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<!--StartFragment--><p class="MsoNormal">Hello Andrew, Andr<span style="font-family: Arial;" class="">é</span> and all,<o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"> I’m also copying this to <span style="font-family:Arial" class="">André Michaud who is the author of “On De
Broglie’s Double-Particle Photon Hypothesis” at <a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.4172/2090-0902.1000153" class=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family:Times;color:#386EFF" class="">http://dx.doi.org/10.4172/2090-0902.1000153</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family:Times;
color:#0B5CAE" class=""> </span><span style="font-family:Arial" class="">, as well as
many other articles at <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andre_Michaud2" class=""><span style="color:#386EFF" class="">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andre_Michaud2</span></a>.
I have been in correspondence with André and hope he will share
some of his thoughts and insights on de Broglie’s double-particle photon model and his own
double-particle model also.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial" class="">Andrew, to try to answer some of your questions:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial" class=""> </span><span style="font-family: Arial;" class=""> 1. Yes, I
used the term “double helix” because a) it accurately describes my photon model
and b) the term has its own historical “charge” which I hope will help catch
potentially interested people’s attention.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial" class=""> </span><span style="font-family: Arial;" class=""> 2. The way I
see my double-helical photon model is as two oppositely charged point-like charges that are
helically circulating opposite each other (attracted by their mutual Coulomb
force) each at speed c sqrt(2) as in “Transluminal Energy Quantum Model of
a Spin-1/2 Charged Photon Composing an Electron" </span><span style="font-family: Arial; color: rgb(26, 26, 26);" class="">at <a href="https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research" class=""><span style="color:#386EFF" class="">https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research</span></a> .
The two circulating charges move forward longitudinally together as a composite photon at
light-speed, and generate electromagnetic/quantum waves that statistically predict the probability (photon’s wave-particle duality)
of finding the composite photon at a later time and place. This quantum wave approach is similar to what
the single helically-circulating single-charged photon-like object (that composes my
electron model) does as it moves helically and generates the de Broglie wavelength and
de Broglie waves along its longitudinal helical axis, as described in my
article “Electrons are spin-1/2 charged photons generating the de Broglie
wavelength”, also at <a href="https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research" class=""><span style="color:#386EFF" class="">https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research</span></a> .</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial" class=""> </span><font face="Arial" class=""> 3. The
charge of these two circulating half-photons forming a photon could vary. My preliminary (I hope
accurate) calculation gives the magnitude of their opposite charges when they form a photon as Q=e sqrt (2/alpha) =
16.6 e as they helically circulate opposite each other, each changing the transverse
(centripetal) momentum component of the other by their mutual Coulomb forces
(calculated with the formula F-coulomb = dp/dt = w p-transverse). This charge result suggests that
when the two half-photons separate in e-p production their charge drops from + and - 16.6e down to
+ and - 1e, which is insufficient to hold them in a double helical motion, so they separate to become an electron and a positron.</font></p><div class=""> Photons with E< 1022 KeV= 1.022 MeV would still have a + and a - charge on their respective half photons. This would be true for photons of any energy. The photon's wavelength lambda and helical radius lambda/2pi of each of the half-photons forming a photon (producing a distance D between the half-photon charges of lambda/pi) would change with photon energy, but not their charge (unless they are in the process of interacting with another particle such as an atomic nucleus).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> We need to look at the two-double-helically-circulating-charged-half-photons model of a photon to see if it can quantitatively explain light polarization and other electromagnetic properties of light. Photons when detected are circularly polarized with spin 1 or -1. These are the photons described in my 2-charged half-photons model. Photons (or polarized light) with other degrees of polarization are described by linear combinations of the quantum wave functions of spin 1 and spin -1 photons.</div><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<!--EndFragment--></div><div class=""><font face="Arial" class=""> 4. Creation, absorption and scattering of photons by electrons and vice versa (and therefore QED in general) can be looked at in terms of charged spin-1/2 half-photons (two of them forming a photon and one of them forming an electron or positron).</font></div><div class=""><font face="Arial" class=""><br class=""></font></div><div class=""><font face="Arial" class=""> 5. Photons move through coordinates of time and space (measured by observers) though they do not age in terms of their own invariant spacetime interval delta s since photons have zero mass. So the two half-photons forming a photon should also not age, at least while they are forming a photon. But a single half-photon forming an electron (or a radioactive mu or tau particle) WOULD age in order to decay (in the case of a mu or tau) with a particular statistical half-life (half-photons with half-lives?). A single photon seems to have an unlimited half-life.</font></div><div class=""><font face="Arial" class=""><br class=""></font></div><div class=""><font face="Arial" class="">Andrew, clearly there are many questions to be considered. I have only touched on some of yours. </font></div><div class=""><font face="Arial" class=""><br class=""></font></div><div class=""><font face="Arial" class="">I am also interested is comparing and contrasting this superluminal double-helical two spin-1/2 half-photons model of a photon with Andr</font><span style="font-family: Arial;" class="">é's</span><font face="Arial" class=""> 2016 two spin-1/2 half-photons tri-space model of a photon and de Broglie’s 1933 two spin-1/2 half-photons hypothesis for a photon. Are there any other composite models of a photon? I also need to get an initial article out on my 2 half-photons photon model ASAP.</font></div><div class=""><font face="Arial" class=""><br class=""></font></div><div class=""><font face="Arial" class="">Richard</font></div><div class=""><span style="font-family: Arial;" class=""> </span></div>
