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<p>Yes of course if you agree that the world is made of particles
and that all identified "properties" must be attached to their
center points then you would dismiss any other possibility</p>
<p>But we are now talking not about what is "known truth" but
whether some of those known truths are in fact the best way to
interpret our observable experiences. There are quite obviously
many situations where the charge centers move relative to the mass
when looking at large aggregation just consider a dipole antenna
obviously large charges move up and down but the mass center stays
pretty well stable.</p>
<p>Bohr and most nuclear physics id based upon the assumption that
all properties are attached to point particles is this correct?</p>
<p>Scattering experiments have shown the shape of elemetary
particles are not all perfect spheres. <br>
</p>
<p>We ave two major force categories dominating the macroscopic
world electricity-magnetism and gravity-inertia each domain has a
set of well developed descriptive equations , but the simple
connection between the two is a straight forward guess.</p>
<p> The Lorenz force Fl is simply equated to the
acceleration Fl = ma but we never measure the position of a
mass we always measure the position of a charge configuration . We
cannot see or feel a mass all we see and feel is the electric
coulomb repulsion between the surface electrons of our hand and
the surface electrons of the objects we hold. <br>
</p>
<p>There the mystery starts, you can paper over it with a fiat, or
you can ask why?</p>
<p>You can apply the rules we have discovered to work in the past or
you can look for new discoveries in the future <br>
</p>
<p>What group do you want to belong to?</p>
<p>best wishes <br>
</p>
<p>The question puzzling me on the Bohr atom case is not that
Somerfeld's adjustments can occur, but if there are adjustments
why do they not apply to shift the lines all together from the
single theoretical prediction, why is there a hyperfine structure
in the spectral lines?</p>
<p>Wolf<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/13/2017 6:54 AM, Andrew Meulenberg
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAOODe7GXX-QLeDwrZEHkDfmurLL918OVmwdU83XJZ4tcBvhFwA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I agree with Grahame. Separating charge and mass is like
separating electricity and magnetism.<br>
<br>
</div>
Andrew<br>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 9:32 AM,
Dr Grahame Blackwell <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:grahame@starweave.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">grahame@starweave.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Wolf
(et al.),</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">(diagrams
dropped, with chain of other previous emails.)</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">In
my view there is absolutely no issue as to what
holds mass and charge together - neither is an
object, to be 'held' to anything else, they are
both effects. There seems little doubt that
both of those effects are artefacts of the
fundamental content of a massive charged
particle - namely its formative energy.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">It's
very simply shown that if a particle is moving
then its energy content must increase in exactly
the way described (without explanation) in SR -
this is fully apparent from the Relativistic
Energy-Momentum Relation; this is inertial mass,
the requirement for that additional energy to
maintain the structural integrity of the
particle. Likewise it's totally apparent from
interference effects demonstrated in respect of
massive particles that charge also must be an
artefact of that formative energy. So the very
concept that they could possibly be separated,
and so need holding together, makes absolutely
no sense to me. I Kant see the point of even
discussing it! (Sorry, that pun may not
translate very well!)</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">[As
a point of detail, that energy is also its
gravitational mass, for other reasons arising
directly from that energy.]</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#000080">Grahame</font></div>
<span class="">
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000080 2px
solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original
Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="wolf@nascentinc.com"
href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Wolfgang
Baer</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
title="phys@a-giese.de"
href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Albrecht
Giese</a> ; <a
title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Nature
of Light and Particles - General Discussion</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b>
Wednesday, September 13, 2017 8:35 AM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b>
[General] What holds mass and charge together</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<p>Chandra and Albrecht:</p>
<p>I fully agree with the Plato's shadow analogy
and the realization that we have been building
a physics that explains the shadows not the
reality is very clear. But that involves
giving up the notion of a fixed objective
reality and moving toward a n acknowledgement
of a Kantian unknowable about which we make
models that express our best guess and judge
them based on success.</p>
<p>It involves returning to simple examples and
testing the logic of our assumptions. Toward
this end I have returned to the old simple
experimants the utilize the concept of mass
and charge as the most understandable
properties of matter. One of the central
assumptions in physics is that of a point
particle which places all properties of the
particle and specifically the source and sink
of mass and charge centers at a co-located
point.</p>
<p>So I ask what holds charge and mass together?
what kind of physics would we have if there
were a force Fcm and Fmc between charge and
mass and mass and charge.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> <span> </span></p>
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