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<div class="userStyles" style=" font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000;">Hi Albrecht,<br>
<br>
It seems that you "assume" that de Broglie deduced his wave from considerations about relativity.<br>
<br>
To my knowledge, this is not the case.<br>
<br>
If you can substanciate your claim by referring us to a verifiable text from de Broglie that explains his deduction from SR, this would be greatly appreciated. I am still in learning mode.<br>
<br>
Best Regards
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<footer class="signatureContainer" style="display:inline;">---<br>
André Michaud<br>
GSJournal admin<br>
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http://www.srpinc.org/</footer>
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<br>
<span>On Fri, 24 Nov 2017 23:25:09 +0100, Albrecht Giese <phys@a-giese.de> wrote:</phys@a-giese.de></span><br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi André, Chip, and all,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">if we discuss de Broglie's concept of a particle wave, we should in my view refer to his original work and not to others who have used the results (well understood or misunderstood) in other applications.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, de Broglie in original:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">It is of course correct that de Broglie did not just “assume” his wave but he has deduced it from considerations about relativity. But his deduction is based on a severe error as I have explained in detail earlier. So, let’s do it again. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">De Broglie has seen a logical conflict between the Einstein- Planck relation (1) E=h*frequency and (2) relativistic dilation; because according to (1) the frequency has to increase at motion and according to (2) dilation will cause the frequency to decrease. But his concern is an error as this conflict does not exist. Because we have to look at an interaction of particles, which is the relevant situation. Any interaction sees frequencies which are increased by the Doppler effect. And the Doppler effect gives an over-compensation of the normal relativistic slow down so that both frequencies above will fit on their own. The same result is achieved if the temporal Lorentz transformation is properly applied. - For de Broglie's new wave no justification </span><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">exists </span><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">at all.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">The comment of two of you that a single electron does not produce an interference pattern is of course correct. One electron only produces one dot on the screen. But if we assume that a bunch of electron flies to the multi-slit with same speed then the argument works. There will be an interference pattern behind the multi-slit. But if we transform the experiment into the frame of the electrons then the momentum of the electrons is zero, and so the wavelength is infinite, and seen from that frame no interference pattern can occur. But it does occur, also visible for a co-moving observer, and that shows that de Broglie's idea is erroneous. - I have shown in calculations (but not in this place) why under certain circumstances the impression occurs that de Broglie is correct. But in general it is wrong. De Broglie's approach violates Galileo's relativity as well as Lorentzian relativity. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">You have mentioned the good results of the use of the de Broglie wave to determine the quantization of atomic orbits. It is true that it works, but it has a similar problem like for the scattering of electrons. Assume a hydrogen atom moving into axial direction with a similar speed as the speed of the electrons in the orbits. Then the resulting momentum of the orbiting electrons increases by about 40% seen from the frame at rest. So the de Broglie wavelength has to decrease by this factor and the energy of these states has to change accordingly. But in practice there will be a much smaller energy change. So also in this case de Broglie fails at a more thorough look.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">In the mails there have been some considerations about what de Broglie did "have in mind". But what he had in mind he has written in his PhD thesis. Anything about the energy states of atoms came later and by others (like Schrödinger and Bohr).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Now I will be wondering about objecting arguments.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">Albrecht</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">I thank you for your answers and arguments. I will now answer to it, of course. Which means to repeat my arguments of the last three weeks here where I have given argument which seem to have been overlooked.</span></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 24.11.2017 um 01:20 schrieb Richard Gauthier:</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:D78FBFC1-DB41-4483-AC67-C972ED75137A@gmail.com" type="cite"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">Hi John,<span style="font-family: Arial;">André, Chip and all,</span>
<div>Deriving the de Broglie wavelength of an electron model without superluminal motion is easy (in hindsight, since de Broglie did it using special relativity.) But try getting, without superluminal motion, the spin-1 of a non-pointlike photon model (for a photon-in-a-box or otherwise) AND the spin-1/2 of a highly relativistic non-pointlike electron model. In either case there will be some longitudinal momentum Plong, at light speed for a photon model and at very near light speed for a highly relativistic electron model, as well as some significant locally transverse linear momentum Ptrans (even if the net transverse linear momentum of the photon model is zero as in the double-helix photon model) that generates spin Sz = R x Ptrans = 1 hbar for a photon model or 1/2 hbar for a highly relativistic electron model . A longitudinal light-speed or near-light-speed linear momentum vector plus a significant local transverse linear momentum vector gives a diagonal local linear momentum vector with a corresponding diagonal velocity vector whose magnitude is greater than c. Putting a photon model’s or electron model's transverse oscillatory motion, that generates its spin, into two different transverse dimensional spaces is ingenious, but if the photon is to move along longitudinally as a whole and not leave the two transverse dimensional spaces behind, I think there will still be some diagonal superluminal motion. I would be happy to see a proved counterexample.</div>
