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<p>Wolf,</p>
<p>the original twin "paradox" we are discussing here is meant to go
on in a space where there is no gravity. If there is gravity it
will not change a lot but makes the logic unnecessary complicated.
So let's take the original version.</p>
<p>If both twins are passing each other, every one will see the
other one at the same speed. This is a simple consequence of
symmetry. <br>
</p>
<p>But your equation for time (below) is not correct but simplified
in an unacceptable way. The correct equation is <br>
</p>
<p>t' = (t-xv/c<sup>2</sup>)* (1-c<sup>2</sup>/v<sup>2</sup>)<sup>-1/2</sup></p>
<p>which also accounts for the synchronization problem. <br>
</p>
<p>Albrecht<br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 29.08.2017 um 06:09 schrieb Wolfgang
Baer:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:63539392-dcc0-067c-1f92-ccbc5b086419@nascentinc.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p>Graham:</p>
<p>I do not see any misunderstanding except perhaps a semantic one
- there is no paradox whether the clock rate is deduced from a
knowledge of GRT or from well known experiments is not a
distinction I think worth arguing about. The point is that given
a broader knoweledge of physics that what Einstein explained in
hie seminal 1905 paper there is no paradox. I agree. <br>
</p>
<p>Albrecht:</p>
<p>I just cannot grasp how you can say gravity has nothing to do
with it. If two twins pass each other with a relative velocity
would not the straight forward application of the Lorenz
transformations result that both twins conclude the other twin
is going more slowly than ones own. This is what Einstein and
every elementary text on SRT calculates t' = t (1-c<sup>2</sup>/v<sup>2</sup>)<sup>-1/2</sup><br>
</p>
<p>I'm not taking about anyting more, no additional understanding
about clock rates from experiments or GRT, just the time
dilation relationship<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/27/2017 11:48 AM, Albrecht Giese
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:f6321326-fb9e-ec43-d479-a1202e8c1bfe@a-giese.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<p>Hi Grahame,</p>
<p>without going into details of this discussion I only want to
point to the following fact:</p>
<p>Whereas you are of course right that the twin situation is
not a paradox but logically clean, what we all as I think have
sufficiently discussed here, the following is not correct in
my view:</p>
<p>The twin situation has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with gravity.</p>
<p>Two arguments for this:</p>
<p>o The so called twin paradox is purely Special Relativity.
Gravity on the other hand, is General Relativity. This is the
formal point.</p>
<p>o From practical numbers it is visible that gravity cannot
be an explanation. Take the usual example saying that one twin
stays at home and the other one travels - as seen from the
twin at home - for twenty years away and then twenty years
back. From the view of the twin at home, at the other ones
return 40 years have gone. For the travelling twin only one
year has gone (This case is theoretically possible if the
proper speed is taken, about 0.9997c)). Then the travelling
twin would have saved 39 years of life time. Now look at the
possible influence of gravity: Assume it takes the travelling
twin a year to change his speed from almost c to almost - c ,
then, even if the speed of proper time would decrease to zero,
he would have saved only one year. But, in this example, he
has saved 39 years. How could this work? No one in physics
assumes that proper time can run inversely. So this is no
possible explanation.</p>
<p>How is it explained? I do not want to repeat again and again
the correct (but a bit lengthy) explanation, but I attempt to
give a short version: In Einstein's relativity the run of time
in different frames can logically not be continuously
compared, it can only be compared at interaction points where
two clocks (or whatever) are at the same position. And the
determination of the situation at such common position has to
be done by the Lorentz transformation. And this determination
works, as many times said here, without logical conflicts.</p>
<p>If you solve this problem using the Lorentzian SRT, then the
result is the same but the argument is different, more
physics-related, and also better for the imagination. If
wanted, I can of course explain it.</p>
<p>Albrecht<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.08.2017 um 01:13 schrieb Dr
Grahame Blackwell:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CCE2F4D7ECF5430E943629241B634443@vincent">
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http-equiv="content-type">
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<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">I'm sorry
Wolf, but it seems that you're still not getting it.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">This
situation can be explained fully logically WITHOUT either
twin making any assumptions about SR or GR - simply from
their own observations and from well-proven experimental
findings.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">If we label
the twins A and B, then their situations are effectively
symmetric* - so we'll consider the scenario from the
viewpoint of twin A.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">A considers
him/herself static, and all motion to be attributable to
twin B. So - and this agrees with experimental
observation of clocks at high speed (in planes and in GPS
satellites) - twin A will observe twin B's clock running
slow, if A's own clock is not upset by any effect.
HOWEVER, since A is actually travelling in circular
motion, (s)he will experience a centripetal force;
assuming him/herself to be static, this will necessarily
be attributed to gravitational effects - and it's well
known from experiment (Pound-Rebka and successors) that
gravitational fields cause time dilation - so A will
expect their own clock to be running more slowly also due
to that 'gravitational' effect (note that this is not any
assumption of SR or GR, simply inference from proven
experimental results) [and so also A's observation of B's
clock, measured against A's own clock, will not fit the
standard SR time-dilation model, for reasons that A will
fully comprehend]. For A, the cumulative time-dilation
for B's perceived relative speed and for A's own perceived
'gravitational' effect exactly balance - so A will fully
expect both clocks to coincide when the twins meet again
(as B will also).</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">No paradox.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">* It needs to
be said that further study of causation of 'relativistic
time dilation' leads to the understanding that this is an
objective effect due to travelling at speed relative to
the unique objectively-static universal reference frame.
