<html dir="ltr">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=gb2312">
<style type="text/css" id="owaParaStyle">P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}</style>
</head>
<body class="" style="word-wrap:break-word" fpstyle="1" ocsi="0">
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;">Hi Richard,<br>
<br>
I think this is in putting the cart before the horse. Worse even, since cart and horse are in perpendicular directions. Perhaps putting the horse in the cart and then trying to drag the cart up the hill ...<br>
<br>
I think you are starting from entirely the wrong place. The gamma factor is NOT fundamental. You are on a very sticky wicket using gamma w.r.t. light as it becomes, quite literally, undefined. It is not as simple as the elementary textbooks on relativity would
have you believe - as has been discussed before. Al put it nicely recently. These guys use several contradictory analogies, sometimes on the same page. A lot of popular textbook writers seem to be struggling with some of the basics themselves.<br>
<br>
The fundamental relationship, defining length and time, arises from the total energy. E = h nu = hbar omega.
<br>
<br>
Gamma comes as a result of this. It is, for a confined photon, the AVERAGE of the increase of the energy with the motion (blue shift) and that opposed to the motion (red shift). If you shift to an apparent local frame, where the to and fro is at the same energy,
frequency and wavelength (this is the definition of a "rest" frame) then everything, locally, looks the same however much one may or may not have been wound up in the past. The increase in mass/energy from object moving in a frame relative to you, the observer,
comes about because of the simple fact that there is a lot more "room" in energy to blueshift from 1 to infinity than there is to redshift from 1 to zero. They see you just as wound up as you see them. For the mathematical derivation of gamma itself in these
terms see my SPIE papers. It is just an average. It is not fundamental at all. Not a bit. Einstein did not start with gamma, he derived it. It is not a "law of nature". It is just a derivative of energy conservation (definitely a law of nature) and field linearity
(good chance this is a law of nature). In terms of space and time gamma is then that factor you need to get linearity of energy (energy conservation!) AND of field (Chandra's NIW) in ALL local spaces.<br>
<br>
E = h nu = hbar omega. This is the only thing that defines "radii" "wavelengths" and all the rest of it. It is not a weird equation with vsquared and csquareds in it, it is a simple proportionality of frequency, energy and wavelength - valid in ANY frame. Change
frame, all that changes is the local size of your rulers and clocks. Now you may know your local rulers and clocks are being wound up (feel the force!), but if you happened to be asleep, unconscious or very forgetful, or if the "force" happened in greatgrandaddys
time and he forgot to document it you would not know. Then your measurement with your short rulers and fast clocks would yield no local differences to what you got before with the longer ones. If you and another forgetful lot zipped past each other at nearly
the speed of light the whole lot of you would be ignorant as to the proper history, as we all are.<br>
<br>
The short and the long of it is you should not be looking at gamma (or Gamma^2), as in doing so you have already fooled yourself. You are not starting from the root.<br>
<br>
Regards, John<br>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRpF826671" style="direction: ltr;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of Richard Gauthier [richgauthier@gmail.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 28, 2017 4:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] "All motion is relative"<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div class="">Hi Chip and Viv,</div>
<div class=""> We come back to the question of the theoretical relationship of the radius of the helical trajectory of the photon forming the relativistic electron in our various light-speed helically-trajectory electron models. You two I believe think that
this helical radius decreases as 1/gamma, Grahame thinks that this helical radius is independent of gamma, and I think it decreases as 1/gamma^2 (taking into account the increase of the circulating photon-like object¡¯s frequency with the relativistic electron¡¯s
energy: E=gamma mc^2 = hf. In practice my internally superluminal relativistic electron model (including the superluminal quantum forming a spin-1/2 charged photon that forms the electron, and having its own helical radius of Lambda/4pi) also produces a net
decrease in the total radius of the relativistic electron model as 1/gamma instead of 1/gamma^2, like both of your models (and which is also consistent with experiment as I understand from what John W has said previously and what high-energy electron scattering
experiments around 30 Gev imply, which Viv refers to.</div>
<div class=""> with best regards,</div>
<div class=""> Richard</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Aug 27, 2017, at 6:44 PM, Viv Robinson <<a href="mailto:viv@universephysics.com" class="" target="_blank">viv@universephysics.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; margin:0px">
<div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin:0px">Hi Chip,</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin:0px"><br class="">
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin:0px">Yes! That is why electrons are detected as point particles when accelerated to high voltages (rad < 10^-18 m), yet behave as extended particles (rad ¡Ö 1.93 x 10^-13 m) at rest. IMHO, the diameter follows
the SRT correction gamma. It can be tested experimentally. To the best of my knowledge that experiment has not been performed at intermediate energies, keV to MeV.</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin:0px"><br class="">
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin:0px">Cheers,</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin:0px"><br class="">
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin:0px">Vivian Robinson</div>
<br class="">
<div id="bloop_sign_1503883916106193152" class="bloop_sign"></div>
<br class="">
</div>
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div id="bloop_sign_1503884613106584064" class="bloop_sign" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
</div>
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<p class="airmail_on" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
On 27 August 2017 at 12:38:11 PM, Chip Akins (<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" target="_blank">chipakins@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<span class="">
<div class="" lang="EN-US">
<div class=""></div>
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="">Hi Vivian</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="">Questions. Do you feel that when you add energy to an electron it causes its frequency to increase so that E=hv? If so, then do you believe that accelerating an electron causes this same effect? And if so, do believe
