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<p>Albrecht:</p>
<p>I originally started this question because I tried to show that
Einsteins SRT was wrong and then go on to propose some fixes. What
I ran into was the comment that I did not understand SRT.
Conclusion to date is that there apear to be many interpretations
and fixes to what Einstein said and how his theory has be
reinterpreted and updated. It is simply no good talking further
unless one specifies which SRT one is taking about.</p>
<p>My last E-mail to Graham included a quote from Einstein's
original paper which clearly stated that a clock moving around a
closed circuit would lose time. if I read the 1905 paper further
the example Einstein uses is to compare a clock on the equator
with one on the pole claiming the equilateral clock will run
slower. This statement even shows that Einstein had no qualms
about including an accelerated reference frame. Until the ground
rules as to what interpretation of SRT one is talking about I
think it is not worth going on.</p>
<p>I would much rather continue the diussion along the Synchotron
lines. That is why I i said "New" <br>
</p>
<p>To respond to your comment empty space is flat it does not matter
how far away you are from local masses you are surrounded by
masses and that introduces symmetric forces that determine the
gravitational potential, speed of EM interactions, the speed of
light , and clock rates.</p>
<p>Einsteins GRT has gamma dependent on the gravitatinal potential ,
and obviously there are stars surrounding us so gravity determins
the property of intergalactiv space.</p>
<p>If you do not agree with this tell me why?</p>
<p>best wishes</p>
<p>Wolf<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/30/2017 12:20 PM, Albrecht Giese
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0a4d3d37-a8d6-e1f2-30f4-9dba907f5f76@a-giese.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p>Wolf,</p>
<p>the original twin "paradox" we are discussing here is meant to
go on in a space where there is no gravity. If there is gravity
it will not change a lot but makes the logic unnecessary
complicated. So let's take the original version.</p>
<p>If both twins are passing each other, every one will see the
other one at the same speed. This is a simple consequence of
symmetry. <br>
</p>
<p>But your equation for time (below) is not correct but
simplified in an unacceptable way. The correct equation is <br>
</p>
<p>t' = (t-xv/c<sup>2</sup>)* (1-c<sup>2</sup>/v<sup>2</sup>)<sup>-1/2</sup></p>
<p>which also accounts for the synchronization problem. <br>
</p>
<p>Albrecht<br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 29.08.2017 um 06:09 schrieb
Wolfgang Baer:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:63539392-dcc0-067c-1f92-ccbc5b086419@nascentinc.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<p>Graham:</p>
<p>I do not see any misunderstanding except perhaps a semantic
one - there is no paradox whether the clock rate is deduced
from a knowledge of GRT or from well known experiments is not
a distinction I think worth arguing about. The point is that
given a broader knoweledge of physics that what Einstein
explained in hie seminal 1905 paper there is no paradox. I
agree. <br>
</p>
<p>Albrecht:</p>
<p>I just cannot grasp how you can say gravity has nothing to do
with it. If two twins pass each other with a relative velocity
would not the straight forward application of the Lorenz
transformations result that both twins conclude the other twin
is going more slowly than ones own. This is what Einstein
and every elementary text on SRT calculates t' = t (1-c<sup>2</sup>/v<sup>2</sup>)<sup>-1/2</sup><br>
</p>
<p>I'm not taking about anyting more, no additional
understanding about clock rates from experiments or GRT, just
the time dilation relationship<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/27/2017 11:48 AM, Albrecht
Giese wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:f6321326-fb9e-ec43-d479-a1202e8c1bfe@a-giese.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<p>Hi Grahame,</p>
<p>without going into details of this discussion I only want
to point to the following fact:</p>
<p>Whereas you are of course right that the twin situation is
not a paradox but logically clean, what we all as I think
have sufficiently discussed here, the following is not
correct in my view:</p>
<p>The twin situation has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with
gravity.</p>
<p>Two arguments for this:</p>
<p>o The so called twin paradox is purely Special
Relativity. Gravity on the other hand, is General
Relativity. This is the formal point.</p>
<p>o From practical numbers it is visible that gravity cannot
be an explanation. Take the usual example saying that one
twin stays at home and the other one travels - as seen from
the twin at home - for twenty years away and then twenty
years back. From the view of the twin at home, at the other
ones return 40 years have gone. For the travelling twin only
one year has gone (This case is theoretically possible if
the proper speed is taken, about 0.9997c)). Then the
travelling twin would have saved 39 years of life time. Now
look at the possible influence of gravity: Assume it takes
the travelling twin a year to change his speed from almost
c to almost - c , then, even if the speed of proper time
would decrease to zero, he would have saved only one year.
