<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>What this "Al" has been saying is that there is no way to investigate what a photon "is" as it travels from a charged entity to another charged entity. What it is underway cannot be formulated as a scientific question. Formal logic excludeds all investigation (hence "scientific" analysis) of photons or E&M waves altogether apart from the charged entities in a sending antenna say and the photoelectrons in a receiving apparatus of any sort. This follows as investigating photons or E&M waves in fleight REQUIRES inserting an instrument with charged entities in it into the path of the object of interest so thtat in the end one winds up reporting what the receiving charges in the instument did not what the photon or wave was doing before it encountered the charges of the instument.
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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Montag, 02. Oktober 2017 um 15:04 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "John Williamson" <John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk><br/>
<b>An:</b> "Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion" <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>, "Andrew Meulenberg" <mules333@gmail.com><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> "Martin Rivas" <martin.rivas@ehu.es>, "David Hestenes" <Hestenes@asu.edu>, "Mark, Martin van der" <martin.van.der.mark@philips.com>, "robert hudgins" <hudginswr@msn.com><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] A composite electron?</div>
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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: rgb(0,0,0);font-size: 10.0pt;">Dear everyone,<br/>
<br/>
It is perhaps worth pointing out that there is yet another theory where the photon requires two corpuscles of charge. it is called quantum electrodynamics, where the emitting and absorbing corpuscles are both necessarily charged. As Al has been saying all along, no such thing as a photon without charge.<br/>
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Regards, JGW.
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<div id="divRpF955412" style="direction: ltr;"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> General [general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] on behalf of Andrew Meulenberg [mules333@gmail.com]<br/>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 02, 2017 1:20 PM<br/>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion; Andrew Meulenberg<br/>
<b>Cc:</b> Martin Rivas; David Hestenes; robert hudgins<br/>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] A composite electron?</font><br/>
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Dear Folks,<br/>
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The composite electron model has a history of which I was not aware. From mid-right column of page 4 of (free access):
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<div><a href="https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/" target="_blank">https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/</a><b>the-last-challenge-of-modern-physics</b>-2090-0902-1000217.php?aid=87682<br/>
<div style="margin-left: 40.0px;"><span class="gmail-fontstyle0">Louis de Broglie elaborated a most promising hypothesis to help</span><br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">explain these special characteristics of the photon [7]. Having analyzed</span><br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">them in light of the verifed aspects of the various pertaining theories,</span><br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">he eventually concluded that the only way for an electromagnetic</span><br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">photon to satisfy at the same time Bose-Einstein's statistic and Planck's</span><br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">law, and to perfectly explain the photoelectric effect while obeying</span><br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">Maxwell's equations and conforming to the symmetry property of</span><br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">complementary corpuscles in Dirac's Hole Theory, would be for it to</span><br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">be made not of one corpuscle, but of two corpuscles, or half-photons,</span><br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">that would be complementary, like the electron is complementary to</span><br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">the positron in Dirac's Hole Theory [15].</span><br/>
<br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">This conclusion mandates the association of charges (possibly<br/>
unsigned) to each half-photon, and consequently to the photon itself, ...</span><br style="font-style: normal;font-variant: normal;font-weight: normal;letter-spacing: normal;line-height: normal;text-indent: 0.0px;text-transform: none;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0.0px;"/>
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<div style="margin-left: 40.0px;">
<div style="margin-left: 40.0px;"><span class="gmail-fontstyle0">7. Michaud A (2016) On De Broglie’s Double-particle Photon Hypothesis. J Phys</span><br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">Math 7: 153.</span><br/>
<br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">15. De Broglie L (1937) New physics and quanta, Flammarion, 2</span><span class="gmail-fontstyle0" style="font-size: 4.0pt;">nd </span><span class="gmail-fontstyle0">1993 new</span><br/>
<span class="gmail-fontstyle0">Preface.</span></div>
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<div>This would imply that, historically, the Nature of Light is even more curious than most of us thought.<br/>
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<div>Andrew M.</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Richard Gauthier <span> <<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='richgauthier@gmail.com'; return false;" target="_blank">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hello Martin (and all),</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Thank you for this summary of your CC-CM approach to a moving particle such as an electron. My approach to modeling an electron is quite similar to yours, except that in my approach the CC (center of charge) is the position of a light-speed spin-1/2 charged quantum particle that I call a choton. It is in circular motion in a resting electron and moves helically in a moving electron. The linear momentum of the choton in a resting electron is Po=mc=2.73x10^-22 kg m/s = 0.511 MeV/c (and its energy is mc^2= 0.511 MeV) and this momentum mc circles with radius Ro= L-compton/4pi = hbar/2mc = 1.93x10^-13m at the zitterbewegung frequency f-zitt=2mc^2/h. The choton’s average position as the choton circles around is what you call the CM (center of mass). In a resting electron the choton (at the position CC) and the CM are separated by the distance Ro, with the choton circling around its CM at the zitter frequency. Due to its circular motion with its changing momentum direction, the choton appears to be acted on by a centripetal force Fc=dp/dt = w Po = w-zitt Po = 0.424 N , where w-zitt (omega-zitt) = 2 mc^2/hbar = 1.55 x 10^21 rad/sec. The choton’s centripetal acceleration A-cent in this circular motion in a resting electron is A-cent = r w^2 = Ro (w-zitt)^2 = 4.66x10^29 m/s^2. My article “Derivation of the inertial mass m=Eo/c^2 of an electron composed of a circling spin-1/2 charge photon” at <a href="https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research%23papers" target="_blank">https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research#papers</a> (4<sup>th</sup> article) also shows that the above circling choton (spin-1/2 charged photon) has an inertial mass m = Eo/c^2 = 0.511MeV/c^2 derived from its circling momentum mc=Eo/c.