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<p><font size="-1" face="Arial">Hi Grahame,</font></p>
<p><font size="-1" face="Arial">sorry, but I find a very fundamental
error in your arguments: You describe a pair of twins which
observe each other in a situation where they are permanently
accelerated. And then you argue with dilation caused by gravity.
But that does not fit the physical reality.</font></p>
<p><font size="-1" face="Arial">Gravity and acceleration are
different regarding dilation. Gravity causes dilation, no
question. But acceleration does not cause dilation. How can one
know? 1) You find this in every textbook about special
relativity; 2) it was experimentally proven in the Muon storage
ring at CERN. The extension of the life time of the muons was
only dependent on the actual speed of the particles, not on the
very strong acceleration in the ring. If that would have been an
effect according to an equivalent gravitational field, their
lifetime would have to be extended by an additional factor of
roughly 1000 compared to the results observed.<br>
</font></p>
<font size="-1" face="Arial"><br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><font size="-1" face="Arial">Am
27.08.2017 um 22:18 schrieb Dr Grahame Blackwell:</font><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0C943D193FFC4E568685FEB833FA0E59@vincent">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
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<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Hi Albrecht,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">I'm afraid I have
to disagree with you on a couple of points.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">First, I agree
completely that gravitation doesn't come under SR. However
the concept of gravitation is essential to explanation of the
'twins going in opposite directions around a circle and
meeting on the far side' (non-)paradox. [It may be that in
your view this scenario cannot then be simply a playing-out of
SR, it must be a GR issue?]</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Consider: Twin A
and twin B each view themselves as being static, with the
other twin tracing out a path that takes them away and then
brings them back into proximity from a different direction,
having formed a loop of some kind; however, from the point of
view of an observer static with respect to the centre of a
large circle, A and B have started together at some point on
the perimeter of that circle and have each followed opposite
halves of that circle to meet again on its other side. I.e.
from the perspective of that observer the motions of A and B
are symmetric, so their clocks (synchronised at the start)
will still be synchronised when they meet again. [We're
assuming here that this all takes place in deep space, far
from any gravitational influences.]</font></div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#000080"><font size="2"><font face="Arial">None of the
twins can view himself as being static, because they are
accelerated all the time and they will notice that. So the
laws of SR are not applicable for this process in a simple
way.</font></font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0C943D193FFC4E568685FEB833FA0E59@vincent">
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">From A's point of
view, A has remained static and B has performed a large loop
in space, finally coming back alongside A. According to SR,
therefore, A will observe a slowing-down of B's clock and so
will expect B's clock to have lost time, in real terms as
measured in A's frame (if it were an inertial frame). <br>
</font></div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#000080"><font size="2"><font face="Arial">No, it is
not an inertial frame.</font></font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0C943D193FFC4E568685FEB833FA0E59@vincent">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080"> [We can deal
with the issue of A reading B's clock whilst B is on the move
by B digitally emitting their clock-time at intervals, to be
received by A who will assess those transmissions on the basis
of their crossing space at speed c across the distance that A
measures B to be from him at times of transmission - this
could be done fairly easily by A keeping a record of B's
distance at all times as measured on A's clock.]</font></div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#000080"><font size="2"><font face="Arial">Also this is
not possible. A can receive signals from B, but he does not
know the distance. According to SR this distance is not
clearly defined because the assessment of any distance depends
on the motion state of the observer. Which speed will A assume
for himself? He cannot assume to be static as he notices to be
accelerated.</font></font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0C943D193FFC4E568685FEB833FA0E59@vincent">
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">B will have a
corresponding mirror-image experience of A's motion, and so
will expect A to have lost time in real (B-frame) terms. This
appears to suggest that both A and B would each expect the
other's clock to have fallen behind their own - a paradox.</font></div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#000080"><font size="2"><font face="Arial">Also
regarding time a similar problem like for distance is
applicable. When are signals in different frames synchronised
or when is time is running faster or slower? For any observer
in different frames the result of this question may be
different. </font></font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0C943D193FFC4E568685FEB833FA0E59@vincent">
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">However, our
external observer will have seen A performing a circular
course - so A will inevitably have experienced a 'G-force' of
some kind (centripetal, from our observer's persective).