<div>Richard</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Nov 23, 2017, at 12:19 PM, John Williamson <<a href="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk" moz-do-not-send="true">John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk</a>> wrote:</div>
<div>
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<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Tahoma;
font-size: 10pt;">Hi Richard and everyone,<br>
<br>
You do not need to add anything. "Superluminal" is not needed. If you consider light-in-a-box (including light in a box of its own making) the de Broglie wavelength follows from the beat frequencies of the proper relativistic transformations of the light going with the motion and that going against. Remeber, one needs to consider BOTH the Doppler shift AND the SR transformations. Then everything works. Martin is writing a definitive paper on this.</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Tahoma;
font-size: 10pt;"> </div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Tahoma;
font-size: 10pt;">Regards, John.
<div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size:
16px;">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRpF210496" style="direction: ltr;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b>General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" moz-do-not-send="true">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] on behalf of Richard Gauthier [<a href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b>Thursday, November 23, 2017 6:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><a href="mailto:srp2@srpinc.org" moz-do-not-send="true">srp2@srpinc.org</a>; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b>Re: [General] Compton and de Broglie wavelengththe "error"</font><br>
</div>
<div>Hello André, Chip, John and all,
<div>
<h4 style="margin: 0in 0in 9pt;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">I also think that there is “an additional factor” that settles an electron into an atomic resonant state. In my view the electron is composed of this additional factor, a charged superluminal energy quantum that circulates and generates quantum waves having the de Broglie wavelength. These quantum waves self-resonate in regions around an atomic nucleus. When an available resonant region around an atomic nucleus is found, the superluminal energy quantum settles into this region and continues to emit quantum waves that for some period of time maintain it in this resonance state in the atom. The electron is more likely to be detected wherever the amplitude of this resonant state (the electron’s eigenfunction for this state) is larger.</span></h4>
<h4 style="margin: 0in 0in 9pt;"><span style="font-weight: normal;">This idea is not fully developed but is hinted at in “</span><span style="color: rgb(35, 35, 35); font-weight:
normal;">Transluminal Energy Quantum Model of a Spin-½ Charged Photon Composing an Electron”,</span><span style="color: rgb(35, 35, 35);
background-color: white; font-weight:
normal;">“Electrons Are Spin</span><span style="color: rgb(35, 35, 35);
font-weight: normal;">-½</span><span style="color: rgb(35, 35, 35);
background-color: white; font-weight:
normal;">Charged Photons Generating the de Broglie Wavelength”,</span><span style="font-weight: normal;">“</span><span style="color: rgb(26, 26, 26);
font-weight: normal;">The Charged-Photon Model of the Electron Fits the Schrödinger Equation</span><span style="font-weight: normal;">”and “</span><span style="color: rgb(26, 26, 26);
font-weight: normal;">The Charged-Photon Model of the Electron, the de Broglie Wavelength, and a New Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics" at<a href="https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research%23papers" moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank">https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research#papers</a>. What I called a charged photon in theses articles I am now calling a charged half-photon.</span></h4>
<div><span style="color:
rgb(26, 26, 26); font-weight: normal;">Richard</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Nov 23, 2017, at 8:52 AM, André Michaud <<a href="mailto:srp2@srpinc.org" moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank">srp2@srpinc.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<div>
<div class="userStyles" style="font-style: normal;
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normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
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12pt;">
<p style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">Hi Chip, and all</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">You write: "</span></span></span><i><span lang="EN-CA">I prefer the second option, there is some additional factor interacting with the electron, to cause these quantized orbitals, and understand from Andre’s writings that he feels the same way.</span></i><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">"</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">You are exactly right about what I think. I came to the same conclusion as yourself (the second option) way back in fact when I finally lighted up to the fact that the wave function originally was related to electrons orbitals by Schrödinger because he was inspired in this direction by a conclusion of de Broglie that electrons had to be captive in some form of resonance state about nuclei.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">I think that this was sort of lost sight of in the community due to the acrimonious debate that raged on afterwards between the proponents of the Copenhagen school and the determinists, which indeed was fundamentally whether the first or second option applied in physical reality.