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<p>Wolf,</p>
<p>I missed to answer this last mail of you, but I should do so.<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 31.08.2017 um 07:40 schrieb Wolfgang
Baer:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:88ca6497-3b7b-6854-d021-aa67a2caeaf9@nascentinc.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p>Albrecht:</p>
<p>I originally started this question because I tried to show that
Einsteins SRT was wrong and then go on to propose some fixes.
What I ran into was the comment that I did not understand SRT.
Conclusion to date is that there apear to be many
interpretations and fixes to what Einstein said and how his
theory has be reinterpreted and updated. It is simply no good
talking further unless one specifies which SRT one is taking
about.</p>
</blockquote>
I do not understand why you see different interpretations of
Einstein's SRT. Because it is very clearly defined. There is another
less popular interpretation, the one of Hendrik Lorentz, which I
personally prefer. But also this one has the same logical
consequences, just another physical view. Maybe also better for
those who want a feasible imagination. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:88ca6497-3b7b-6854-d021-aa67a2caeaf9@nascentinc.com">
<p>My last E-mail to Graham included a quote from Einstein's
original paper which clearly stated that a clock moving around a
closed circuit would lose time. if I read the 1905 paper further
the example Einstein uses is to compare a clock on the equator
with one on the pole claiming the equilateral clock will run
slower. This statement even shows that Einstein had no qualms
about including an accelerated reference frame. Until the ground
rules as to what interpretation of SRT one is talking about I
think it is not worth going on. <br>
</p>
</blockquote>
Einstein has in his example treated the motion along the circuit as
a summation (or better, integration) if pieces of inertial motion of
infinitesimal length. One could understand each infinitesimal piece
as a little twin case. In each linear piece SRT is fully applicable,
and then the frame changes and SRT has to continue in the next
frame. And this is going on for a large number of steps. There is no
explicit acceleration used.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:88ca6497-3b7b-6854-d021-aa67a2caeaf9@nascentinc.com">
<p>I would much rather continue the diussion along the Synchotron
lines. That is why I i said "New" <br>
</p>
<p>To respond to your comment empty space is flat it does not
matter how far away you are from local masses you are surrounded
by masses and that introduces symmetric forces that determine
the gravitational potential, speed of EM interactions, the speed
of light , and clock rates.</p>
</blockquote>
The more you are distant from any masses the smaller influence comes
from gravitational potentials. So one can put these influences below
each assumed threshold. That was meant.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:88ca6497-3b7b-6854-d021-aa67a2caeaf9@nascentinc.com">
<p>Einsteins GRT has gamma dependent on the gravitatinal potential
, and obviously there are stars surrounding us so gravity
determins the property of intergalactiv space.</p>
</blockquote>
Einstein's gamma has nothing to do with gravity. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:88ca6497-3b7b-6854-d021-aa67a2caeaf9@nascentinc.com">
<p>If you do not agree with this tell me why?</p>
</blockquote>
The point where I do not agree here is that you mix aspects of SRT
and of GRT which have nothing to do with each other. We know that in
each real physical situation we do have a mix of many influences, in
your example there is always a gravitational field. But our
historical progress in physics was that we can mentally abstract
from this situation so that we assume an environment reduced to one
influence, and so we can have clear results and distil physical laws
from it.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:88ca6497-3b7b-6854-d021-aa67a2caeaf9@nascentinc.com">
<p>best wishes</p>
<p>Wolf<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
Best wishes <br>
Albrecht<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:88ca6497-3b7b-6854-d021-aa67a2caeaf9@nascentinc.com">
<p> </p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/30/2017 12:20 PM, Albrecht Giese
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0a4d3d37-a8d6-e1f2-30f4-9dba907f5f76@a-giese.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<p>Wolf,</p>
<p>the original twin "paradox" we are discussing here is meant
to go on in a space where there is no gravity. If there is
gravity it will not change a lot but makes the logic
unnecessary complicated. So let's take the original version.</p>
<p>If both twins are passing each other, every one will see the
other one at the same speed. This is a simple consequence of
symmetry. <br>
</p>
<p>But your equation for time (below) is not correct but
simplified in an unacceptable way. The correct equation is <br>
</p>
<p>t' = (t-xv/c<sup>2</sup>)* (1-c<sup>2</sup>/v<sup>2</sup>)<sup>-1/2</sup></p>
<p>which also accounts for the synchronization problem. <br>
</p>
<p>Albrecht<br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 29.08.2017 um 06:09 schrieb
Wolfgang Baer:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:63539392-dcc0-067c-1f92-ccbc5b086419@nascentinc.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<p>Graham:</p>
<p>I do not see any misunderstanding except perhaps a semantic
one - there is no paradox whether the clock rate is deduced
from a knowledge of GRT or from well known experiments is
not a distinction I think worth arguing about. The point is
that given a broader knoweledge of physics that what
Einstein explained in hie seminal 1905 paper there is no
paradox. I agree. <br>