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<!--StartFragment-->
<!--EndFragment--><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 11, 2017, at 9:53 AM, Andrew Meulenberg <<a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" class="">mules333@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><div class="">Dear Richard,<br class=""><br class=""></div>Your use of<span class=""> the term "double helix" (for a photon consisting of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="">a pair of spin-1/2 charged half-photons) certainly has a popular precedent that refers to the structure formed by double-stranded molecules of nucleic acids such as DNA. A few comments:<br class=""></span><ol class=""><li class=""><span class=""></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Such a model certainly is no less supported than mine of a 'rectifiable' photon. In both cases, bifurcation of a photon of sufficient energy leads to the lepton pair.</li><li class="">I would suggest that your proposal for 1/2 photon charge >e is unnecessary, since like the DNA molecule, the photon would be composed of 2 'strings' of spatially-matched interacting 'point sources'.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></li><ul class=""><li class="">Each point would be only a minute charge.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></li><li class="">The strings of point sources are modeled by sinusoidal field distributions; but, I don't think that distribution shape is written in stone.</li></ul><li class="">If we talk about charges, instead of field distributions, then I think that we are too closely bound by 'similarity' rather than by the mathematics (or the reality?).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></li><ul class=""><li class="">An electron is a unique (resonant)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">E</b>-field distribution that we call charge.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></li><li class="">Is it required that a photon have that same distribution built into it?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></li><li class="">Do photons with E < 1022 keV, have charge?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></li><ul class=""><li class="">They certainly have<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">E</b>-fields.</li><li class="">Are they polarizable? Why, or why not? (Is this the source of virtual lepton pairs and the dielectric properties of space?)<br class=""></li><li class="">Are they separable? Why, or why not?</li><li class="">If separated, what charge do they have?</li><li class="">I think that a lot more attention needs to be paid to the formation of photons (see below as a start).<br class=""></li></ul><li class="">Are 1/2 photons of a photon with E > 1022 keV:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></li><ul class=""><li class="">separable by anything other than strong<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">E</b>-fields?</li><li class="">polarizable. If this is the source of virtual lepton pairs, is the only thing preventing pair separation (virtual becoming real) the conservation of energy and momentum?</li></ul></ul><li class="">.We need to look at the creation of photons from other than the special case of lepton annihilation:</li><ul class=""><li class="">Assuming dipole radiation, is charge created by, or extracted from, the dipole or its motion?</li><ul class=""><li class="">strong fields can be created by the dipole motion.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></li><ul class=""><li class="">Resonant conditions can create photons.</li><li class="">Can the special resonant conditions of unique charge exist?<br class=""></li></ul></ul><li class="">Either way, energy is removed from the dipole. Is charge?<br class=""></li></ul><li class="">The whole area of time for a photon is problematic.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></li><ul class=""><li class="">If time does not exist, then how do we get the forces (F = dp/dt) required to hold them together (or keep them apart)?<br class=""></li><li class="">how can they separate? That is also a time-dependent phenomenon.</li><li class="">In a medium, the velocity of light decreases. Does this allow time to 'flow'?</li><li class="">Is space a medium? If so is the limit for time to contract to zero, only mathematical?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></li><li class="">In an absorbing medium, where anomalous dispersion allows a photon velocity to exceed c, is the Lorentz contraction adjusted for the refractive index 'n' and the limiting velocity to be nc or do all things become imaginary?</li></ul></ol><p class="">Probably more comments than you wanted.</p><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="">Andrew M.</p><p class="">__________________<br class=""></p><div class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 12:59 AM, Richard Gauthier<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">Hello Andrew and all,<div class=""><br class=""><div class=""> De Broglie proposed his 2 spin-1/2 particle photon idea (not sure if he also had a model for this) in the early 30’s in his book "La Physique Nouvelle et les Quanta” (available free at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://archive.org/" target="_blank" class="">archive.org</a>) and in English translation as "<a class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636a-link-normal" href="https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007G309U/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1" target="_blank" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(0, 102, 192); font-family: 'Amazon Ember', Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">The revolution in physics: A non-mathematical