<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Hello John (and all),</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> Thanks for your explanations. Yes, I agree that gamma is not fundamental the way conservation of energy and conservation or momentum are fundamental. You say that gamma is derived as a kind of average between the blue shift and the red shift of a relativistic confined photon. But the observed frequency in the relativistic Doppler frequency shift of a photon from a moving light source is itself derived using the time dilation formula to=t/gamma (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_Doppler_effect" class="">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_Doppler_effect</a>) . Without reference to photons, energy or momentum conservation, gamma is derived theoretically (by simple geometry) for predicted relativistic time dilation in different inertial frames assuming a constant speed of light in all inertial frames, such as in the light-clock thought experiment. And gamma has been experimentally confirmed in time dilation experiments such as muon decay by cosmic-ray-produced muons in the atmosphere, and particularly from muons moving at relativistic speeds in a synchrotron (of course you know all this). But my point is that gamma, though not a fundamental quantity, is a perfectly good and useful quantity for relativistic expressions like time dilation and relativistic electron radius models, particularly if using gamma helps to make valid predictions such as time dilation in muon decay and upper limits of electron size (around 10^-18 m) in high energy electron scattering experiments.</div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 27, 2017, at 9:17 PM, John Williamson <<a href="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk" class="">John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; direction: ltr; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Hi Richard,<br class=""><br class="">I think this is in putting the cart before the horse. Worse even, since cart and horse are in perpendicular directions. Perhaps putting the horse in the cart and then trying to drag the cart up the hill ...<br class=""><br class="">I think you are starting from entirely the wrong place. The gamma factor is NOT fundamental. You are on a very sticky wicket using gamma w.r.t. light as it becomes, quite literally, undefined. It is not as simple as the elementary textbooks on relativity would have you believe - as has been discussed before. Al put it nicely recently. These guys use several contradictory analogies, sometimes on the same page. A lot of popular textbook writers seem to be struggling with some of the basics themselves.<br class=""><br class="">The fundamental relationship, defining length and time, arises from the total energy. E = h nu = hbar omega.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">Gamma comes as a result of this. It is, for a confined photon, the AVERAGE of the increase of the energy with the motion (blue shift) and that opposed to the motion (red shift). If you shift to an apparent local frame, where the to and fro is at the same energy, frequency and wavelength (this is the definition of a "rest" frame) then everything, locally, looks the same however much one may or may not have been wound up in the past. The increase in mass/energy from object moving in a frame relative to you, the observer, comes about because of the simple fact that there is a lot more "room" in energy to blueshift from 1 to infinity than there is to redshift from 1 to zero. They see you just as wound up as you see them. For the mathematical derivation of gamma itself in these terms see my SPIE papers. It is just an average. It is not fundamental at all. Not a bit. Einstein did not start with gamma, he derived it. It is not a "law of nature". It is just a derivative of energy conservation (definitely a law of nature) and field linearity (good chance this is a law of nature). In terms of space and time gamma is then that factor you need to get linearity of energy (energy conservation!) AND of field (Chandra's NIW) in ALL local spaces.<br class=""><br class="">E = h nu = hbar omega. This is the only thing that defines "radii" "wavelengths" and all the rest of it. It is not a weird equation with vsquared and csquareds in it, it is a simple proportionality of frequency, energy and wavelength - valid in ANY frame. Change frame, all that changes is the local size of your rulers and clocks. Now you may know your local rulers and clocks are being wound up (feel the force!), but if you happened to be asleep, unconscious or very forgetful, or if the "force" happened in greatgrandaddys time and he forgot to document it you would not know. Then your measurement with your short rulers and fast clocks would yield no local differences to what you got before with the longer ones. If you and another forgetful lot zipped past each other at nearly the speed of light the whole lot of you would be ignorant as to the proper history, as we all are.<br class=""><br class="">The short and the long of it is you should not be looking at gamma (or Gamma^2), as in doing so you have already fooled yourself. You are not starting from the root.<br class=""><br class="">Regards, John<br class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 16px;" class=""><hr tabindex="-1" class=""><div id="divRpF826671" style="direction: ltr;" class=""><font size="2" face="Tahoma" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] on behalf of Richard Gauthier [<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class="">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>]<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, August 28, 2017 4:17 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] "All motion is relative"<br class=""></font><br class=""></div><div class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">Hi Chip and Viv,</div><div class=""> We come back to the question of the theoretical relationship of the radius of the helical trajectory of the photon forming the relativistic electron in our various light-speed helically-trajectory electron models. You two I believe think that this helical radius decreases as 1/gamma, Grahame thinks that this helical radius is independent of gamma, and I think it decreases as 1/gamma^2 (taking into account the increase of the circulating photon-like object’s frequency with the relativistic electron’s energy: E=gamma mc^2 = hf. In practice my internally superluminal relativistic electron model (including the superluminal quantum forming a spin-1/2 charged photon that forms the electron, and having its own helical radius of Lambda/4pi) also produces a net decrease in the total radius of the relativistic electron model as 1/gamma instead of 1/gamma^2, like both of your models (and which is also consistent with experiment as I understand from what John W has said previously and what high-energy electron scattering experiments around 30 Gev imply, which Viv refers to.</div><div class=""> with best regards,</div><div class=""> Richard</div><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 27, 2017, at 6:44 PM, Viv Robinson <<a href="mailto:viv@universephysics.com" class="" target="_blank">viv@universephysics.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; margin: 0px;"><div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin: 0px;">Hi Chip,</div><div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin: 0px;">Yes! That is why electrons are detected as point particles when accelerated to high voltages (rad < 10^-18 m), yet behave as extended particles (rad ≈ 1.93 x 10^-13 m) at rest. IMHO, the diameter follows the SRT correction gamma. It can be tested experimentally. To the best of my knowledge that experiment has not been performed at intermediate energies, keV to MeV.