rel="Edit-Time-Data"
href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cbaer%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_editdata.mso">
<!--[if !mso]>
<STYLE>v\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
o\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
w\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
..shape {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
</STYLE>
<![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<w:WordDocument>
<w:View>Normal</w:View>
<w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>
<w:PunctuationKerning/>
<w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>
<w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>
<w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>
<w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>
<w:Compatibility>
<w:BreakWrappedTables/>
<w:SnapToGridInCell/>
<w:WrapTextWithPunct/>
<w:UseAsianBreakRules/>
<w:DontGrowAutofit/>
</w:Compatibility>
<w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>
</w:WordDocument>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156">
</w:LatentStyles>
</xml><![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style><!--[if gte mso 10]>
<style>
/* Style Definitions */
table.MsoNormalTable
{mso-style-name:"Table Normal";
mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;
mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-parent:"";
mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
mso-para-margin:0in;
mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-ansi-language:#0400;
mso-fareast-language:#0400;
mso-bidi-language:#0400;}
</style>
<![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1048"/>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/>
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I cannot let this request for help go
unanswered: </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I do not believe we have a any
fundamental disagreement with the twin paradox. <span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>It never was anything
more than a semantic problem. If two twins with identical
and locally synchronized clocks are set on equal circular
orbits in opposite directions and meet again and compare
clocks, I believe it is an experimental fact that the
clocks will run at the same rate (neglecting solar gravity
if experiments are conducted near earth)</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:group id="_x0000_s1026" style='position:absolute;
margin-left:106.5pt;margin-top:8.5pt;width:156pt;height:163.5pt;z-index:1'
coordorigin="3910,3784" coordsize="3120,3270">
<v:oval id="_x0000_s1027" style='position:absolute;left:3910;top:3974;width:3120;
height:3080;mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute'/>
<v:shapetype id="_x0000_t202" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="202" path="m,l,21600r21600,l21600,xe">
<v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/>
<v:path gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/>
</v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_s1028" type="#_x0000_t202" style='position:absolute;
left:4910;top:3784;width:510;height:480;mso-position-horizontal:absolute;
mso-position-vertical:absolute'>
<v:textbox style='mso-next-textbox:#_x0000_s1028'>
<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
<tr>
<td><![endif]>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>1</p>
</div>
<![if !mso]></td>
</tr>
</table>
<![endif]></v:textbox>
</v:shape><v:shape id="_x0000_s1029" type="#_x0000_t202" style='position:absolute;
left:5430;top:3814;width:510;height:480;mso-position-horizontal:absolute;
mso-position-vertical:absolute'>
<v:textbox style='mso-next-textbox:#_x0000_s1029'>
<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
<tr>
<td><![endif]>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>21</p>
</div>
<![if !mso]></td>
</tr>
</table>
<![endif]></v:textbox>
</v:shape><v:line id="_x0000_s1030" style='position:absolute;
mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute' from="6010,3914"
to="6890,4404" coordsize="21600,21600">
<v:stroke endarrow="block"/>
</v:line><v:line id="_x0000_s1031" style='position:absolute;flip:x;
mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute' from="3910,3974"
to="4820,4584" coordsize="21600,21600">
<v:stroke endarrow="block"/>
</v:line><v:shape id="_x0000_s1032" type="#_x0000_t202" style='position:absolute;
left:5020;top:5254;width:810;height:490;mso-position-horizontal:absolute;
mso-position-vertical:absolute' filled="f" stroked="f">
<v:textbox>
<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
<tr>
<td><![endif]>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Mass</p>
</div>
<![if !mso]></td>
</tr>
</table>
<![endif]></v:textbox>
</v:shape><v:oval id="_x0000_s1033" style='position:absolute;left:5040;top:5194;