survey of quanta</a>”, available at <a href="http://amazon.com/" target="_blank" class="">Amazon.com</a>. With the help of Google Translate (slightly edited) I give below what de Broglle wrote on this (p. 277-278 in the French edition):</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">From these general remarks, we have concluded that, in order to constitute a theory of the photon, we must first use a relativistic </span> </pre></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">form of wave mechanics comprising elements of symmetry due to polarization and, secondly, introduce something to differentiate </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">the photon from the other particles. The first part of this program is realized immediately by using the theory of the electron of </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">Dirac that we studied previously. We know that Dirac's theory is relativistic and that it contains elements of symmetry with a marked </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">kinship with those of the polarization of light. Nevertheless, it was not sufficient to suppose that the photon is a particle of negligible </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">mass obeying the equations of the Dirac theory, for the model of the photon thus obtained would have, so to speak, only half the </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">symmetry of the real photon; moreover, it would, like the electron, apparently obey Fermi statistics and could not be annihilated in </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">the photoelectric effect. We need something more.</span></pre><div style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""></div><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">This something more, we tried to introduce on the assumption that the photon is constituted not of a Dirac particle, but of two.</span><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class=""> </span><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">It can </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">be realized that these two particles or half-photons must be complementary to each other in the same sense as the positive electron </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">is complementary to the negative electron in Dirac</span><span style="font-family: 'ＭＳ 明朝'; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">'</span><span lang="EN" style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">s hole theory.</span><span lang="EN" style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class=""> </span><span lang="EN" style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">Such a pair of complementary particles is liable to annihilate itself </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">by contact with matter and yielding all its energy, and this perfectly accounts for the characteristics of the photoelectric effect.</span><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class=""> </span><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">Moreover, </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">the photon then being constituted by two elementary particles with spin h/4pi must obey Bose-Einstein statistics, as required by the </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">accuracy of Planck's law for black-body radiation.</span><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class=""> </span><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">Finally, this photon model makes it possible to define an electromagnetic field linked </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">to the probability of annihilation of the photon, a field which obeys Maxwell</span><span style="font-family: 'ＭＳ 明朝'; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">’</span><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">s equations and possesses all the characteristics of the </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">electromagnetic light wave. Although it is still premature to pronounce definitively on the value of this attempt, it is indisputable that it </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">leads to interesting results and that it heavily draws attention to the properties of symmetry of complementary particles whose existence, </span></pre></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><pre style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class="">suggested by the Dirac theory, was verified by the discovery of the positive electron.</span><span style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></pre><pre class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-family: inherit, serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);" class=""><br class=""></span></pre></div><div class="">So what I have called in the past a spin-1/2 charged photon I now think should be called a spin-1/2 charged half-photon, since two of them (one positive and one negative) would move in a double helix to form a spin 1 photon which helps generate electromagnetic waves. This renaming should also solve the semantic problem of the name of this superluminal charged spin-1/2 particle , which I would no longer consider to be a variety of photon, since it would take two of them to make a photon. Such a photon model could easily generate an electron-positron pair when near an atomic nucleus that absorbs excess momentum (creating two rest masses) and splits a sufficiently energetic photon into an e-p pair. Comments? </div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="gmail-"><div class="">On Oct 2, 2017, at 5:20 AM, Andrew Meulenberg <<a href="mailto:mules333@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">mules333@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636Apple-interchange-newline"></span><div class=""><div class="gmail-h5"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div>Dear Folks,<br class=""><br class=""></div>The composite electron model has a history of which I was not aware. From mid-right column of page 4 of (free access):<br class=""><div class=""><div class=""><a href="https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/" target="_blank" class="">https://www.omicsonline.org/<wbr class="">open-access/</a><b class="">the-last-<wbr class="">challenge-of-modern-physics</b>-<wbr class="">2090-0902-1000217.php?aid=<wbr