that a relativistic electron has a smaller spin (action) radius than an electron at ¡°rest¡±?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="">Chip</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style=""> </span></p>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="border-style:solid none none; border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225); border-top-width:1pt; padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Viv Robinson<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, August 26, 2017 8:16 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Albrecht Giese <<a href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de" class="" target="_blank">phys@a-giese.de</a>>; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] STR twin Paradox</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div class="">
<div id="bloop_customfont" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Dear All,</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">On more than one occasion I have indicated that the best way of solving a problem is to state the scientific or physics principle upon which your point of view is based and then use mathematics to determine the magnitude of that principle¡¯s
effect. This is still the best method of getting a point of view across. However this ¡°twin paradox¡± debate continues on opinion alone. Participants seem more interested in expressing a view to prove their point than demonstrating it scientifically with physics
and calculations. Central to many participants viewpoint is that Einstein¡¯s special relativity theory sin error.</p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Those holding that view should at least give an experimental result that doesn¡¯t match an SRT prediction. I would remind participants that SRT (and sometimes general relativity theory) calculations give us highly accurate global positioning
systems. If you believe the SRT calculations are in error, state an example.</p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">The "twin paradox¡± is often started as one example.It is here that I refer to Chip¡¯s two space craft with beeping lasers. So Chip, let us consider the whole situation. One space craft is launched from Earth, another from a planet in a neighboring
star system. Both use a universal frequency and send beeps, same or different period, it doesn¡¯t matter. They have spent years traversing deep space. Separate violent events sends both off course and no way of knowing where they were when they regained control
of their craft. By a strange co-incidence they find themselves detecting each other¡¯s signals. They approach each other with no way of knowing their position or actual speeds. </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">They soon determine their relative speeds and their clocks are synchronized. They approach each other. At their closest approach they exchange time information. Chip, I believe that is a situation you propose. Allowing for Doppler effects,
when they exchange times. Space craft A will detect its clock as being slower than space craft B. Space craft B will detect its time as faster than A. This indicates space craft A is going faster than space craft B. Perhaps you could take that as an indication
that there is an absolute reference against which all speeds are measured. Not so!</p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">The stars in our neighboring region of the galaxy are in a reasonably fixed positions wrt each other. Planets revolving around their habitat zone would have approximately the same speed. In effect both space craft would head out from objects
that have approximately constant separation distance from each other. That is they are at relative rest wrt each other. Both can be considered as starting from the zero velocity wrt each other. Even though both crews have lost all knowledge of their whereabouts
in relation to their origins, the space craft have been subjected to all the relativity corrections wrt speed from their origins. Because their origin velocities were approximately the same, their reference is approximately the same. Therefore they would know
which was traveling the faster from their origin point and hence wrt each other compared to their starting velocities. </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">The only variation to this is if both space crafts were traveling at approximately the same speed from their origin and their measuring equipment was super accurate. In that case, by referencing their positions and velocities wrt the background
stars, they would be able to work out which space craft emerged from the deeper gravitational potential and possibly the speed difference at launch. Earth¡¯s general relativity correction is about 10^-8. </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">In short, there is never any twin paradox because both twins were originally at the same place and time. The internal SRT corrections will always be adjusted to that reference. Likewise there is no time paradox for independent travelers
because their origins were almost at rest wrt each other. If you managed to get intergalactic travelers from hundreds of millions of light years away you could get an additional redshift imposed upon the relatively velocities. I don¡¯t intend to work out how
to calculate that effect because I consider it an unlikely situation during my lifetime.</p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">So what is the physical reason for that? IMHO it is that the SRT corrections are due to the rotating or toroidal photon structure of matter. In other words, it is an inherent property of matter. It is not a property of space. If it were
a property of space then all corrections would be referenced to a single point in space. If that were the case, that single point would be close to the Earth¡¯s centre because SRT calculations are required to get accurate navigation information. </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">At the risk of sounding repetitive, If you want people to follow your logic, give the physics behind it and back it up with mathematical calculations. Not everything in standard model physics is wrong. That some people don¡¯t understand
Einstein¡¯s calculations doesn¡¯t make them wrong. They are wrong when they don¡¯t match observation. Using some small effect with questionable interpretation is not a sound foundation to dismantle an otherwise working theory.</p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,</p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Vivian Robinson</p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="airmailon">On 26 August 2017 at 12:49:20 AM, Albrecht Giese (<a href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de" class="" target="_blank">phys@a-giese.de</a>) wrote:</p>
<blockquote class="" style="margin-top:5pt; margin-bottom:5pt">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">Dear John W and Grahame,</p>
<p class="">I think that I should explain a bit about this discussion between Wolf and myself. Why this discussion is as it is.</p>
<p class="">I find the topic of Wolf about conciousness very interesting and very important. So I have continued with this discussion. But, unfortunately in my view, Wolf is basing his thoughts on a wrong understanding of relativity. The finds that this "incorrect"
theory 'SRT' is an indication of our human failure to understand physics and so of our misleading consciousness. - But not SRT is incorrect (as some of you have already and repeatedly written) but Wolf's understanding is wrong. - I am trying to give Wolf a
correct understanding as a precondition for a successful development of the issue of consciousness. I see that this may be boring for those who have understood relativity. But what else can we do to get ahead?</p>