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">After I came to the second option conclusion, I started to look around for descriptions of this resonance state that could be related to the wave function but found nothing, as if the only option that had been explored was the first one, with which the Heisenberg solution was in harmony and also later Feynman's path integral.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">To me, the idea of "resonance" always made me think of a vibrating guitar string, whose shape and extent of the volume visited by the transversally oscillating string can be described by the wave function.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">I suspected that this might have been what de Broglie had in mind also, and became convinced that the electron could remain localized while being captive within the theoretical volume defined by the wave function, on an axial resonance trajectory (sort of stochastic maybe to some extent) that may be describable mathematically and that could be due to electric versus magnetic interaction between the electron and the nuclei.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">I see that you lean in a similar direction Chip. I have explored the possible electric vs magnetic potential explanation to a large extent, but I am at a loss as to how to exactly mathematize the localized resonance trajectory proper within the volume definable by the wave function. You seem to be better equipped mathematically than me to address such an issue, with your</span></span></span></span></span></span><span>¼ de Broglie wavelength</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">exploration.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">For a general overview of how the trispatial geometry allows defining this type of electromagnetic electron equilibrium states involving both electric and magnetic aspects of energy, here is my final paper on the whole concept:</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><a href="https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/gravitation-quantum-mechanics-and-the-least-action-electromagneticequilibrium-states-2329-6542-1000152.pdf" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: blue;
text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/gravitation-quantum-mechanics-and-the-least-action-electromagneticequilibrium-states-2329-6542-1000152.pdf</a></span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">Even though it involves an entirely new paradigm that may feel very unfamiliar at first, I hope it nevertheless makes some sense to you.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><span style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">Best Regards</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
---<br>
André Michaud<br>
GSJournal admin<br>
<a href="http://www.gsjournal.net/" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank">http://www.gsjournal.net/</a><br>
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text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank">http://www.srpinc.org/</a><br>
<br>
<span>On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 05:16:52 -0600, "Chip Akins"wrote:</span><br>
<div class="WordSection1">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
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font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>Hi All</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
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font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>But in all this, regarding de Broglie’s wavelength and the electron orbitals, there is still something missing.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>Either we have to assume that the electron occupies the entire circumference of the orbital simultaneously by its wavefunction, or there is some additional factor interacting with the electron, to cause these quantized orbitals.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
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font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>I prefer the second option, there is some additional factor interacting with the electron, to cause these quantized orbitals, and understand from Andre’s writings that he feels the same way.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
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font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>In the hydrogen atom there is a simple, naturally occurring cause, for a “matter wave” which is exactly ¼ the de Broglie wavelength. This “matter wave” is a beat frequency created by the perceived frequency difference with motion, of the outer radius and inner radius of the electron as it circulates about the proton. I found this to be interesting, and wanted to share this observation.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
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font-family: 'Times New Roman',
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<div style="margin: 0in 0in
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font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>Chip</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
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font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div>
<div style="border-style:
solid none none;
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225,
225); border-top-width: 1pt;
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;">General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: purple;
text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<b>On Behalf Of</b>André Michaud<br>
<b>Sent:</b>Wednesday, November 22, 2017 10:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: purple;
text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b>Re: [General] Compton and de Broglie wavelengththe "error"</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-family: Arial,
sans-serif;">Hello John,</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>You are absolutely right.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><br>