class="">87682<br class=""><br class=""><div style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">Louis de Broglie elaborated a most promising hypothesis to help</span><br class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">explain these special characteristics of the photon [7]. Having analyzed</span><br class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">them in light of the verifed aspects of the various pertaining theories,</span><br class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">he eventually concluded that the only way for an electromagnetic</span><br class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">photon to satisfy at the same time Bose-Einstein's statistic and Planck's</span><br class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">law, and to perfectly explain the photoelectric effect while obeying</span><br class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">Maxwell's equations and conforming to the symmetry property of</span><br class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">complementary corpuscles in Dirac's Hole Theory, would be for it to</span><br class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">be made not of one corpuscle, but of two corpuscles, or half-photons,</span><br class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">that would be complementary, like the electron is complementary to</span><br class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">the positron in Dirac's Hole Theory [15].<br class=""><br class=""></span><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">This conclusion mandates the association of charges (possibly<br class="">unsigned) to each half-photon, and consequently to the photon itself, ...</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""> <br class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><div style="margin-left: 40px;" class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">7. Michaud A (2016) On De Broglie’s Double-particle Photon Hypothesis. J Phys</span><br class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">Math 7: 153.</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">15. De Broglie L (1937) New physics and quanta, Flammarion, 2</span><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0" style="font-size: 4pt;">nd<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">1993 new</span><br class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636gmail-fontstyle0">Preface.<br class=""></span></div></div><br class=""></div><div class="">This would imply that, historically, the Nature of Light is even more curious than most of us thought.<br class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Andrew M.<br class=""></div><div class=""> <br style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Richard Gauthier<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Hello Martin (and all),</p><p class="MsoNormal"> Thank you for this summary of your CC-CM approach to a moving particle such as an electron. My approach to modeling an electron is quite similar to yours, except that in my approach the CC (center of charge) is the position of a light-speed spin-1/2 charged quantum particle that I call a choton. It is in circular motion in a resting electron and moves helically in a moving electron. The linear momentum of the choton in a resting electron is Po=mc=2.73x10^-22 kg m/s = 0.511 MeV/c (and its energy is mc^2= 0.511 MeV) and this momentum mc circles with radius Ro= L-compton/4pi = hbar/2mc = 1.93x10^-13m at the zitterbewegung frequency f-zitt=2mc^2/h. The choton’s average position as the choton circles around is what you call the CM (center of mass). In a resting electron the choton (at the position CC) and the CM are separated by the distance Ro, with the choton circling around its CM at the zitter frequency. Due to its circular motion with its changing momentum direction, the choton appears to be acted on by a centripetal force Fc=dp/dt = w Po = w-zitt Po = 0.424 N , where w-zitt (omega-zitt) = 2 mc^2/hbar = 1.55 x 10^21 rad/sec. The choton’s centripetal acceleration A-cent in this circular motion in a resting electron is A-cent = r w^2 = Ro (w-zitt)^2 = 4.66x10^29 m/s^2. My article “Derivation of the inertial mass m=Eo/c^2 of an electron composed of a circling spin-1/2 charge photon” at <a href="https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research%23papers" target="_blank" class="">https://richardgaut<wbr class="">hier.academia.edu/research#<wbr class="">papers</a> (4<sup class="">th</sup> article) also shows that the above circling choton (spin-1/2 charged photon) has an inertial mass m = Eo/c^2 = 0.511MeV/c^2 derived from its circling momentum mc=Eo/c.</p><p class="MsoNormal"> When no external force (besides the apparent 0.424 N central force) acts on the choton, the moving electron model moves longitudinally with velocity<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">v</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and with momentum<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">p</b>=gamma m<b class="">v</b>. The choton circulates with its longitudinal momentum component P-long = gamma mv, which is the electron’s linear momentum, and with a transverse momentum component P-trans = Po = mc. Using the Pythagorean equation, this gives the choton’s total momentum directed along its helical trajectory as P-total^2 = P-long^2 + P-trans^2 = (gamma mv)^2 + (mc)^2 = (gamma mc)^2, or P-total = gamma mc. The choton’s corresponding total energy is E-total = P-total c = gamma mc^2, which is the same as a relativistic electron’s total energy. </p><h4 style="margin: 0in 0in 9pt;" class=""><span style="font-weight: normal;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>When an external electric field<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>E<span style="font-weight: normal;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>acts on the circulating choton, the choton (with its inertial mass m=0.511 MeV/c^2) is accelerated by a net force<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Fnet<span style="font-weight: normal;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>equal to the rapidly rotating centripetal force<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Fc<span style="font-weight: normal;" class="">= 0.424 N plus the external force<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>F<span style="font-weight: normal;" class="">=-e</span>E.