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> When no external force (besides the apparent 0.424 N central force) acts on the choton, the moving electron model moves longitudinally with velocity <b>v</b> and with momentum <b>p</b>=gamma m<b>v</b>. The choton circulates with its longitudinal momentum component P-long = gamma mv, which is the electron’s linear momentum, and with a transverse momentum component P-trans = Po = mc. Using the Pythagorean equation, this gives the choton’s total momentum directed along its helical trajectory as P-total^2 = P-long^2 + P-trans^2 = (gamma mv)^2 + (mc)^2 = (gamma mc)^2, or P-total = gamma mc. The choton’s corresponding total energy is E-total = P-total c = gamma mc^2, which is the same as a relativistic electron’s total energy. </p>
<h4 style="margin-top: 0.0in;margin-right: 0.0in;margin-bottom: 9.0pt;margin-left: 0.0in;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> When an external electric field </span>E<span style="font-weight: normal;"> acts on the circulating choton, the choton (with its inertial mass m=0.511 MeV/c^2) is accelerated by a net force </span>Fnet<span style="font-weight: normal;"> equal to the rapidly rotating centripetal force </span>Fc<span style="font-weight: normal;">= 0.424 N plus the external force </span> F<span style="font-weight: normal;">=-e</span>E. <span style="font-weight: normal;">The total force on the choton is </span>Fnet<span style="font-weight: normal;"> = </span>Fc<span style="font-weight: normal;"> + e</span>E <span style="font-weight: normal;">= m </span>a-total <span style="font-weight: normal;"> in the non-relativistic case or </span>Fnet<span style="font-weight: normal;"> = d</span>p-total<span style="font-weight: normal;">/dt in the relativistic case. The choton’s helical motion (the motion of the CC) will be changed by the external electric field </span>E <span style="font-weight: normal;">acting on the choton, and the choton’s CM (average position) will be affected accordingly, and move in the direction of the applied external force </span>E<span style="font-weight: normal;">.</span></h4>
<h4 style="margin-top: 0.0in;margin-right: 0.0in;margin-bottom: 9.0pt;margin-left: 0.0in;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> There are also quantum mechanical features of the above motion. As the choton changes its helical trajectory due to the applied electric field </span>E<span style="font-weight: normal;">, the choton’s transverse momentum component P-trans = mc adjusts its orientation so that P-trans continues to be transverse to the choton’s new longitudinal motion with its new longitudinal component velocity </span>v’ <span style="font-weight: normal;">(the new electron velocity). In this way the calculated spin of the choton electron model continues to be Ro x Po = hbar/2 and the Pythogorean momentum relation continues to be P-total^2 = P-long^2 + P-trans^2 (which is mathematically equivalent to the relativistic energy-momentum equation E^2 = p^2 c^2 +m^2 c4). Further information on the spin-1/2 charged photon model is at “Electron’s are spin 1/2 charged photons generating the de Broglie wavelength” at <a href="https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research#papers" target="_blank">https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research#papers</a> (19<sup>th</sup> article).</span></h4>
<h4 style="margin-top: 0.0in;margin-right: 0.0in;margin-bottom: 9.0pt;margin-left: 0.0in;"><span style="font-weight: normal;"> In summary, the choton electron model does not need to be a rigid body to maintain the relation between CC and CM. All forces (including the apparent centripetal force F-cent) act on the choton (at the CC), which has its own inertial mass, producing the choton’s acceleration and average center of mass position CM. </span></h4>
<div><span style="font-weight: normal;">with warm regards,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-weight: normal;"> Richard</span></div>
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<div>On Sep 25, 2017, at 2:18 AM, Martin Rivas <<a href="mailto:martin.rivas@ehu.es" onclick="parent.window.location.href='martin.rivas@ehu.es'; return false;" target="_blank">martin.rivas@ehu.es</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">Dear Wolfgang and Richard,</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">Thank you for your interest. I will try an answer to your hints and questions.</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">In my opinion there is no need to find a mechanism for binding together the center of mass and center of charge</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">of the electron.</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">For any arbitrary mechanical system, once the total external force F is determined, we use this total</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">force to compute the trajectory of the CM by considering that this point (CM) is a point particle of mass</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">m, the total mass of the system, and solve the corresponding differential equations dp/dt=F. The linear momentum p</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">is expressed in terms of the CM velocity v, as usual p=mv in a non-relativistic framework, or p=gamma(v)mv<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">in a relativistic one.</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">This is known as the center of mass theorem.<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">In the case of an elementary particle the hypothesis is that the interacting property, the charge,</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">either electric, weak or strong charge, can be associated to a single point, the center of charge.</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">An elementary particle is such a simple system that its interacting structure can be reduced to a single</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">point (the CC) and no further multipoles.</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">To know the position of this point is important to determine from there the fields produced by the elementary</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">particle and also, by assumption, the force produced by the external fields on the particle, which is</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">just the evaluation of the external fields at the particle center of charge.