</p>
<p>Albrecht:</p>
<p>I just cannot grasp how you can say gravity has nothing to
do with it. If two twins pass each other with a relative
velocity would not the straight forward application of the
Lorenz transformations result that both twins conclude the
other twin is going more slowly than ones own. This is
what Einstein and every elementary text on SRT calculates t'
= t (1-c<sup>2</sup>/v<sup>2</sup>)<sup>-1/2</sup><br>
</p>
<p>I'm not taking about anyting more, no additional
understanding about clock rates from experiments or GRT,
just the time dilation relationship<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/27/2017 11:48 AM, Albrecht
Giese wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:f6321326-fb9e-ec43-d479-a1202e8c1bfe@a-giese.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=utf-8">
<p>Hi Grahame,</p>
<p>without going into details of this discussion I only want
to point to the following fact:</p>
<p>Whereas you are of course right that the twin situation
is not a paradox but logically clean, what we all as I
think have sufficiently discussed here, the following is
not correct in my view:</p>
<p>The twin situation has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with
gravity.</p>
<p>Two arguments for this:</p>
<p>o The so called twin paradox is purely Special
Relativity. Gravity on the other hand, is General
Relativity. This is the formal point.</p>
<p>o From practical numbers it is visible that gravity
cannot be an explanation. Take the usual example saying
that one twin stays at home and the other one travels - as
seen from the twin at home - for twenty years away and
then twenty years back. From the view of the twin at home,
at the other ones return 40 years have gone. For the
travelling twin only one year has gone (This case is
theoretically possible if the proper speed is taken, about
0.9997c)). Then the travelling twin would have saved 39
years of life time. Now look at the possible influence of
gravity: Assume it takes the travelling twin a year to
change his speed from almost c to almost - c , then, even
if the speed of proper time would decrease to zero, he
would have saved only one year. But, in this example, he
has saved 39 years. How could this work? No one in physics
assumes that proper time can run inversely. So this is no
possible explanation.</p>
<p>How is it explained? I do not want to repeat again and
again the correct (but a bit lengthy) explanation, but I
attempt to give a short version: In Einstein's relativity
the run of time in different frames can logically not be
continuously compared, it can only be compared at
interaction points where two clocks (or whatever) are at
the same position. And the determination of the situation
at such common position has to be done by the Lorentz
transformation. And this determination works, as many
times said here, without logical conflicts.</p>
<p>If you solve this problem using the Lorentzian SRT, then
the result is the same but the argument is different, more
physics-related, and also better for the imagination. If
wanted, I can of course explain it.</p>
<p>Albrecht<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.08.2017 um 01:13 schrieb
Dr Grahame Blackwell:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CCE2F4D7ECF5430E943629241B634443@vincent">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="content-type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.23588">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">I'm sorry
Wolf, but it seems that you're still not getting it.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">This
situation can be explained fully logically WITHOUT
either twin making any assumptions about SR or GR -
simply from their own observations and from
well-proven experimental findings.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">If we
label the twins A and B, then their situations are
effectively symmetric* - so we'll consider the
scenario from the viewpoint of twin A.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">A
considers him/herself static, and all motion to be
attributable to twin B. So - and this agrees with
experimental observation of clocks at high speed (in
planes and in GPS satellites) - twin A will observe
twin B's clock running slow, if A's own clock is not
upset by any effect. HOWEVER, since A is actually
travelling in circular motion, (s)he will experience a
centripetal force; assuming him/herself to be static,
this will necessarily be attributed to gravitational
effects - and it's well known from experiment
(Pound-Rebka and successors) that gravitational fields
cause time dilation - so A will expect their own clock
to be running more slowly also due to that
'gravitational' effect (note that this is not any
assumption of SR or GR, simply inference from proven
experimental results) [and so also A's observation of
B's clock, measured against A's own clock, will not
fit the standard SR time-dilation model, for reasons
that A will fully comprehend]. For A, the
cumulative time-dilation for B's perceived relative
speed and for A's own perceived 'gravitational' effect
exactly balance - so A will fully expect both clocks
to coincide when the twins meet again (as B will
also).</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">No
paradox.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">* It
needs to be said that further study of causation of
'relativistic time dilation' leads to the
understanding that this is an objective effect due to
travelling at speed relative to the unique
objectively-static universal reference frame. So if
the centre of the circle traced out by A and B is
itself in motion relative to that reference frame then
it cannot be assumed that A's and B's motions will be
symmetric; in that case their clocks may well not
be precisely synchronised on their meeting again.