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="">The total force on the choton is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Fnet<span style="font-weight: normal;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>=<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Fc<span style="font-weight: normal;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>+ e</span>E<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="">= m<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>a-total<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="">in the non-relativistic case or<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Fnet<span style="font-weight: normal;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>= d</span>p-total<span style="font-weight: normal;" class="">/dt in the relativistic case. The choton’s helical motion (the motion of the CC) will be changed by the external electric field<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>E<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="">acting on the choton, and the choton’s CM (average position) will be affected accordingly, and move in the direction of the applied external force<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>E<span style="font-weight: normal;" class="">.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></h4><h4 style="margin: 0in 0in 9pt;" class=""><span style="font-weight: normal;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>There are also quantum mechanical features of the above motion. As the choton changes its helical trajectory due to the applied electric field<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>E<span style="font-weight: normal;" class="">, the choton’s transverse momentum component P-trans = mc adjusts its orientation so that P-trans continues to be transverse to the choton’s new longitudinal motion with its new longitudinal component velocity<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>v’<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="">(the new electron velocity). In this way the calculated spin of the choton electron model continues to be Ro x Po = hbar/2 and the Pythogorean momentum relation continues to be P-total^2 = P-long^2 + P-trans^2 (which is mathematically equivalent to the relativistic energy-momentum equation E^2 = p^2 c^2 +m^2 c4). Further information on the spin-1/2 charged photon model is at “Electron’s are spin 1/2 charged photons generating the de Broglie wavelength” at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research#papers" target="_blank" class="">https://richardgauthier.academ<wbr class="">ia.edu/research#papers</a> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(19<sup class="">th</sup><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>article).<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></h4><h4 style="margin: 0in 0in 9pt;" class=""><span style="font-weight: normal;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>In summary, the choton electron model does not need to be a rigid body to maintain the relation between CC and CM. All forces (including the apparent centripetal force F-cent) act on the choton (at the CC), which has its own inertial mass, producing the choton’s acceleration and average center of mass position CM. </span><span style="font-size: 15pt; color: rgb(35, 35, 35); font-weight: normal;" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></h4><div class=""><span style="font-weight: normal;" class="">with warm regards,</span></div><div class=""><span style="font-weight: normal;" class=""> Richard</span></div></div><div class=""> </div><div class=""> </div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 25, 2017, at 2:18 AM, Martin Rivas <<a href="mailto:martin.rivas@ehu.es" target="_blank" class="">martin.rivas@ehu.es</a>> wrote:</div><br class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336WordSection1" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Dear Wolfgang and Richard,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Thank you for your interest. I will try an answer to your hints and questions.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">In my opinion there is no need to find a mechanism for binding together the center of mass and center of charge<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">of the electron.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">For any arbitrary mechanical system, once the total external force F is determined, we use this total<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">force to compute the trajectory of the CM by considering that this point (CM) is a point particle of mass<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">m, the total mass of the system, and solve the corresponding differential equations dp/dt=F. The linear momentum p<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">is expressed in terms of the CM velocity v, as usual p=mv in a non-relativistic framework, or p=gamma(v)mv<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">in a relativistic one.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">This is known as the center of mass theorem.<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">In the case of an elementary particle the hypothesis is that the interacting property, the charge,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">either electric, weak or strong charge, can be associated to a single point, the center of charge.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">An elementary particle is such a simple system that its interacting structure can be reduced to a single<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">point (the CC) and no further multipoles.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">To know the position of this point is important to determine from there the fields produced by the elementary<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">particle and also, by assumption, the force produced by the external fields on the particle, which is<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">just the evaluation of the external fields at the particle center of charge.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">In the Preamble of my Notes I consider as an example the possibility that an elementary particle can be<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">considered as a rigid body. All electromagnetic structure can be reduced to a single point, the CC.