<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Standard definition of photon: "<span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: arial, sans-serif;" class="">a particle representing a quantum of light or other electromagnetic radiation. A photon carries energy proportional to the radiation frequency but has zero rest mass."</span><div class=""><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2" class=""><br class=""></font></div><div class=""><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2" class=""><br class=""></font></div><div class=""><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2" class="">Since a electron has a rest mass m, it cannot be composed of a photon, which has zero rest mass. But it can be composed of a half-photon having a circling momentum mc=Eo/c, which would have, starting from Newton’s 2nd law F=dP/dt= wP = m A-centripetal, a rest mass m=Eo/c^2 .</font></div><div class=""><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2" class=""> Richard.</font></div><div class=""><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2" class=""><br class=""></font><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 16, 2017, at 7:12 AM, Dr Grahame Blackwell <<a href="mailto:grahame@starweave.com" class="">grahame@starweave.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Arial" class="">Chip an' All,</font></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Arial" class=""></font> </div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Arial" class="">A few 'assumptions' in your response below, Chip, that I would regard as verging on dogma rather than science.</font></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Arial" class=""></font> </div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Arial" class="">It's my understanding that a photon is a packet (quantum) of time-varying waveform electromagnetic energy. Period. By that definition there's absolutely nothing stopping such a quantum 'chasing its own tail' (or more properly, self-interfering so as to hold a circular path, once so constrained); there's nothing stopping such a localised manifestation of such energy exhibiting the quality of 'charge' as an artefact of its electric and magnetic fields (note that 'charge' is simply an effect, it's not any more defined than that - and that effect MUST travel with the TEM wave, including conforming with interference effects (since interference is de facto for electrons), so it MUST (IMO) be an artefact OF that wave); if we say that a photon does not EXHIBIT charge effects, rather than 'POSSESSING charge' (whatever that may mean), I'd say no, in its rectilinear form it doesn't - but we're discussing a different topology of the same EM quantum; likewise a rectilinear EM quantum doesn't exhibit 1/2 hbar spin - but consider a rock travelling in a straight line then that same rock being whirled around in a circle on the end of a rope...</font></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Arial" class=""></font> </div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font size="2" class=""><font color="#000080" face="Arial" class="">As for "a photon does not have the capacity to be fully confined in three dimensions" - how do you know that??? This is a statement of belief, not of science. [Eddington famously said of Chandrasekhar's findings: "I cannot believe that a star would behave in such a manner" - and so held back advances on our understanding of black holes for decades.]</font></font></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Arial" class=""></font> </div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Arial" class="">Ok, semantics - but don't let's allow semantics to limit our open-mindedness with regard to truly scientific possibilities.</font></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Arial" class=""></font> </div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Arial" class="">Best regards,</font></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#000080" size="2" face="Arial" class="">Grahame</font></div><blockquote style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 128); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;" class="" type="cite"><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: arial;" class="">----- Original Message -----<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: arial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="chipakins@gmail.com" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Chip Akins</a></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: arial;" class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'</a></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: arial;" class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, October 16, 2017 12:54 PM</div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: arial;" class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Interference of Photons</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class="">Hi Grahame<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class=""> </span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class="">Yes. Perhaps semantics is getting in the way regarding a photon within an electron.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class="">It seems that the correct half of what makes a photon would possess a single polarity of electric charge. That is a portion of my objection to using the term photon for this form of energy. A photon does not possess a single polarity of charge. But a photon does not have the capacity to be fully confined in three dimensions and exhibit ½ hbar spin either.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class="">So to me, so much has to be different from the properties of a photon, that calling this propagating energy within the electron a photon is not really an accurate or clear description. But if one want to imagine that a photon can have charge, and a photon can be fully confined (not travel in a straight line at c), and can possess ½ hbar spin, then they could still call this thing a photon. Just doesn’t seem correct to me.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class=""> </span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class="">Chip<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class=""> </span></div><div class=""><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225);" class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Dr Grahame Blackwell<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, October 16, 2017 6:37 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Interference of Photons<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Hi Chip & all,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Having written of an electron as being a cyclic-photon construct, I have to agree with Chip that there are compelling reasons why a linear photon could not by itself form an electron. My concept of a 'cyclic photon' is that of an electromagnetic waveform like a linear photon, but constrained by its own electromagnetic field interactions to travel in a cyclic path rather than linearly. In my parlance this doesn't make it 'not a photon' - it depends on whether one's definition of a photon is necessarily something that travels in a straight line or whether one regards it simply as a packet of electromagnetic energy in the form of a self-propagating time-varying electromagnetic field effect: the latter is my understanding of the term.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;" class="">So whilst I don't totally agree with Chip's view that there isn't a photon circulating in (or rather AS) an electron, this is due to our differing views on what constitutes a photon - it appears that we're agreed on what constitutes an electron. I'm also fully in agreement with Chip (and all experimental evidence that I know of) that two half-photons (of requisite energy) can form an electron.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Best regards,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Grahame</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: navy; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt;" class="" type="cite"><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class="">----- Original Message -----<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228);" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="chipakins@gmail.com" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Chip Akins</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class="">To:</span></b><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'</a><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, October 16, 2017 12:20 PM<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Interference of Photons<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class="">Hi John M and Vivian<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class=""> </span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class="">First,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">Vivian</b>. I am and exception apparently, for I do not believe there is a photon circulating inside an electron. To me the evidence indicates that a whole photon cannot become an electron. The whole photon does not possess the properties it takes to be confined to become and electron. Two half photons could become an electron.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class=""> </span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><b class="">John M</b><span style="" class="">. One thing I wanted to mention is related to your comment…<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class="">“My model obtains the exact force between two particles at any separation if they had Planck charge rather than charge<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">e.</i>”<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class="">This is because the model of space as a two component tension medium suggested, obtains the exact force between two particles at any separation, and this is precisely the force of the elementary charge.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class=""> </span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class="">So I will take a look at the gravitational force between two electrons using this model and get back to you.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class=""> </span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class="">Chip<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin: 0in 0in 0pt; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="" class=""> </span></div></blockquote></div><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr class=""><div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:grahame@starweave.com" style="color: purple; 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