This is an observation relating to physical reality,
which in no way contradicts the self-consistency of SR
(or GR) as a mathematical system.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Best
regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Grahame</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">=======</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message
----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4;
font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a
title="wolf@nascentinc.com"
href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Wolfgang Baer</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Nature of Light and Particles
- General Discussion</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday,
August 26, 2017 3:09 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [General]
[NEW] SRT twin Paradox</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Dear John W, Grahame nd Albrecht:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I cannot let this request for
help go unanswered: </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I do not believe we have a any
fundamental disagreement with the twin paradox. <span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>It never was
anything more than a semantic problem. If two twins
with identical and locally synchronized clocks are
set on equal circular orbits in opposite directions
and meet again and compare clocks, I believe it is
an experimental fact that the clocks will run at the
same rate (neglecting solar gravity if experiments
are conducted near earth)</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</span>The appearance of a twin paradox in my
opinion is completely due to Einstein’s sloppy
writing. In his 1905 paper, which I looked up, he
explicitly stated that a clock making a round trip
at velocity “v” will slow down compared with a
stationary observer. The argument that both
observers applying Einstein’s theory would NOT come
to this paradoxical conclusion is based on an
interpretation by a host of well meaning physicists
of Einstein’s original paper that suggests that each
observer, knowing relativity would use this
knowledge analyze the situation as shown in figure 1
above and therefore not expect the other clock to
slow down. As Kracklauer correctly pointed out that
there is an original SRT that had the twin paradox
people justly criticized Einstein for it and a
slightly revised SRT that explains it away is
usually not mentioned. I think we all understand
this and I have no argument with Albrecht on this
point.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now however I insist that the
speed of light is NOT constant because it depends
upon the situation the material (observer material)
finds itself in a gravitational field. As long as
the field in that material is fairly homogeneous the
speed of light in that observers material is
representative of the speed of EM interactions and
is constant. And recognizing this dependency is
critical to making progress in physics by
eliminating the crazy adjustments to classical
physics the wrog interpretation of bith SRT and GRT
has hoisted upon us.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Now Albrecht correctly states
that synchrotron experiments show that the speed of
light is constant and the mass is varying. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:oval id="_x0000_s1035" style='position:absolute;
margin-left:61.5pt;margin-top:2.1pt;width:214pt;height:214pt;z-index:3;
mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute'/><v:shape
id="_x0000_s1036" type="#_x0000_t202" style='position:absolute;margin-left:155.5pt;
margin-top:-26.9pt;width:25.5pt;height:24pt;z-index:4;
mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute'>
<v:textbox style='mso-next-textbox:#_x0000_s1036'>
<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
<tr>
<td><![endif]>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>m</p>
</div>
<![if !mso]></td>
</tr>
</table>
<![endif]></v:textbox>
</v:shape><v:line id="_x0000_s1037" style='position:absolute;z-index:5;
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mso-position-horizontal:absolute;mso-position-vertical:absolute' filled="f">
<v:textbox>
<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
<tr>
<td><![endif]>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Mass</p>
</div>
<![if !mso]></td>
</tr>
</table>
<![endif]></v:textbox>
</v:shape><v:oval id="_x0000_s1039" style='position:absolute;margin-left:152.5pt;
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style='position:absolute;margin-left:152.5pt;margin-top:11pt;width:33.5pt;
height:28.1pt;z-index:9' coordorigin="7340,2020" coordsize="670,562">
<v:shape id="_x0000_s1042" type="#_x0000_t202" style='position:absolute;
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mso-position-vertical:absolute' filled="f" stroked="f">
<v:textbox style='mso-next-textbox:#_x0000_s1042'>
<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
<tr>
<td><![endif]>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>ch</p>
</div>
<![if !mso]></td>
</tr>
</table>
<![endif]></v:textbox>
</v:shape><v:oval id="_x0000_s1043" style='position:absolute;left:7340;top:2020;
width:590;height:500' filled="f"/>