<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">But this point is by assumption a different point than the CM. What we get is that once the trajectory<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">of the CC is determined,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">the trajectory of the CM can also be computed as an average trajectory of the other. And we have not to worry<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">about how these two points are bound together. We can also compute the trajectory of the CM as usual,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">as a Newtonian equation, but the total external force is not defined at the CM but rather at the CC.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">The CC satisfies fourth order differential equations which have helical solutions, so that the center<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">of the helix corresponds to the CM trajectory.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">In this way there is no need in this formalism to consider that an elementary particle<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">to be a helically-moving charged photon-like object. It can be reduced to a single point, the CC.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">But three degrees of freedom are not sufficient to describe spin 1/2 objects.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Later I need some extra three degrees of freedom to describe orientation, so that an elementary<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">particle becomes a localized and orientable mechanical system. The particle moves and rotates.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">From the quantum mechanical point of view we need the orientation variables to have spin operators<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">with 1/2 spectrum. The analysis in the preamble shows that if the two centers are different points, then<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">the CC has to be moving at an unreachable velocity for every inertial observer. This is the speed of light but we have<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">no photons moving around. Just the motion of the CC.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">At this stage of the formalism what we have are electromagnetic forces. Gravity is absent by assumption<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">because we are in a Restricted Relativity Principle framework. The electromagnetic forces are computed in terms<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">of the motions of the CC's of the particles that interact.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Bohr atom.<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">The usual conception that the electron, in the ground state, describes an orbit,<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">either circular or elliptic trajectory around the CM of the proton is misleading.<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">The reason is that in the ground state of the atom, the orbital angular momentum of the electron is L=0. It is a S-state.<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Literally it means from the classical point of view that the linear momentum of the electron,<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">and therefore the trajectory of the CM of<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">the electron, has to be pointing always to the CM of the proton. It has to be a back and forth trajectory<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">around the CM of the proton, a straight trajectory. This is impossible for a spinless point particle because<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">the two particles will collide at the common CM. But if the electron has two separate points,<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">there is no problem that the motion of the CM of the electron go through the CM of the proton, while the CC<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">of both particles will never meet each other. For the electron the separation between CM and CC is 10^{-13} m,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">while the estimated size of the proton is smaller, around 10^{-15} m, 100 times smaller.<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">The CC of the electron will never collide with the charge of the proton.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Best regards<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Martin<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="">De:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span>Richard Gauthier [<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com</a><wbr class="">]<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Enviado el:</b><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span>lunes, 25 de septiembre de 2017 4:50<br class=""><b class="">Para:</b><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class=""><b class="">CC:</b><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span>Martin Rivas; David Hestenes<br class=""><b class="">Asunto:</b><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] A composite electron?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div></div></div><div class=""><div class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636h5"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Hello Martin,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> I would like to know if you have ever considered your helically-moving-lightspeed-ch<wbr class="">arge electron model (which is similar to David Hestene's helically-moving-lightspeed-ch<wbr class="">arge zitter electron model) to be a helically-moving charged photon-like object (which I call a “choton” — rhymes with “photon" -- for “charged photon”). A helically-moving lightspeed charged photon-like object would have its inertial mass centered on its helical axis (as in your electron model) and so It seems that it would be quite similar in many ways to your electron model, including having the electron's spin 1/2 due to its helical radius of hbar/2mc. Furthermore, a helically-circling charged photon-like object would have the ability to generate the electron’s relativistic de Broglie wavelength L-db= h/(gamma mv) due to its wave motion (and wavelength lambda = h/(gamma mc) for a relativistic electron of energy E=gamma mc^2 = hf= hc/lambda) along its helical trajectory.