<span>In fact de Broglie derived this relation with respect to the values of the Bohr ground state orbit energy parameters.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><br>
<span>Heisenberg did the same, except that he formulated the relation so that it could account for a precision drift of the chosen velocity on either side of the selected velocity value about the ground orbit of the Bohr atom.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><br>
<span>In 1923, he himself expressed his uncertainty principle as delta_x delta_p equal-or-larger-than h, which is the same as delta_x approx_equal to h / (m delta_v_x), which is fundamentally de Broglie's single valued h/mv for the Bohr ground state orbit.</span><br>
<br>
<span style="font-family: Arial,
sans-serif;">This is at the origin of Heisenberg's statistical solution.</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><br>
<span style="font-family: Arial,
sans-serif;">Best Regards ---<br>
André Michaud<br>
GSJournal admin<br>
<a href="http://www.gsjournal.net/" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank">http://www.gsjournal.net/</a><br>
<a href="http://www.srpinc.org/" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" target="_blank">http://www.srpinc.org/</a><br>
<br>
On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 03:17:31 +0000, John Williamson wrote:</span></p>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif;">Dear Albrecht,<br>
<br>
Your error is more fundamental than you know. See below in green.</span></div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif; text-align:
center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<div id="divRpF178154">
<div style="margin:
0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif;">General [<a href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: purple;
text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] on behalf of Viv Robinson [<a href="mailto:viv@universephysics.com" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: purple;
text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">viv@universephysics.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b>Wednesday, November 22, 2017 10:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b>Albrecht Giese; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b>Re: [General] Compton and de Broglie wavelengththe "error"</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin:
0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div id="bloop_customfont">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;">Dear Albrecht,</span></div>
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;">IMHO you have a fundamental flaw in your first paragraph below. A single electron cannot generate an interference pattern, any more than can a single photon. An observer moving with a single electron will, if the screen is angled towards him, see only a single spot where the electron impinged upon that screen. That is all. If he repeats that observation say 10,000 times he will still only see on spot each time the electron impinges upon the screen. If the spots are recorded, each time he travels with another electron he will see an interference image slowly appear because it is dependent upon the frame of reference of the slit and screen. The motion of the observer does not interfere with that pattern.</span></div>
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;">Sincerely</span></div>
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;">Vivian Robinson</span></div>
</div>
<div style="margin:
0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"> </div>
<div id="bloop_sign_1511389963683457792">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
</div>
<div style="margin:
0in 0in 0.0001pt;
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font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin:
0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span>On 23 November 2017 at 8:24:21 AM, Albrecht Giese (<a href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: purple;
text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">phys@a-giese.de</a>) wrote:</span></div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt;
margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>Dear André,</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
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12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>the "error" which I see for de Broglie is his assumed relation lambda = h / momentum .</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="color:
green;">Your error, and this is an error not an "error" is that you assume that de Broglie "assumed lambda = h / momentum. Louis de Broglie did not assume lambda = h / momentum - he derived it. From relativity. Please do not assume what you think other people assume. Remember, de Broglie was very smart, and this relation had to come from somewhere, no? It would be instructive for you to understand the how and why he did this before making uninformed comments on it.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>This relation fails at any linear transformation. Take as an example the scattering of electrons at a multi-slit. If you look at it from the rest frame of the multi-slit then de Broglie's wavelength describes correctly the generated interference pattern. However, if this situation is observed by someone moving at the side of the electron the result is completely wrong. Assume as an extreme situation that the observer moves together with the electron. Then in the frame of the observer the electron has the momentum = 0 and so the wavelength is infinite. This means: no interference! But the pattern does of course not disappear and will be visible to the observer. This shows that de Broglie does not even fulfil Galileo's physical rule of relativity believed and proven since 600 years.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>Regarding the particle mass: My equation is simple: m = h(bar) / (c*R) , where R is the radius of the particle. And R can be easily determined by use of the known magnetic momentum of the particle.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>The mag. momentum of a circling elementary charge is classically: mm = (1/2)*c*e<sub>0</sub>*R</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>The mag. moment of particles is known. So, R can be determined. This R inserted into the equation above yields the particle mass with an accuracy of about 10<sup>-3</sup>. - This is now based only on the strong force. If the result is corrected by the influence of the electrical charge, this yields the Landé factor in case of the electron. This applied yields the mass with an accuracy of 2*10<sup>-6</sup>.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>References for this are:<a href="http://www.ag-physics.org/rmass" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color:
purple;
text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">www.ag-physics.org/rmass</a>and<a href="http://www.ag-physics.org/electron" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color:
purple;
text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">www.ag-physics.org/electron</a>.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span>Hope this explains it. Otherwise please ask.<br>
<br>
Albrecht</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times
New Roman', serif;"><span><a href="http://airmail.calendar/2017-11-18%2022:54:00%20AEST" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color:
purple;
text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">Am 18.11.2017 um 22:54</a>schrieb André Michaud:</span></div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:
5pt; margin-bottom:
5pt;">
<div>
<p style="margin: 0in
0in 10pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;" lang="EN-CA">Dear Albrecht,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in
0in 10pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;" lang="EN-CA">I must say that I don't see as "errors" conclusions that were drawn before more precise knowledge was discovered. For example, I don't think that Newton made an "error" by not immediately concluding to the possibility the fixed velocity of light. He simply did not know about it because this had not yet been discovered.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in
0in 10pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;" lang="EN-CA">The same for de Broglie in my opinion, he worked with the knowledge available a the time.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in
0in 10pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;" lang="EN-CA">As i understand it, what we call the de Broglie wave is simply a representation of the sum of the energies of the rest mass of the electron plus the translational energy related to its momentum. How can this be wrong at the general level, unless I misunderstand the whole concept?</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in
0in 10pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;" lang="EN-CA">As for Hönl and the mass of the electron, I was meaning this rhetorically. I simply mean that any solution that exactly provides the exact mass of the electron as experimentally measured by numerous means can only be a proper description, so your description has to be correct. The exact mass of the electron has been experimentally confirmed for over 1 century. I do not know where to look to examine your solution. Can you provide a link?</span></p>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">---<br>
André Michaud<br>
GSJournal admin<br>
<a href="http://www.gsjournal.net/" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color:
purple;
text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">http://www.gsjournal.net/</a><br>
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purple;
text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">http://www.srpinc.org/</a><br>
<br>
<i><a href="http://airmail.calendar/2017-11-19%2006:56:34%20AEST" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color:
purple;
text-decoration:
underline;" target="_blank">On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 21:56:34 +0100</a>, Albrecht Giese wrote:</i></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">Dear André,</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">there is no doubt that de Broglie has made great contributions to the development of physics. So, if there is an anniversary in honour of him and even the Nobel price, then as many as possible of his achievements are of course presented.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in
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font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">My concern, however, refers to a specific result of his early activities. The assumed necessity to introduce the "harmony of waves" and to deduce the "de Broglie" wavelength are based on a logical error and on a misunderstanding of SR.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">It is a quite funny situation that in spite of this error his result seems usable to explain certain physical processes. It is one goal of my physical activities to understand this. In one fundamental case I have found an explanation. That is the scattering of electrons at a double / multiple slit. If such experiment is viewed from a specific inertial frame (the one normally used), de Brolgie's calculation conforms to the measurement. However in any other frame it fails. - I can explain why the de Broglie wave seems to work even though it is erroneous. (Not here but I can give you a reference if you want it.)</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in
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font-family:
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serif;"> </div>
<div style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">Regarding Hönl I do not understand what you say. Hönl did NOT get a correct mass by assuming only the electrical force in the electron. He was wrong by a factor of about 300 as I wrote earlier. But the calculation which I did is correct with high precision and the formula does not have any free parameters, only the standard ones. I do not know any other model which has this. Do you? Then please give me a reference.</span></div>
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<div style="margin: 0in
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font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">Best regards<br>
Albrecht</span></div>
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