</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">In the Preamble of my Notes I consider as an example the possibility that an elementary particle can be<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">considered as a rigid body. All electromagnetic structure can be reduced to a single point, the CC.<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">But this point is by assumption a different point than the CM. What we get is that once the trajectory<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">of the CC is determined,</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">the trajectory of the CM can also be computed as an average trajectory of the other. And we have not to worry</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">about how these two points are bound together. We can also compute the trajectory of the CM as usual,</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">as a Newtonian equation, but the total external force is not defined at the CM but rather at the CC.</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">The CC satisfies fourth order differential equations which have helical solutions, so that the center<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">of the helix corresponds to the CM trajectory.</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">In this way there is no need in this formalism to consider that an elementary particle</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">to be a helically-moving charged photon-like object. It can be reduced to a single point, the CC.</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">But three degrees of freedom are not sufficient to describe spin 1/2 objects.</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">Later I need some extra three degrees of freedom to describe orientation, so that an elementary</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">particle becomes a localized and orientable mechanical system. The particle moves and rotates.</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">From the quantum mechanical point of view we need the orientation variables to have spin operators</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">with 1/2 spectrum. The analysis in the preamble shows that if the two centers are different points, then</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">the CC has to be moving at an unreachable velocity for every inertial observer. This is the speed of light but we have</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">no photons moving around. Just the motion of the CC.</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">At this stage of the formalism what we have are electromagnetic forces. Gravity is absent by assumption</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">because we are in a Restricted Relativity Principle framework. The electromagnetic forces are computed in terms</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">of the motions of the CC's of the particles that interact.</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">Bohr atom.<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">The usual conception that the electron, in the ground state, describes an orbit,<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">either circular or elliptic trajectory around the CM of the proton is misleading.<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">The reason is that in the ground state of the atom, the orbital angular momentum of the electron is L=0. It is a S-state.<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">Literally it means from the classical point of view that the linear momentum of the electron,<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">and therefore the trajectory of the CM of<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">the electron, has to be pointing always to the CM of the proton. It has to be a back and forth trajectory</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">around the CM of the proton, a straight trajectory. This is impossible for a spinless point particle because</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">the two particles will collide at the common CM. But if the electron has two separate points,<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">there is no problem that the motion of the CM of the electron go through the CM of the proton, while the CC<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">of both particles will never meet each other. For the electron the separation between CM and CC is 10^{-13} m,</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">while the estimated size of the proton is smaller, around 10^{-15} m, 100 times smaller.<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">The CC of the electron will never collide with the charge of the proton.</span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">Best regards</span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">Martin</span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">De:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;"><span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span>Richard Gauthier [<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='richgauthier@gmail.com'; return false;" target="_blank">mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com</a>]<span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><br/>
<b>Enviado el:</b><span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span>lunes, 25 de septiembre de 2017 4:50<br/>
<b>Para:</b><span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br/>
<b>CC:</b><span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span>Martin Rivas; David Hestenes<br/>
<b>Asunto:</b><span class="m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] A composite electron?</span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">Hello Martin,</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"> I would like to know if you have ever considered your helically-moving-lightspeed-charge electron model (which is similar to David Hestene's helically-moving-lightspeed-charge zitter electron model) to be a helically-moving charged photon-like object (which I call a “choton” — rhymes with “photon" -- for “charged photon”). A helically-moving lightspeed charged photon-like object would have its inertial mass centered on its helical axis (as in your electron model) and so It seems that it would be quite similar in many ways to your electron model, including having the electron's spin 1/2 due to its helical radius of hbar/2mc. Furthermore, a helically-circling charged photon-like object would have the ability to generate the electron’s relativistic de Broglie wavelength L-db= h/(gamma mv) due to its wave motion (and wavelength lambda = h/(gamma mc) for a relativistic electron of energy E=gamma mc^2 = hf= hc/lambda) along its helical trajectory.</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"> Thanks,</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"> Richard</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">On Sep 24, 2017, at 12:20 PM, Martin Rivas <<a href="mailto:martin.rivas@ehu.es" onclick="parent.window.location.href='martin.rivas@ehu.es'; return false;" style="color: purple;text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank">martin.rivas@ehu.es</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">Tank you Richard,</span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">Best regards</span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);">Martin</span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">De:</span></b><span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: Tahoma , sans-serif;">Richard Gauthier [<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='richgauthier@gmail.com'; return false;" style="color: purple;text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank">mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com</a>]<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><br/>