Since A considers him/herself to be static, he/she MUST
attribute this to some gravitational influence - indeed, from
the SR/GR perspective there must indeed be a gravitational
influence in A's frame, from the perspective of that frame;
one just does not get G-force without either acceleration or
gravitation. (Here, of course, Relativity begins to become
unravelled, as A is far from any massive body that could give
rise to a gravitational field - maybe they'll need to start
inventing their own local 'dark matter'). Note that the
scenario being considered - A and B traversing opposite sides
of a circle - involves NO gravitational fields - BUT A and B
would HAVE TO PRESUME the existence of such a field in their
reference frame if they are to reconcile a force they're
experiencing with their assumption that they are static (a
totally valid assumption, in Relativity terms).</font></div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#000080"><font size="2"><font face="Arial">As said
above, even if both, A and B, attribute the force of
acceleration to gravity, they are in error; and it does anyway
not help the situation. For your consideration they need a
gravitational field for dilation, but this does not exist, and
acceleration does not replace it.</font></font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0C943D193FFC4E568685FEB833FA0E59@vincent">
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Resolution of
this (apparent) paradox, as I said before, rests on A (and
likewise B) considering themselves to have been subject to a
gravitational field - and experiment shows us that
gravitational fields slow time - so their own clock will have
slowed as well as the others. So they will both expect their
clocks to be synchronised on re-meeting.</font></div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#000080"><font size="2"><font face="Arial">That is
anyway true also in the absence of dilation.</font></font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0C943D193FFC4E568685FEB833FA0E59@vincent">
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">As I say, this is
where Relativity begins to become unravelled: A and B will
either each have to acknowledge that they are NOT in fact
static, or they will have to invent a convincing explanation
for a gravitational effect in the absence of any 'ponderous
mass' (to use Einstein's term). But given that,
synchronisation of clocks is not an issue - as long as we
allow A and B to each presume existence of a gravitational
field in their frame (which, as you say, takes it into the
sphere of GR).</font></div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#000080"><font size="2"><font face="Arial">Not
applicable as mentioned above.</font></font></font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0C943D193FFC4E568685FEB833FA0E59@vincent">
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Second point: in
your case of the travelling-twin versus the stay-at-home twin,
the traveller would again experience G-force, which they could
if they wish regard as a gravitational effect (since under
Relativity they are free to consider themselves as static).
They would therefore expect their clock (including biological
clock) to have slowed (Pound-Rebka again), and so know that
they have actually been travelling more than one year in
'objective' terms - whatever that might mean in this context.</font></div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#000080"><font size="2"><font face="Arial">The twin
travelling, B, cannot assume that he is static because he has
to notice his acceleration. And that is different from
gravity. And even if it could be identified with gravity this
would not solve the example which I have given.</font></font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0C943D193FFC4E568685FEB833FA0E59@vincent">
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">But of course the
reality is that slowing of time is NOT symmetric, it's a
consequence of motion with respect to the unique
objectively-static universal reference frame. Only
when serious scientists start asking WHY Relativity does (or
appears to do) what it does will we make any progress on this
issue.</font></div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#000080"><font size="2"><font face="Arial">Which
progress to you expect? There is no symmetry in the case where
twin B returns and so you cannot conclude anything from
symmetry.</font></font></font><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0C943D193FFC4E568685FEB833FA0E59@vincent">
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">I think we're
agreed on the key issues. Perhaps it's time to stop
discussing how a self-consistent mathematical system (which
doesn't happen to match true reality) copes with paradoxes of
its own making!</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Best regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Grahame</font></div>
</blockquote>
<font color="#000080"><font size="2"><font face="Arial">As I have
mentioned in the other mail: It is in conflict with Einstein's
relativity to compare clocks residing in different frames. The
result of any comparison depends on the motion state of the
observer. That is what Einstein says.<br>
<br>
But the other solution is to follow the Lorentzian relativity.