<p class="">Any ideas?<br class="">
<br class="">
Albrecht</p>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Am 24.08.2017 um 11:35 schrieb Dr Grahame Blackwell:</p>
</div>
<blockquote class="" style="margin-top:5pt; margin-bottom:5pt">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Very well put, John - I totally agree.</span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Both Albrecht and Wolf are addressing important points - but they are quite different points.</span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">It's absolutely true that Albrecht has the right of it within the context of the sort of stuff that this forum is primarily about. But by the same token, Wolf
is raising significant points, points that just don't really happen to fit with the main substance of this group 'discussion'.</span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Wolf, I find your input fascinating, many times I've wanted to exclain "Yes!" - but it tends too much to take us away from the physical-realm based stuff that
really needs to be pinned down if physics is to progress at that level. The consciousness issue also needs (very importantly) to be addressed - I believe our progress will be severely limited until/unless we DO address it - but as quite a different topic.
(Maybe we need a separate discussion group...)</span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Thanks, John, for drawing that very helpful distinction.</span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:navy">Grahame</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote class="" style="border-style:none none none solid; border-left-color:navy; border-left-width:1.5pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt; margin:5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif">----- Original Message -----<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color:rgb(228,228,228)"><b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk" title="John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk" class="" target="_blank">John
Williamson</a></span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif">To:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" target="_blank">Nature
of Light and Particles - General Discussion</a></span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Cc:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" title="martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" class="" target="_blank">Mark,
Martin van der</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:piet.delaney.2@gmail.com" title="piet.delaney.2@gmail.com" class="" target="_blank">Pete Delaney</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:d.e.a.eggenschwiler@gmail.com" title="d.e.a.eggenschwiler@gmail.com" class="" target="_blank">Darren
Eggenschwiler</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:innesdmorrison@gmail.com" title="innesdmorrison@gmail.com" class="" target="_blank">Innes Morrison</a></span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Sent:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, August 24, 2017 8:47
AM</span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Subject:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] STR twin Paradox</span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Times,serif" lang="EN-GB">Dear Wolf and Albrecht.</span><span class="" style=""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Times,serif" lang="EN-GB">Please forgive me if I am wrong, and you are both really communicating deeply, but I do not think the two of you are really communicating at all on any meaningful
level.</span><span class="" style=""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Times,serif">Albrecht, you do not seem to get what Wolf is talking about at all, and keep trying to draw him back to the limited grounds of SR, which is quite irrelevant to most of what
he is trying to say. On another forum his approach would be taken to be the majority view.</span><span class="" style=""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Times,serif" lang="EN-GB">Wolf, you should not be trying to go onto the grounds of the argument with SR as this is not what you are about. You are going to lose on those grounds as SR is
perfectly self-consistent and does describe the physics of synchrotrons perfectly. Albrecht is right: otherwise they would not work. This is not to say that SR is in any way the whole story. It is not, as is being discussed in some of the other threads.</span><span class="" style="font-size:10pt"> </span><span class="" style=""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Times,serif" lang="EN-GB">This whole back and forth has become a prime example of both of you making up what you think the other is talking about and then arguing with that instead of conducting
a proper discussion with each other. You are both arguing, effectively, with yourself. This is not necessarily a bad thing, of course, as one or both of you may come to the realisation that you have something to learn and that is always a good thing. It has
become pretty tiring for an outside observer though.</span><span class="" style=""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Times,serif" lang="EN-GB">Regards, John.</span><span class="" style=""></span></p>
<div class="">
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span class="" style="">
<hr class="" size="2" align="center" width="100%">
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</p>
<pre class="">_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre class="">If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de" class="" target="_blank">phys@a-giese.de</a></pre>
<pre class=""><a href=<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/phys%40a-giese.de?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" class="" target="_blank">"http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/phys%40a-giese.de?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"</a>></pre>
<pre class="">Click here to unsubscribe</pre>
<pre class=""></a></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:viv@universephysics.com" class="" target="_blank">viv@universephysics.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<a href="<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/viv%40universephysics.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" class="" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/viv%40universephysics.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a>"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
Click here to unsubscribe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</span></blockquote>
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; float:none; display:inline!important">_______________________________________________</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; float:none; display:inline!important">If
you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; float:none; display:inline!important"><a
href="</span><a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1</a><span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; float:none; display:inline!important">"></span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; float:none; display:inline!important">Click
here to unsubscribe</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; float:none; display:inline!important"></a></span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>