<b>Enviado el:</b><span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span>domingo, 24 de septiembre de 2017 8:45<br/>
<b>Para:</b><span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span>Martin Rivas<br/>
<b>CC:</b><span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br/>
<b>Asunto:</b><span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span>Fwd: [General] A composite electron?</span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">Hello Martin, </div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">You must have been accidentally left off of the reply list. So I am forwarding Wolf’s latest reply which is directed partly to you. You can send any reply back to <a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org'; return false;" style="color: purple;text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank"><span style="color: purple;">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a> . You are also welcome to join the discussion group if you like.</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"> with warm regards,</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"> Richard</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">Begin forwarded message:</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;">From:<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;">Wolfgang Baer <<a href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='wolf@nascentinc.com'; return false;" style="color: purple;text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank"><span style="color: purple;">wolf@nascentinc.com</span></a>></span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;">Subject: Re: [General] A composite electron?</span></b></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;">Date:<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;">September 23, 2017 at 11:14:31 PM PDT</span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;">To:<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;"><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org'; return false;" style="color: purple;text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank"><span style="color: purple;">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a></span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;">Reply-To:<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Helvetica , sans-serif;">Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org'; return false;" style="color: purple;text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank"><span style="color: purple;">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</span></a>></span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">I looked at Martin's<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;color: rgb(31,73,125);"><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299636714_Kinematical_Theory_of_Elementary_Spinning_Particles_Lecture_Notes" style="color: purple;text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank"><span style="color: purple;">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299636714_Kinematical_Theory_of_Elementary_Spinning_Particles_Lecture_Notes</span></a></span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">and was<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">Quite interested in several problems he discussed. First the question of how to address charge separation from mass when charge cancels to a neutral. I’ve had the same thoughts that somehow one must treat the centers of positive and negative charge separately and then put them together. I do not know if he is listening but one idea I have been mulling through is that the sign of charge is somehow associated with the observers time , so that plus and minus charge is associated with before and after the observers now. Just a wiff of something going through my head.</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">The other however is the force relationship between the Lorenz force on one side and the Newtonian force on the mass<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">He then equates the two but that leaves a separate pull on a charge and one on a mass. So I’ve postulated a force holding the two together and approximated the force between charge and mass as Fcm and its opposite Fmc as two additional forces that must happen inside material and have been trying to connect them to the weak and strong force, but without success. Mainly because I do not know that much about elementary particles.</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"> But it is clear to me that we have two parallel systems of force categories when looking at material from the outside. One is Electromagnetic governed by Maxwell and the Lorenz force on charges the other is Gravito-inertial forces governed by Einstein<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">We just assume charge and mass must be held together or these two force types would operate completely independently and we would have nothing of the kind of material we actually experience.</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"> I’ve modeled such internal force simply by a spring with a spring constant that is infinity when we assume charge and mass are co located, but then as the spring constant become finite all kinds of interesting effects can happen. One I’ve asked Albrecht to look at is to see if we consider the Bohr atom and assume that the central force between proton and electron pulls the mass and charges apart slightly. The coulomb force would be a bit greater since the inertial balancing force would pull the mass outward.<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;"> <span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span>Would such a system account for the fine structure? And would we get Sommerfelds fine structure constant out of it. I do not have the background to do such a calculation but wish I could find someone who could do it or have a reference to someone who has done it.If you get any leads on thios kind of thing let me know</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">Perhaps Martin if you are listening could shed light on this problem with his Kinem,atic Theory of elementary particles?</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">best for now</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">Wolf</div>
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<pre style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";">Dr. Wolfgang Baer</pre>