In that case the imagination becomes easy (in contrast to
Einstein).<br>
<br>
Greetings back<br>
Albrecht.<br>
</font></font></font>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0C943D193FFC4E568685FEB833FA0E59@vincent">
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>----- Original Message ----- </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a title="phys@a-giese.de"
href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de" moz-do-not-send="true">Albrecht
Giese</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists..natureoflightandparticles.org</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, August 27,
2017 7:48 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General]
[NEW] SRT twin Paradox</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<p>Hi Grahame,</p>
<p>without going into details of this discussion I only want to
point to the following fact:</p>
<p>Whereas you are of course right that the twin situation is
not a paradox but logically clean, what we all as I think have
sufficiently discussed here, the following is not correct in
my view:</p>
<p>The twin situation has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with gravity.</p>
<p>Two arguments for this:</p>
<p>o The so called twin paradox is purely Special Relativity.
Gravity on the other hand, is General Relativity. This is the
formal point.</p>
<p>o From practical numbers it is visible that gravity cannot
be an explanation. Take the usual example saying that one twin
stays at home and the other one travels - as seen from the
twin at home - for twenty years away and then twenty years
back. From the view of the twin at home, at the other ones
return 40 years have gone. For the travelling twin only one
year has gone (This case is theoretically possible if the
proper speed is taken, about 0.9997c)). Then the travelling
twin would have saved 39 years of life time. Now look at the
possible influence of gravity: Assume it takes the travelling
twin a year to change his speed from almost c to almost - c ,
then, even if the speed of proper time would decrease to zero,
he would have saved only one year. But, in this example, he
has saved 39 years. How could this work? No one in physics
assumes that proper time can run inversely. So this is no
possible explanation.</p>
<p>How is it explained? I do not want to repeat again and again
the correct (but a bit lengthy) explanation, but I attempt to
give a short version: In Einstein's relativity the run of time
in different frames can logically not be continuously
compared, it can only be compared at interaction points where
two clocks (or whatever) are at the same position. And the
determination of the situation at such common position has to
be done by the Lorentz transformation. And this determination
works, as many times said here, without logical conflicts.</p>
<p>If you solve this problem using the Lorentzian SRT, then the
result is the same but the argument is different, more
physics-related, and also better for the imagination. If
wanted, I can of course explain it.</p>
<p>Albrecht<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.08.2017 um 01:13 schrieb Dr
Grahame Blackwell:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CCE2F4D7ECF5430E943629241B634443@vincent"
type="cite">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23588">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">I'm sorry
Wolf, but it seems that you're still not getting it.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">This
situation can be explained fully logically WITHOUT either
twin making any assumptions about SR or GR - simply from
their own observations and from well-proven experimental
findings.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">If we label
the twins A and B, then their situations are effectively
symmetric* - so we'll consider the scenario from the
viewpoint of twin A.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">A considers
him/herself static, and all motion to be attributable to
twin B. So - and this agrees with experimental
observation of clocks at high speed (in planes and in GPS
satellites) - twin A will observe twin B's clock running
slow, if A's own clock is not upset by any effect.
HOWEVER, since A is actually travelling in circular
motion, (s)he will experience a centripetal force;
assuming him/herself to be static, this will necessarily
be attributed to gravitational effects - and it's well
known from experiment (Pound-Rebka and successors) that
gravitational fields cause time dilation - so A will
expect their own clock to be running more slowly also due
to that 'gravitational' effect (note that this is not any
assumption of SR or GR, simply inference from proven
experimental results) [and so also A's observation of B's
clock, measured against A's own clock, will not fit the
standard SR time-dilation model, for reasons that A will
fully comprehend]. For A, the cumulative time-dilation
for B's perceived relative speed and for A's own perceived
'gravitational' effect exactly balance - so A will fully
expect both clocks to coincide when the twins meet again
(as B will also).</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">No paradox.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">* It needs to
be said that further study of causation of 'relativistic
time dilation' leads to the understanding that this is an
objective effect due to travelling at speed relative to
the unique objectively-static universal reference frame.
So if the centre of the circle traced out by A and B is
itself in motion relative to that reference frame then it
cannot be assumed that A's and B's motions will be
symmetric; in that case their clocks may well not
be precisely synchronised on their meeting again. This is
an observation relating to physical reality, which in no
way contradicts the self-consistency of SR (or GR) as a
mathematical system.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Best regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Grahame</font></div>
<div> </div>
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