</v:group><v:shape id="_x0000_s1044" type="#_x0000_t202" style='position:absolute;
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stroked="f">
<v:textbox>
<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
<tr>
<td><![endif]>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Ch</p>
</div>
<![if !mso]></td>
</tr>
</table>
<![endif]></v:textbox>
</v:shape><v:shape id="_x0000_s1045" style='position:absolute;margin-left:152.85pt;
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<v:path arrowok="t"/>
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<v:textbox>
<![if !mso]>
<table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="100%">
<tr>
<td><![endif]>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>~c speed of light</p>
</div>
<![if !mso]></td>
</tr>
</table>
<![endif]></v:textbox>
</v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><span style="Z-INDEX: 3;
POSITION: relative; WIDTH: 322px; HEIGHT: 339px;
TOP: -48px; LEFT: 81px; mso-ignore: vglayout"><img
src="cid:part6.9B537E92.4FBD27BE@a-giese.de"
v:shapes="_x0000_s1035 _x0000_s1036 _x0000_s1037
_x0000_s1038 _x0000_s1039 _x0000_s1041
_x0000_s1042 _x0000_s1043 _x0000_s1044
_x0000_s1045 _x0000_s1046 _x0000_s1047" class=""
height="339" width="322"></span><!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> <br>
</o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_s1040" type="#_x0000_t202"
style='position:absolute;margin-left:140pt;margin-top:4.2pt;width:45pt;
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mso-position-vertical:absolute'/><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]--><span
style="mso-ignore: vglayout"> </span></p>
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" align="left">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td height="5" width="186"><br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><br>
</td>
<td style="BORDER-BOTTOM: black 0.75pt solid;
BORDER-LEFT: black 0.75pt solid; BACKGROUND:
white; VERTICAL-ALIGN: top; BORDER-TOP: black
0.75pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: black 0.75pt
solid" bgcolor="white" height="35" width="66"><!--[endif]--><!--[if
!mso]--><span style="Z-INDEX: 8; POSITION:
absolute; mso-ignore: vglayout">
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td><!--[endif]-->
<div style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.35pt;
PADDING-LEFT: 7.95pt;
PADDING-RIGHT: 7.95pt;
PADDING-TOP: 4.35pt" class="shape"
v:shape="_x0000_s1040">
<p class="MsoNormal">Fig 2</p>
</div>
<!--[if !mso]--></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</span><!--[endif]--><!--[if !mso
&
!vml]--> <!--[endif]--><!--[if
!vml]--></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<!--[endif]--><o:p> </o:p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<br style="mso-ignore: vglayout" clear="all">
<p class="MsoNormal">Now we have the situation of a
charged particle traveling around a circular orbit.
Like the Bohr model of the Hydrogen atom, except
much faster. Now my CAT theory assumes that charge
and mass are held together by a Force that I have
introduced for example in the Vigier 9 paper. This
means the internal structure of the orbiting
electron would be expanded and the extra energy is
stored not in a mass increase but in the stretch of
the spring metaphorically holding the two together.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Interestingly
enough both particles woul exhibit an internal
rotation I believe is spin. I think I could
duplicate Sommerfelds fine structure correction but
have not had the time to do so and <b>would welcome
help</b>.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But I thing I have a new and
better interpretation od both SRT and GRT - I've
been trying to get this across to Albrecht and I
believe we now have tangible analysis problem before
us to resolve our disagreement<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So let me steer the conversation
to this new challenge</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best wishes</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wolf</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/25/2017 7:48 AM,
Albrecht Giese wrote:</div>
<p>Dear John W and Grahame,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I think that I should explain a bit about this
discussion between Wolf and myself. Why this
discussion is as it is.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I find the topic of Wolf about conciousness very
interesting and very important. So I have continued
with this discussion. But, unfortunately in my view,
Wolf is basing his thoughts on a wrong understanding
of relativity. The finds that this "incorrect"
theory 'SRT' is an indication of our human failure
to understand physics and so of our misleading
consciousness. - But not SRT is incorrect (as some
of you have already and repeatedly written) but
Wolf's understanding is wrong. - I am trying to give
Wolf a correct understanding as a precondition for a
successful development of the issue of
consciousness. I see that this may be boring for
those who have understood relativity. But what else
can we do to get ahead?</p>
Any ideas?<br>
<br>
Albrecht<br>
<br>
</div>
<p> </p>
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