But, in this example, he has saved 39 years. How could this
work? No one in physics assumes that proper time can run
inversely. So this is no possible explanation.</p>
<p>How is it explained? I do not want to repeat again and
again the correct (but a bit lengthy) explanation, but I
attempt to give a short version: In Einstein's relativity
the run of time in different frames can logically not be
continuously compared, it can only be compared at
interaction points where two clocks (or whatever) are at the
same position. And the determination of the situation at
such common position has to be done by the Lorentz
transformation. And this determination works, as many times
said here, without logical conflicts.</p>
<p>If you solve this problem using the Lorentzian SRT, then
the result is the same but the argument is different, more
physics-related, and also better for the imagination. If
wanted, I can of course explain it.</p>
<p>Albrecht<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.08.2017 um 01:13 schrieb Dr
Grahame Blackwell:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CCE2F4D7ECF5430E943629241B634443@vincent">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="content-type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23588">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">I'm sorry
Wolf, but it seems that you're still not getting it.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">This
situation can be explained fully logically WITHOUT
either twin making any assumptions about SR or GR -
simply from their own observations and from well-proven
experimental findings.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">If we label
the twins A and B, then their situations are effectively
symmetric* - so we'll consider the scenario from the
viewpoint of twin A.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">A considers
him/herself static, and all motion to be attributable to
twin B. So - and this agrees with experimental
observation of clocks at high speed (in planes and in
GPS satellites) - twin A will observe twin B's clock
running slow, if A's own clock is not upset by any
effect. HOWEVER, since A is actually travelling in
circular motion, (s)he will experience a centripetal
force; assuming him/herself to be static, this will
necessarily be attributed to gravitational effects - and
it's well known from experiment (Pound-Rebka and
successors) that gravitational fields cause time
dilation - so A will expect their own clock to be
running more slowly also due to that 'gravitational'
effect (note that this is not any assumption of SR or
GR, simply inference from proven experimental results)
[and so also A's observation of B's clock, measured
against A's own clock, will not fit the standard SR
time-dilation model, for reasons that A will fully
comprehend]. For A, the cumulative time-dilation for
B's perceived relative speed and for A's own perceived
'gravitational' effect exactly balance - so A will fully
expect both clocks to coincide when the twins meet again
(as B will also).</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">No paradox.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">* It needs
to be said that further study of causation of
'relativistic time dilation' leads to the understanding
that this is an objective effect due to travelling at
speed relative to the unique objectively-static
universal reference frame. So if the centre of the
circle traced out by A and B is itself in motion
relative to that reference frame then it cannot be
assumed that A's and B's motions will be symmetric; in
that case their clocks may well not be precisely
synchronised on their meeting again. This is an
observation relating to physical reality, which in no
way contradicts the self-consistency of SR (or GR) as a
mathematical system.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Best
regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Grahame</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">=======</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
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<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4;
font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a
title="wolf@nascentinc.com"
href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Wolfgang Baer</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Nature of Light and Particles -
General Discussion</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday,
August 26, 2017 3:09 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [General]
[NEW] SRT twin Paradox</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Dear John W, Grahame nd Albrecht:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I cannot let this request for help
go unanswered: </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I do not believe we have a any
fundamental disagreement with the twin paradox. <span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>It never was
anything more than a semantic problem. If two twins
with identical and locally synchronized clocks are set
on equal circular orbits in opposite directions and
meet again and compare clocks, I believe it is an
experimental fact that the clocks will run at the same
rate (neglecting solar gravity if experiments are
conducted near earth)</p>
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</span>The appearance of a twin paradox in my opinion
is completely due to Einstein’s sloppy writing. In his
1905 paper, which I looked up, he explicitly stated
that a clock making a round trip at velocity “v” will
slow down compared with a stationary observer. The
