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<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Wolf, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>I make absolutely no reference to
POINT particles. My own perception of a particle is a million miles from
that! (literally!). However we must surely agree that the physical realm
is formed from SOMETHING - otherwise we are totally lost! - and that 'something'
must have properties that govern both its behaviour and its influence. I
have simply observed that both mass and charge are properties of the 'something'
we refer to as 'a charged particle' - if you don't agree with that then I have
no idea at all what you're talking about! If charge and mass are just two
properties floating about in the cosmos not associated with anything then we may
as well all pack up and go home, since there's nothing tangible even to refer
to!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>[Note that in your example of the
antenna it seems that you're confusing two issues: the charge is not carried by
the antenna but by charged particles moving within that antenna - that's why the
charge moves.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Wolf, it seems to me sometimes that
you are trying to claim the moral (intellectual?) high ground by suggesting that
others are too fixed in their thinking. This is not actually a good
position to be in, as it also seems to me that you are rather fixed in your
thinking that we can dispense with any even-slightly postulates and attribute
all effects to 'new discoveries in the future'. At some point even those
discoveries will be in the past - will you then want to dispense with them
also? If we don't attribute any significance whatever to observed
phenomena then we have nothing to work with - all we have is speculation (and
note that the root of even that word is based on Plato's cave concept,
effectively - so even that depends on some degree of observation).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>As you say, we can certainly ask
<EM>why?</EM> - but that question is never going to be answered without
<EM>some</EM> reference to observed phenomena and inferences based on those
observations.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Grahame</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=wolf@nascentinc.com href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com">Wolfgang
Baer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists..natureoflightandparticles.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 13, 2017 10:31
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [General] What holds mass
and charge together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P>Yes of course if you agree that the world is made of particles and that all
identified "properties" must be attached to their center points then you would
dismiss any other possibility</P>
<P>But we are now talking not about what is "known truth" but whether some of
those known truths are in fact the best way to interpret our observable
experiences. There are quite obviously many situations where the charge
centers move relative to the mass when looking at large aggregation just
consider a dipole antenna obviously large charges move up and down but the
mass center stays pretty well stable.</P>
<P>Bohr and most nuclear physics id based upon the assumption that all
properties are attached to point particles is this correct?</P>
<P>Scattering experiments have shown the shape of elemetary particles are not
all perfect spheres. <BR></P>
<P>We ave two major force categories dominating the macroscopic world
electricity-magnetism and gravity-inertia each domain has a set of well
developed descriptive equations , but the simple connection between the two is
a straight forward guess.</P>
<P>
The Lorenz force Fl is simply equated to the
acceleration Fl = ma but we never measure the position
of a mass we always measure the position of a charge configuration . We cannot
see or feel a mass all we see and feel is the electric coulomb repulsion
between the surface electrons of our hand and the surface electrons of the
objects we hold. <BR></P>
<P>There the mystery starts, you can paper over it with a fiat, or you can ask
why?</P>
<P>You can apply the rules we have discovered to work in the past or you can
look for new discoveries in the future <BR></P>
<P>What group do you want to belong to?</P>
<P>best wishes <BR></P>
<P>The question puzzling me on the Bohr atom case is not that Somerfeld's
adjustments can occur, but if there are adjustments why do they not apply to
shift the lines all together from the single theoretical prediction, why is
there a hyperfine structure in the spectral lines?</P>
<P>Wolf<BR></P>
<P><BR></P><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</A></PRE>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 9/13/2017 6:54 AM, Andrew Meulenberg
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:CAOODe7GXX-QLeDwrZEHkDfmurLL918OVmwdU83XJZ4tcBvhFwA@mail.gmail..com
type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>I agree with Grahame. Separating charge and mass is like separating
electricity and magnetism.<BR><BR></DIV>Andrew<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Dr Grahame Blackwell
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:grahame@starweave.com" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">grahame@starweave.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Wolf (et al.),</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>(diagrams dropped, with chain
of other previous emails.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>In my view there is absolutely
no issue as to what holds mass and charge together - neither is an object,
to be 'held' to anything else, they are both effects. There seems
little doubt that both of those effects are artefacts of the fundamental
content of a massive charged particle - namely its formative
energy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>It's very simply shown that if
a particle is moving then its energy content must increase in exactly the
way described (without explanation) in SR - this is fully apparent from
the Relativistic Energy-Momentum Relation; this is inertial mass, the
requirement for that additional energy to maintain the structural
integrity of the particle. Likewise it's totally apparent from
interference effects demonstrated in respect of massive particles that
charge also must be an artefact of that formative energy. So the
very concept that they could possibly be separated, and so need holding
together, makes absolutely no sense to me. I Kant see the point of
even discussing it! (Sorry, that pun may not translate very
well!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>[As a point of detail, that
energy is also its gravitational mass, for other reasons arising directly
from that energy.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face=Arial>Grahame</FONT></DIV><SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=wolf@nascentinc.com href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com"
target=_blank moz-do-not-send="true">Wolfgang Baer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=phys@a-giese.de
href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">Albrecht Giese</A> ; <A
title=general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 13, 2017
8:35 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [General] What holds mass
and charge together</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P>Chandra and Albrecht:</P>
<P>I fully agree with the Plato's shadow analogy and the realization
that we have been building a physics that explains the shadows not
the reality is very clear. But that involves giving up the notion
of a fixed objective reality and moving toward a n acknowledgement of a
Kantian unknowable about which we make models that express our best
guess and judge them based on success.</P>
<P>It involves returning to simple examples and testing the logic of our
assumptions. Toward this end I have returned to the old simple
experimants the utilize the concept of mass and charge as the most
understandable properties of matter. One of the central assumptions in
physics is that of a point particle which places all properties of the
particle and specifically the source and sink of mass and charge centers
at a co-located point.</P>
<P>So I ask what holds charge and mass together? what kind of physics
would we have if there were a force Fcm and Fmc between charge and mass
and mass and charge.</P>
<P></P>
<P><SPAN></SPAN></P>
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