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thanks,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Richard<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On Sep 24, 2017, at 12:20 PM, Martin Rivas <<a href="mailto:martin.rivas@ehu.es" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">martin.rivas@ehu.es</a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Tank you Richard,</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Best regards</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Martin</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="">De:</span></b><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class="">Richard Gauthier [<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com</a><wbr class="">]<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Enviado el:</b><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span>domingo, 24 de septiembre de 2017 8:45<br class=""><b class="">Para:</b><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span>Martin Rivas<br class=""><b class="">CC:</b><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br class=""><b class="">Asunto:</b><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span>Fwd: [General] A composite electron?</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Hello Martin, <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">You must have been accidentally left off of the reply list. So I am forwarding Wolf’s latest reply which is directed partly to you. You can send any reply back to <a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">general@lists.natureoflight<wbr class="">andparticles.org</span></a> . You are also welcome to join the discussion group if you like.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> with warm regards,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Richard<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Begin forwarded message:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">From:<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Wolfgang Baer <<a href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">wolf@nascentinc.com</span></a>></span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Subject: Re: [General] A composite electron?</span></b><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Date:<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">September 23, 2017 at 11:14:31 PM PDT</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">To:<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">general@lists.natureofligh<wbr class="">tandparticles.org</span></a></span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Reply-To:<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">general@lists.natureoflightan<wbr class="">dparticles.org</span></a>></span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">I looked at Martin's<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299636714_Kinematical_Theory_of_Elementary_Spinning_Particles_Lecture_Notes" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">https://www.researchgate.net/p<wbr class="">ublication/299636714_Kinematic<wbr class="">al_Theory_of_Elementary_<wbr class="">Spinning_Particles_Lecture_<wbr class="">Notes</span></a></span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">and was<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Quite interested in several problems he discussed. First the question of how to address charge separation from mass when charge cancels to a neutral. I’ve had the same thoughts that somehow one must treat the centers of positive and negative charge separately and then put them together. I do not know if he is listening but one idea I have been mulling through is that the sign of charge is somehow associated with the observers time , so that plus and minus charge is associated with before and after the observers now. Just a wiff of something going through my head.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">The other however is the force relationship between the Lorenz force on one side and the Newtonian force on the mass<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">He then equates the two but that leaves a separate pull on a charge and one on a mass. So I’ve postulated a force holding the two together and approximated the force between charge and mass as Fcm and its opposite Fmc as two additional forces that must happen inside material and have been trying to connect them to the weak and strong force, but without success. Mainly because I do not know that much about elementary particles.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> But it is clear to me that we have two parallel systems of force categories when looking at material from the outside. One is Electromagnetic governed by Maxwell and the Lorenz force on charges the other is Gravito-inertial forces governed by Einstein<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">We just assume charge and mass must be held together or these two force types would operate completely independently and we would have nothing of the kind of material we actually experience.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> I’ve modeled such internal force simply by a spring with a spring constant that is infinity when we assume charge and mass are co located, but then as the spring constant become finite all kinds of interesting effects can happen. One I’ve asked Albrecht to look at is to see if we consider the Bohr atom and assume that the central force between proton and electron pulls the mass and charges apart slightly. The coulomb force would be a bit greater since the inertial balancing force would pull the mass outward.<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span>Would such a system account for the fine structure? And would we get Sommerfelds fine structure constant out of it. I do not have the background to do such a calculation but wish I could find someone who could do it or have a reference to someone who has done it.If you get any leads on thios kind of thing let me know<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Perhaps Martin if you are listening could shed light on this problem with his Kinem,atic Theory of elementary particles?