argument that both observers applying Einstein’s
theory would NOT come to this paradoxical conclusion
is based on an interpretation by a host of well
meaning physicists of Einstein’s original paper that
suggests that each observer, knowing relativity would
use this knowledge analyze the situation as shown in
figure 1 above and therefore not expect the other
clock to slow down. As Kracklauer correctly pointed
out that there is an original SRT that had the twin
paradox people justly criticized Einstein for it and a
slightly revised SRT that explains it away is usually
not mentioned. I think we all understand this and I
have no argument with Albrecht on this point.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now however I insist that the speed
of light is NOT constant because it depends upon the
situation the material (observer material) finds
itself in a gravitational field. As long as the field
in that material is fairly homogeneous the speed of
light in that observers material is representative of
the speed of EM interactions and is constant. And
recognizing this dependency is critical to making
progress in physics by eliminating the crazy
adjustments to classical physics the wrog
interpretation of bith SRT and GRT has hoisted upon
us.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now Albrecht correctly states that
synchrotron experiments show that the speed of light
is constant and the mass is varying. </p>
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<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
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<p class=MsoNormal>ch</p>
</div>
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<![endif]></v:textbox>
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<p class=MsoNormal>Ch</p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal>~c speed of light</p>
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</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><span style="Z-INDEX: 3;
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src="cid:part5.7328B98A.2E627F5C@nascentinc.com"
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_x0000_s1045 _x0000_s1046 _x0000_s1047" class=""
height="339" width="322"></span><!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> <br>
</o:p></p>
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<tbody>
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<td height="5" width="186"><br>
</td>
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</td>
<td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: black 0.75pt solid;
BORDER-LEFT: black 0.75pt solid; BACKGROUND:
white; VERTICAL-ALIGN: top; BORDER-TOP: black
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PADDING-LEFT: 7.95pt; PADDING-RIGHT:
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class="shape" v:shape="_x0000_s1040">
<p class="MsoNormal">Fig 2</p>
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</span><!--[endif]--><!--[if !mso &
!vml]--> <!--[endif]--><!--[if
!vml]--></td>
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</table>
<!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<br style="mso-ignore: vglayout" clear="all">
<p class="MsoNormal">Now we have the situation of a
charged particle traveling around a circular orbit.
Like the Bohr model of the Hydrogen atom, except much
faster. Now my CAT theory assumes that charge and mass
are held together by a Force that I have introduced
for example in the Vigier 9 paper. This means the
internal structure of the orbiting electron would be
expanded and the extra energy is stored not in a mass
increase but in the stretch of the spring
metaphorically holding the two together.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Interestingly
enough both particles woul exhibit an internal
rotation I believe is spin. I think I could duplicate
Sommerfelds fine structure correction but have not had
the time to do so and <b>would welcome help</b>.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But I thing I have a new and better
interpretation od both SRT and GRT - I've been trying
to get this across to Albrecht and I believe we now
have tangible analysis problem before us to resolve
our disagreement<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So let me steer the conversation to
this new challenge</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best wishes</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wolf</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/25/2017 7:48 AM,
Albrecht Giese wrote:</div>
<p>Dear John W and Grahame,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I think that I should explain a bit about this
discussion between Wolf and myself. Why this
discussion is as it is.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I find the topic of Wolf about conciousness very
interesting and very important. So I have continued
with this discussion. But, unfortunately in my view,
Wolf is basing his thoughts on a wrong understanding
of relativity. The finds that this "incorrect" theory
'SRT' is an indication of our human failure to
understand physics and so of our misleading
consciousness. - But not SRT is incorrect (as some of
you have already and repeatedly written) but Wolf's
understanding is wrong. - I am trying to give Wolf a
correct understanding as a precondition for a
successful development of the issue of consciousness.
I see that this may be boring for those who have
understood relativity. But what else can we do to get
ahead?</p>
Any ideas?<br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
</div>
<p> </p>
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