So if the centre of the circle traced out by A and B is
itself in motion relative to that reference frame then it
cannot be assumed that A's and B's motions will be
symmetric; in that case their clocks may well not
be precisely synchronised on their meeting again. This is
an observation relating to physical reality, which in no
way contradicts the self-consistency of SR (or GR) as a
mathematical system.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Best regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Grahame</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">=======</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid;
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<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4;
font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a
title="wolf@nascentinc.com"
href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">Wolfgang
Baer</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Nature of Light and Particles -
General Discussion</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August
26, 2017 3:09 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [General]
[NEW] SRT twin Paradox</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Dear John W, Grahame nd Albrecht:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I cannot let this request for help go
unanswered: </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I do not believe we have a any
fundamental disagreement with the twin paradox. <span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>It never was
anything more than a semantic problem. If two twins with
identical and locally synchronized clocks are set on
equal circular orbits in opposite directions and meet
again and compare clocks, I believe it is an
experimental fact that the clocks will run at the same
rate (neglecting solar gravity if experiments are
conducted near earth)</p>
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</span>The appearance of a twin paradox in my opinion is
completely due to Einstein’s sloppy writing. In his 1905
paper, which I looked up, he explicitly stated that a
clock making a round trip at velocity “v” will slow down
compared with a stationary observer. The argument that
both observers applying Einstein’s theory would NOT come
to this paradoxical conclusion is based on an
interpretation by a host of well meaning physicists of
Einstein’s original paper that suggests that each
observer, knowing relativity would use this knowledge
analyze the situation as shown in figure 1 above and
therefore not expect the other clock to slow down. As
Kracklauer correctly pointed out that there is an
original SRT that had the twin paradox people justly
criticized Einstein for it and a slightly revised SRT
that explains it away is usually not mentioned. I think
we all understand this and I have no argument with
Albrecht on this point.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now however I insist that the speed
of light is NOT constant because it depends upon the
situation the material (observer material) finds itself
in a gravitational field. As long as the field in that
material is fairly homogeneous the speed of light in
that observers material is representative of the speed
of EM interactions and is constant. And recognizing this
dependency is critical to making progress in physics by
eliminating the crazy adjustments to classical physics
the wrog interpretation of bith SRT and GRT has hoisted
upon us.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now Albrecht correctly states that
synchrotron experiments show that the speed of light is
constant and the mass is varying. </p>
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<![if !mso]>
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<p class=MsoNormal>~c speed of light</p>
</div>
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</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><span style="Z-INDEX: 3;
POSITION: relative; WIDTH: 322px; HEIGHT: 339px; TOP:
-48px; LEFT: 81px; mso-ignore: vglayout"><img
src="cid:part5.20BD4D87.50E788D1@a-giese.de"
v:shapes="_x0000_s1035 _x0000_s1036 _x0000_s1037
_x0000_s1038 _x0000_s1039 _x0000_s1041 _x0000_s1042
_x0000_s1043 _x0000_s1044 _x0000_s1045 _x0000_s1046
_x0000_s1047" class="" height="339" width="322"></span><!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> <br>
</o:p></p>
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<td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: black 0.75pt solid;
BORDER-LEFT: black 0.75pt solid; BACKGROUND:
white; VERTICAL-ALIGN: top; BORDER-TOP: black
0.75pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: black 0.75pt solid"
bgcolor="white" height="35" width="66"><!--[endif]--><!--[if
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PADDING-LEFT: 7.95pt; PADDING-RIGHT:
7.95pt; PADDING-TOP: 4.35pt"
class="shape" v:shape="_x0000_s1040">
<p class="MsoNormal">Fig 2</p>
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</span><!--[endif]--><!--[if !mso &
!vml]--> <!--[endif]--><!--[if
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<!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<br style="mso-ignore: vglayout" clear="all">
<p class="MsoNormal">Now we have the situation of a
charged particle traveling around a circular orbit. Like
the Bohr model of the Hydrogen atom, except much faster.
Now my CAT theory assumes that charge and mass are held
together by a Force that I have introduced for example
in the Vigier 9 paper. This means the internal structure
of the orbiting electron would be expanded and the extra
energy is stored not in a mass increase but in the
stretch of the spring metaphorically holding the two
together.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Interestingly
enough both particles woul exhibit an internal rotation
I believe is spin. I think I could duplicate Sommerfelds
fine structure correction but have not had the time to
do so and <b>would welcome help</b>.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But I thing I have a new and better
interpretation od both SRT and GRT - I've been trying to
get this across to Albrecht and I believe we now have
tangible analysis problem before us to resolve our
disagreement<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So let me steer the conversation to
this new challenge</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best wishes</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wolf</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/25/2017 7:48 AM,
Albrecht Giese wrote:</div>
<p>Dear John W and Grahame,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I think that I should explain a bit about this
discussion between Wolf and myself. Why this discussion
is as it is.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I find the topic of Wolf about conciousness very
interesting and very important. So I have continued with
this discussion. But, unfortunately in my view, Wolf is
basing his thoughts on a wrong understanding of
relativity. The finds that this "incorrect" theory 'SRT'
is an indication of our human failure to understand
physics and so of our misleading consciousness. - But
not SRT is incorrect (as some of you have already and
repeatedly written) but Wolf's understanding is wrong. -
I am trying to give Wolf a correct understanding as a
precondition for a successful development of the issue
of consciousness. I see that this may be boring for
those who have understood relativity. But what else can
we do to get ahead?</p>
Any ideas?<br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
</div>
<p> </p>
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