width:750;height:650' filled="f"/>
</v:group><v:shape id="_x0000_s1034" type="#_x0000_t202" style='position:absolute;
margin-left:166.5pt;margin-top:177.3pt;width:45pt;height:22pt;z-index:2;
mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute'/><![endif]--><!--[if
!vml]--><span style="mso-ignore: vglayout"> </span></p>
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" align="left">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td height="10" width="137"><br>
</td>
<td width="82"><br>
</td>
<td width="66"><br>
</td>
<td width="66"><br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td height="222"><br>
</td>
<td colspan="3" valign="top" align="left"><img
src="cid:part3.9FBAD8E7.2037D597@nascentinc.com"
v:shapes="_x0000_s1026 _x0000_s1027 _x0000_s1028
_x0000_s1029 _x0000_s1030 _x0000_s1031
_x0000_s1032 _x0000_s1033" class="" height="222"
width="214"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td height="3"><br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td height="36"><br>
</td>
<td><br>
</td>
<td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: black 0.75pt solid;
BORDER-LEFT: black 0.75pt solid; BACKGROUND: white;
VERTICAL-ALIGN: top; BORDER-TOP: black 0.75pt solid;
BORDER-RIGHT: black 0.75pt solid" bgcolor="white"
height="36" width="66"><!--[endif]--><!--[if
!mso]--><span style="Z-INDEX: 2; POSITION:
absolute; mso-ignore: vglayout">
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><!--[endif]-->
<div style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.35pt;
PADDING-LEFT: 7.95pt; PADDING-RIGHT:
7.95pt; PADDING-TOP: 4.35pt"
class="shape" v:shape="_x0000_s1034">
<p class="MsoNormal">Fig 1</p>
</div>
<!--[if !mso]--></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</span><!--[endif]--><!--[if !mso &
!vml]--> <!--[endif]--><!--[if
!vml]--></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<br style="mso-ignore: vglayout" clear="all">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</span>The appearance of a twin paradox in my opinion is
completely due to Einstein’s sloppy writing. In his 1905
paper, which I looked up, he explicitly stated that a
clock making a round trip at velocity “v” will slow down
compared with a stationary observer. The argument that
both observers applying Einstein’s theory would NOT come
to this paradoxical conclusion is based on an
interpretation by a host of well meaning physicists of
Einstein’s original paper that suggests that each
observer, knowing relativity would use this knowledge
analyze the situation as shown in figure 1 above and
therefore not expect the other clock to slow down. As
Kracklauer correctly pointed out that there is an original
SRT that had the twin paradox people justly criticized
Einstein for it and a slightly revised SRT that explains
it away is usually not mentioned. I think we all
understand this and I have no argument with Albrecht on
this point.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now however I insist that the speed of
light is NOT constant because it depends upon the
situation the material (observer material) finds itself in
a gravitational field. As long as the field in that
material is fairly homogeneous the speed of light in that
observers material is representative of the speed of EM
interactions and is constant. And recognizing this
dependency is critical to making progress in physics by
eliminating the crazy adjustments to classical physics the
wrog interpretation of bith SRT and GRT has hoisted upon
us.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now Albrecht correctly states that
synchrotron experiments show that the speed of light is
constant and the mass is varying. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:oval id="_x0000_s1035" style='position:absolute;
margin-left:61.5pt;margin-top:2.1pt;width:214pt;height:214pt;z-index:3;
mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute'/><v:shape
id="_x0000_s1036" type="#_x0000_t202" style='position:absolute;margin-left:155.5pt;
margin-top:-26.9pt;width:25.5pt;height:24pt;z-index:4;
mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute'>
<v:textbox style='mso-next-textbox:#_x0000_s1036'>
<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
<tr>
<td><![endif]>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>m</p>
</div>
<![if !mso]></td>
</tr>
</table>
<![endif]></v:textbox>
</v:shape><v:line id="_x0000_s1037" style='position:absolute;z-index:5;
mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute' from="184.5pt,-15.4pt"
to="235.5pt,-14.9pt" coordsize="21600,21600">
<v:stroke endarrow="block"/>
</v:line><v:shape id="_x0000_s1038" type="#_x0000_t202" style='position:absolute;
margin-left:148pt;margin-top:122.7pt;width:40.5pt;height:24.5pt;z-index:6;
mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute' filled="f">
<v:textbox>
<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
<tr>
<td><![endif]>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Mass</p>
</div>
<![if !mso]></td>
</tr>
</table>
<![endif]></v:textbox>
</v:shape><v:oval id="_x0000_s1039" style='position:absolute;margin-left:152.5pt;
margin-top:79.35pt;width:29pt;height:26pt;z-index:7;mso-position-horizontal:absolute;
mso-position-vertical:absolute' filled="f"/><v:group id="_x0000_s1041"
style='position:absolute;margin-left:152.5pt;margin-top:11pt;width:33.5pt;
height:28.1pt;z-index:9' coordorigin="7340,2020" coordsize="670,562">
<v:shape id="_x0000_s1042" type="#_x0000_t202" style='position:absolute;
left:7360;top:2032;width:650;height:550;mso-position-horizontal:absolute;
mso-position-vertical:absolute' filled="f" stroked="f">
<v:textbox style='mso-next-textbox:#_x0000_s1042'>
<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
<tr>
<td><![endif]>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>ch</p>
</div>
<![if !mso]></td>
</tr>
</table>
<![endif]></v:textbox>
</v:shape><v:oval id="_x0000_s1043" style='position:absolute;left:7340;top:2020;
width:590;height:500' filled="f"/>
</v:group><v:shape id="_x0000_s1044" type="#_x0000_t202" style='position:absolute;
margin-left:150.5pt;margin-top:79.75pt;width:31pt;height:24pt;z-index:10;
mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute' filled="f"
stroked="f">
<v:textbox>
<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
<tr>
<td><![endif]>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Ch</p>
</div>
<![if !mso]></td>
</tr>
</table>
<![endif]></v:textbox>
</v:shape><v:shape id="_x0000_s1045" style='position:absolute;margin-left:152.85pt;
margin-top:-13pt;width:25.55pt;height:34.5pt;z-index:11;
mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute' coordsize="511,690"
path="m293,v26,67,53,135,10,180c260,225,,257,33,270v33,13,462,-22,470,-10c511,272,95,325,83,340v-12,15,348,-7,350,10c435,367,93,427,93,440v,13,337,-22,340,-10c436,442,133,493,113,510v-20,17,163,-10,200,20c350,560,341,625,333,690e"
filled="f">
<v:path arrowok="t"/>
</v:shape><v:shape id="_x0000_s1046" style='position:absolute;margin-left:151.85pt;
margin-top:94.7pt;width:25.55pt;height:34.5pt;z-index:12;
mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute' coordsize="511,690"
path="m293,v26,67,53,135,10,180c260,225,,257,33,270v33,13,462,-22,470,-10c511,272,95,325,83,340v-12,15,348,-7,350,10c435,367,93,427,93,440v,13,337,-22,340,-10c436,442,133,493,113,510v-20,17,163,-10,200,20c350,560,341,625,333,690e"
filled="f">
<v:path arrowok="t"/>
</v:shape><v:shape id="_x0000_s1047" type="#_x0000_t202" style='position:absolute;
margin-left:187.5pt;margin-top:-36pt;width:113pt;height:20pt;z-index:13;
mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute' filled="f"
stroked="f">
<v:textbox>
<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
<tr>
<td><![endif]>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>~c speed of light</p>
</div>
<![if !mso]></td>
</tr>
</table>
<![endif]></v:textbox>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><span style="Z-INDEX: 3;
POSITION: relative; WIDTH: 322px; HEIGHT: 339px; TOP:
-48px; LEFT: 81px; mso-ignore: vglayout"><img
src="cid:part4.1AF80865.A570719D@nascentinc.com"
v:shapes="_x0000_s1035 _x0000_s1036 _x0000_s1037
_x0000_s1038 _x0000_s1039 _x0000_s1041 _x0000_s1042
_x0000_s1043 _x0000_s1044 _x0000_s1045 _x0000_s1046
_x0000_s1047" class="" height="339" width="322"></span><!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> <br>
</o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1040" type="#_x0000_t202"
style='position:absolute;margin-left:140pt;margin-top:4.2pt;width:45pt;
height:22pt;z-index:8;mso-position-horizontal:absolute;
mso-position-vertical:absolute'/><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><span
style="mso-ignore: vglayout"> </span></p>
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" align="left">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td height="5" width="186"><br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><br>
</td>
<td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: black 0.75pt solid;
BORDER-LEFT: black 0.75pt solid; BACKGROUND: white;
VERTICAL-ALIGN: top; BORDER-TOP: black 0.75pt solid;
BORDER-RIGHT: black 0.75pt solid" bgcolor="white"
height="35" width="66"><!--[endif]--><!--[if
!mso]--><span style="Z-INDEX: 8; POSITION:
absolute; mso-ignore: vglayout">
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><!--[endif]-->
<div style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.35pt;
PADDING-LEFT: 7.95pt; PADDING-RIGHT:
7.95pt; PADDING-TOP: 4.35pt"
class="shape" v:shape="_x0000_s1040">
<p class="MsoNormal">Fig 2</p>
</div>