</div><div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin: 0px;">Cheers,</div><div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div id="bloop_customfont" class="" style="margin: 0px;">Vivian Robinson</div><br class=""><div id="bloop_sign_1503883916106193152" class="bloop_sign"></div><br class=""></div><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;"><div id="bloop_sign_1503884613106584064" class="bloop_sign" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;"></div><br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;" class="">On 27 August 2017 at 12:38:11 PM, Chip Akins (<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" class="" target="_blank">chipakins@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;"><span class=""><div class="" lang="EN-US"><div class=""></div><div class=""><div class="WordSection1"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="">Hi Vivian</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span class=""> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="">Questions. Do you feel that when you add energy to an electron it causes its frequency to increase so that E=hv? If so, then do you believe that accelerating an electron causes this same effect? And if so, do believe that a relativistic electron has a smaller spin (action) radius than an electron at “rest”?</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span class=""> </span></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="">Chip</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span class=""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span class=""> </span></p><div class=""><div class="" style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><b class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Viv Robinson<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, August 26, 2017 8:16 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Albrecht Giese <<a href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de" class="" target="_blank">phys@a-giese.de</a>>; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] STR twin Paradox</span></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p><div class=""><div id="bloop_customfont" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">Dear All,</span></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">On more than one occasion I have indicated that the best way of solving a problem is to state the scientific or physics principle upon which your point of view is based and then use mathematics to determine the magnitude of that principle’s effect. This is still the best method of getting a point of view across. However this “twin paradox” debate continues on opinion alone. Participants seem more interested in expressing a view to prove their point than demonstrating it scientifically with physics and calculations. Central to many participants viewpoint is that Einstein’s special relativity theory sin error.</div></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Those holding that view should at least give an experimental result that doesn’t match an SRT prediction. I would remind participants that SRT (and sometimes general relativity theory) calculations give us highly accurate global positioning systems. If you believe the SRT calculations are in error, state an example.</div></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">The "twin paradox” is often started as one example.It is here that I refer to Chip’s two space craft with beeping lasers. So Chip, let us consider the whole situation. One space craft is launched from Earth, another from a planet in a neighboring star system. Both use a universal frequency and send beeps, same or different period, it doesn’t matter. They have spent years traversing deep space. Separate violent events sends both off course and no way of knowing where they were when they regained control of their craft. By a strange co-incidence they find themselves detecting each other’s signals. They approach each other with no way of knowing their position or actual speeds. </div></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">They soon determine their relative speeds and their clocks are synchronized. They approach each other. At their closest approach they exchange time information. Chip, I believe that is a situation you propose. Allowing for Doppler effects, when they exchange times. Space craft A will detect its clock as being slower than space craft B. Space craft B will detect its time as faster than A. This indicates space craft A is going faster than space craft B. Perhaps you could take that as an indication that there is an absolute reference against which all speeds are measured. Not so!</div></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">The stars in our neighboring region of the galaxy are in a reasonably fixed positions wrt each other. Planets revolving around their habitat zone would have approximately the same speed. In effect both space craft would head out from objects that have approximately constant separation distance from each other. That is they are at relative rest wrt each other. Both can be considered as starting from the zero velocity wrt each other. Even though both crews have lost all knowledge of their whereabouts in relation to their origins, the space craft have been subjected to all the relativity corrections wrt speed from their origins. Because their origin velocities were approximately the same, their reference is approximately the same. Therefore they would know which was traveling the faster from their origin point and hence wrt each other compared to their starting velocities. </div></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">The only variation to this is if both space crafts were traveling at approximately the same speed from their origin and their measuring equipment was super accurate. In that case, by referencing their positions and velocities wrt the background stars, they would be able to work out which space craft emerged from the deeper gravitational potential and possibly the speed difference at launch. Earth’s general relativity correction is about 10^-8. </div></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">In short, there is never any twin paradox because both twins were originally at the same place and time. The internal SRT corrections will always be adjusted to that reference. Likewise there is no time paradox for independent travelers because their origins were almost at rest wrt each other. If you managed to get intergalactic travelers from hundreds of millions of light years away you could get an additional redshift imposed upon the relatively velocities. I don’t intend to work out how to calculate that effect because I consider it an unlikely situation during my lifetime.</div></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">So what is the physical reason for that? IMHO it is that the SRT corrections are due to the rotating or toroidal photon structure of matter. In other words, it is an inherent property of matter. It is not a property of space. If it were a property of space then all corrections would be referenced to a single point in space. If that were the case, that single point would be close to the Earth’s centre because SRT calculations are required to get accurate navigation information. </div></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">At the risk of sounding repetitive, If you want people to follow your logic, give the physics behind it and back it up with mathematical calculations. Not everything in standard model physics is wrong. That some people don’t understand Einstein’s calculations doesn’t make them wrong. They are wrong when they don’t match observation. Using some small effect with questionable interpretation is not a sound foundation to dismantle an otherwise working theory.