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<pre style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";">Nascent Systems Inc.</pre>
<pre style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";">tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432</pre>
<pre style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";">E-mail <a href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='wolf@NascentInc.com'; return false;" style="color: purple;text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank"><span style="color: purple;">wolf@NascentInc.com</span></a></pre>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">On 9/22/2017 9:36 PM, Andrew Meulenberg wrote:</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 12.0pt;font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">Dear Wolf,</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 12.0pt;font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">This whole concept is new to me (only weeks old), so i can't recommend anything yet. I'm just trying to find the time to scan/read what looks promising. However, it may be something to draw a number of models together (given a little 'wiggle-room'). .<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><br/>
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One of the questions to be addressed is certainly on what holds the centers together. So, your thoughts could be very important. My first instinct is to look at the whirlpool effect as exemplified by the Falaco effect (see various papers<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><cite>like</cite><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;"><a href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0101098" style="color: purple;text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank"><cite><span style="color: purple;"> </span></cite><span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"><i><span style="color: purple;"> </span></i></span><span style="color: purple;">Falaco solitons, cosmic strings in a swimming pool</span></a> RM Kiehn - arXiv preprint gr-qc/0101098, 2001 -<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://arxiv.org/" style="color: purple;text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank"><span style="color: purple;">arxiv.org</span></a></span><cite>).</cite><span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span>I am slow with the mathematics; nevertheless, I find the concept to be useful and now I can apply it to the polarizability of, and forces between, two centers. My preference at the moment is to assume relativity and 3-space + time.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 12.0pt;font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">Richard has shown that his charged photon concept has wiggle room and therefore it is probably compatible with my present concepts (which also have wiggle room). Both of our models may be compatible with a 2-center model.<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><br/>
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I fear that Albrecht's twin particle model may not be given the wiggle room to incorporate the two-center model. If so, that is too bad, because both models might benefit from the comparison.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 12.0pt;font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">Since my twins were born, I have not had time to keep up with most of the discussions of this forum. (This lack of time is the result of a different 2-center model. Just this evening, I had two pair of glasses, which I had left on my laptop, nearly destroyed.) So pointing out important threads might be necessary to bring me up-to-speed on some of the things presented as they pertain to the present discussion.</p>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 9:20 PM, Wolfgang Baer <<a href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='wolf@nascentinc.com'; return false;" style="color: purple;text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank"><span style="color: purple;">wolf@nascentinc.com</span></a>> wrote:</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">Andrew:</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">I've been working on the concept of charge and mass center differences and forces thaT MAY HOLD THEM TOGETHER<span class="m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">You mention quite a few papers which one or which set would you recommend to find out more about what has been proposed?</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">And yes I have suggested this to Albrecht but he has not felt it was what he has in mind, his idea is that the two rotating chrges are purely a elecromagnetic strong or weak force, I cannot remember which</div>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">Wolf</div>
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<pre style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";">Dr. Wolfgang Baer</pre>
<pre style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";">Research Director</pre>
<pre style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";">Nascent Systems Inc.</pre>
<pre style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";">tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432</pre>
<pre style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family: "Courier New";">E-mail <a href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='wolf@NascentInc.com'; return false;" style="color: purple;text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank"><span style="color: purple;">wolf@NascentInc.com</span></a></pre>
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<div style="font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">On 9/20/2017 2:45 PM, Andrew Meulenberg wrote:</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 12.0pt;font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">Richard has expressed doubts about Albrecht's 2-body electron and Albrecht probably has reservations about Richard's charged photons.<br/>
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I just read a paper ("The dynamical equation of the spinning electron," J. Phys. A, 36, 4703, (2003), and also LANL ArXiv:physis/0112005, along.with some background papers) that Richard has referenced in his: The Dirac Equation and the Superluminal Electron Model (<a href="https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research#papers" style="color: purple;text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank"><span style="color: purple;">https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research#papers</span></a>). I found a concept with which I was previously unfamiliar: the centers of mass and charge being different. If this interesting concept is valid; then it might be possible that the two centers are the 'objects' that Albrecht has proposed for his composite electron. It might also apply to the charged photon.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0.0cm 0.0cm 12.0pt;font-size: 12.0pt;font-family: "Times New Roman" , serif;">Has anyone any comments on this concept (or n the author of the paper: Martin Rivas)?</p>
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