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">best for now<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Wolf<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Dr. Wolfgang Baer<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Research Director<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Nascent Systems Inc.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">E-mail <a href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">wolf@NascentInc.com</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On 9/22/2017 9:36 PM, Andrew Meulenberg wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div><blockquote type="cite" style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Dear Wolf,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">This whole concept is new to me (only weeks old), so i can't recommend anything yet. I'm just trying to find the time to scan/read what looks promising. However, it may be something to draw a number of models together (given a little 'wiggle-room'). .<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">One of the questions to be addressed is certainly on what holds the centers together. So, your thoughts could be very important. My first instinct is to look at the whirlpool effect as exemplified by the Falaco effect (see various papers<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><cite class="">like</cite><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><a href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0101098" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><cite class=""><span style="color: purple;" class=""> </span></cite><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"><i class=""><span style="color: purple;" class=""> </span></i></span><span style="color: purple;" class="">Falaco solitons, cosmic strings in a swimming pool</span></a> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>RM Kiehn - arXiv preprint gr-qc/0101098, 2001 -<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://arxiv.org/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">arxiv.org</span></a></span><cite class="">).</cite><span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span>I am slow with the mathematics; nevertheless, I find the concept to be useful and now I can apply it to the polarizability of, and forces between, two centers. My preference at the moment is to assume relativity and 3-space + time.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Richard has shown that his charged photon concept has wiggle room and therefore it is probably compatible with my present concepts (which also have wiggle room). Both of our models may be compatible with a 2-center model.<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">I fear that Albrecht's twin particle model may not be given the wiggle room to incorporate the two-center model. If so, that is too bad, because both models might benefit from the comparison.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Since my twins were born, I have not had time to keep up with most of the discussions of this forum. (This lack of time is the result of a different 2-center model. Just this evening, I had two pair of glasses, which I had left on my laptop, nearly destroyed.) So pointing out important threads might be necessary to bring me up-to-speed on some of the things presented as they pertain to the present discussion.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Andrew M.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">_________________<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 9:20 PM, Wolfgang Baer <<a href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">wolf@nascentinc.com</span></a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Andrew:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">I've been working on the concept of charge and mass center differences and forces thaT MAY HOLD THEM TOGETHER<span class="gmail-m_3666464646133273636m_-1158051194164779336apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">You mention quite a few papers which one or which set would you recommend to find out more about what has been proposed?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">And yes I have suggested this to Albrecht but he has not felt it was what he has in mind, his idea is that the two rotating chrges are purely a elecromagnetic strong or weak force, I cannot remember which<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Wolf<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Dr. Wolfgang Baer<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Research Director<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Nascent Systems Inc.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">E-mail <a href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">wolf@NascentInc.com</span></a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></pre><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On 9/20/2017 2:45 PM, Andrew Meulenberg wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote type="cite" style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Dear Richard and Albrecht,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Richard has expressed doubts about Albrecht's 2-body electron and Albrecht probably has reservations about Richard's charged photons.<br class=""><br class="">I just read a paper ("The dynamical equation of the spinning electron," J. Phys. A, 36, 4703, (2003), and also LANL ArXiv:physis/0112005, along.with some background papers) that Richard has referenced in his: The Dirac Equation and the Superluminal Electron Model (<a href="https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research#papers" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">https://richardgauthier.acade<wbr class="">mia.edu/research#papers</span></a>). I found a concept with which I was previously unfamiliar: the centers of mass and charge being different. If this interesting concept is valid; then it might be possible that the two centers are the 'objects' that Albrecht has proposed for his composite electron. It might also apply to the charged photon.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Has anyone any comments on this concept (or n the author of the paper: Martin Rivas)?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Andrew M<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div></div></div><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; 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