</div></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Cheers,</div></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Vivian Robinson</div></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div id="bloop_sign_1503699575355990784" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">On 26 August 2017 at 12:49:20 AM, Albrecht Giese (<a href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de" class="" target="_blank">phys@a-giese.de</a>) wrote:</div><blockquote class="" style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Dear John W and Grahame,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">I think that I should explain a bit about this discussion between Wolf and myself. Why this discussion is as it is.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">I find the topic of Wolf about conciousness very interesting and very important. So I have continued with this discussion. But, unfortunately in my view, Wolf is basing his thoughts on a wrong understanding of relativity. The finds that this "incorrect" theory 'SRT' is an indication of our human failure to understand physics and so of our misleading consciousness. - But not SRT is incorrect (as some of you have already and repeatedly written) but Wolf's understanding is wrong. - I am trying to give Wolf a correct understanding as a precondition for a successful development of the issue of consciousness. I see that this may be boring for those who have understood relativity. But what else can we do to get ahead?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Any ideas?<br class=""><br class="">Albrecht</div><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">Am 24.08.2017 um 11:35 schrieb Dr Grahame Blackwell:</div></div><blockquote class="" style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy;">Very well put, John - I totally agree.</span></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy;">Both Albrecht and Wolf are addressing important points - but they are quite different points.</span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy;">It's absolutely true that Albrecht has the right of it within the context of the sort of stuff that this forum is primarily about. But by the same token, Wolf is raising significant points, points that just don't really happen to fit with the main substance of this group 'discussion'.</span></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy;">Wolf, I find your input fascinating, many times I've wanted to exclain "Yes!" - but it tends too much to take us away from the physical-realm based stuff that really needs to be pinned down if physics is to progress at that level. The consciousness issue also needs (very importantly) to be addressed - I believe our progress will be severely limited until/unless we DO address it - but as quite a different topic. (Maybe we need a separate discussion group...)</span></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy;">Thanks, John, for drawing that very helpful distinction.</span></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy;">Grahame</span></div></div><blockquote class="" style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: navy; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt;"><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">----- Original Message -----<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228);" class=""><b class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk" title="John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk" class="" target="_blank">John Williamson</a></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><b class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">To:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class="" target="_blank">Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion</a></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><b class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Cc:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" title="martin.van.der.mark@philips.com" class="" target="_blank">Mark, Martin van der</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:piet.delaney.2@gmail.com" title="piet.delaney.2@gmail.com" class="" target="_blank">Pete Delaney</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:d.e.a.eggenschwiler@gmail.com" title="d.e.a.eggenschwiler@gmail.com" class="" target="_blank">Darren Eggenschwiler</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:innesdmorrison@gmail.com" title="innesdmorrison@gmail.com" class="" target="_blank">Innes Morrison</a></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><b class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Sent:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, August 24, 2017 8:47 AM</span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><b class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Subject:</span></b><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] STR twin Paradox</span></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> </p></div><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Times, serif;">Dear Wolf and Albrecht.</span><span class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Times, serif;">Please forgive me if I am wrong, and you are both really communicating deeply, but I do not think the two of you are really communicating at all on any meaningful level.</span><span class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Times, serif;">Albrecht, you do not seem to get what Wolf is talking about at all, and keep trying to draw him back to the limited grounds of SR, which is quite irrelevant to most of what he is trying to say. On another forum his approach would be taken to be the majority view.</span><span class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Times, serif;">Wolf, you should not be trying to go onto the grounds of the argument with SR as this is not what you are about. You are going to lose on those grounds as SR is perfectly self-consistent and does describe the physics of synchrotrons perfectly. Albrecht is right: otherwise they would not work. This is not to say that SR is in any way the whole story. It is not, as is being discussed in some of the other threads.</span><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span><span class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Times, serif;">This whole back and forth has become a prime example of both of you making up what you think the other is talking about and then arguing with that instead of conducting a proper discussion with each other. You are both arguing, effectively, with yourself. This is not necessarily a bad thing, of course, as one or both of you may come to the realisation that you have something to learn and that is always a good thing. It has become pretty tiring for an outside observer though.</span><span class=""></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><span class="" lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Times, serif;">Regards, John.</span><span class=""></span></div><div class=""><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center;"><span class=""><hr class="" size="2" align="center" width="100%"></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""></div><pre class="">_______________________________________________</pre><pre class="">If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de" class="" target="_blank">phys@a-giese.de</a></pre><pre class=""><a href=<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/phys%40a-giese.de?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" class="" target="_blank">"http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/phys%40a-giese.de?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"</a>></pre><pre class="">Click here to unsubscribe</pre><pre class=""></a></pre></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; 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