<!--[if !mso]--></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</span><!--[endif]--><!--[if !mso &
!vml]--> <!--[endif]--><!--[if
!vml]--></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<br style="mso-ignore: vglayout" clear="all">
<p class="MsoNormal">Now we have the situation of a charged
particle traveling around a circular orbit. Like the Bohr
model of the Hydrogen atom, except much faster. Now my CAT
theory assumes that charge and mass are held together by a
Force that I have introduced for example in the Vigier 9
paper. This means the internal structure of the orbiting
electron would be expanded and the extra energy is stored
not in a mass increase but in the stretch of the spring
metaphorically holding the two together.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Interestingly
enough both particles woul exhibit an internal rotation I
believe is spin. I think I could duplicate Sommerfelds
fine structure correction but have not had the time to do
so and <b>would welcome help</b>.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But I thing I have a new and better
interpretation od both SRT and GRT - I've been trying to
get this across to Albrecht and I believe we now have
tangible analysis problem before us to resolve our
disagreement<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So let me steer the conversation to
this new challenge</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best wishes</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wolf</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/25/2017 7:48 AM, Albrecht
Giese wrote:</div>
<p>Dear John W and Grahame,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I think that I should explain a bit about this discussion
between Wolf and myself. Why this discussion is as it is.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I find the topic of Wolf about conciousness very
interesting and very important. So I have continued with
this discussion. But, unfortunately in my view, Wolf is
basing his thoughts on a wrong understanding of
relativity. The finds that this "incorrect" theory 'SRT'
is an indication of our human failure to understand
physics and so of our misleading consciousness. - But not
SRT is incorrect (as some of you have already and
repeatedly written) but Wolf's understanding is wrong. - I
am trying to give Wolf a correct understanding as a
precondition for a successful development of the issue of
consciousness. I see that this may be boring for those who
have understood relativity. But what else can we do to get
ahead?</p>
Any ideas?<br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
</div>
<p> </p>
<hr> _______________________________________________<br>
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature
of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:grahame@starweave.com" moz-do-not-send="true">grahame@starweave.com</a><br>
<a
href=<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/grahame%40starweave.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"
moz-do-not-send="true">"http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/grahame%40starweave.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"</a>><br>
Click here to unsubscribe<br>
</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de" moz-do-not-send="true">phys@a-giese.de</a>
<a href=<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/phys%40a-giese.de?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" moz-do-not-send="true">"http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/phys%40a-giese.de?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"</a>>
Click here to unsubscribe
</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 18px;"><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><img
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"
alt="" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
moz-do-not-send="true" height="29" width="46"></a></td>
<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 17px; color:
#41424e; font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif; line-height: 18px;">Virenfrei. <a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient"
target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.avast.com</a> </td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
height="1" moz-do-not-send="true"> </a></div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Wolf@nascentinc.com">Wolf@nascentinc.com</a>
<a href=<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/wolf%40nascentinc.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1">"http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/wolf%40nascentinc.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"</a>>
Click here to unsubscribe
</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>