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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi André, Chip, and all,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">if we discuss de Broglie's concept of a
particle wave, we should in my view refer to his original work and
not to others who have used the results (well understood or
misunderstood) in other applications.<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, de Broglie in original:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"
lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"
lang="EN-GB">It is of course correct that de Broglie did not
just assume his wave but he has deduced it from considerations
about relativity. But his deduction is based on a severe error
as I have explained in detail earlier. So, lets do it again. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"
lang="EN-GB">De Broglie has seen a logical conflict between the
Einstein- Planck relation (1) E=h*frequency and (2) relativistic
dilation; because according to (1) the frequency has to increase
at motion and according to (2) dilation will cause the frequency
to decrease. But his concern is an error as this conflict does
not exist. Because we have to look at an interaction of
particles, which is the relevant situation. Any interaction sees
frequencies which are increased by the Doppler effect. And the
Doppler effect gives an over-compensation of the normal
relativistic slow down so that both frequencies above will fit
on their own. The same result is achieved if the temporal
Lorentz transformation is properly applied. - For de Broglie's
new wave no justification </span><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">exists </span><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">at all.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"
lang="EN-GB">The comment of two of you that a single electron
does not produce an interference pattern is of course correct.
One electron only produces one dot on the screen. But if we
assume that a bunch of electron flies to the multi-slit with
same speed then the argument works. There will be an
interference pattern behind the multi-slit. But if we transform
the experiment into the frame of the electrons then the momentum
of the electrons is zero, and so the wavelength is infinite, and
seen from that frame no interference pattern can occur. But it
does occur, also visible for a co-moving observer, and that
shows that de Broglie's idea is erroneous. - I have shown in
calculations (but not in this place) why under certain
circumstances the impression occurs that de Broglie is correct.
But in general it is wrong. De Broglie's approach violates
Galileo's relativity as well as Lorentzian relativity. <br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"
lang="EN-GB">You have mentioned the good results of the use of
the de Broglie wave to determine the quantization of atomic
orbits. It is true that it works, but it has a similar problem
like for the scattering of electrons. Assume a hydrogen atom
moving into axial direction with a similar speed as the speed of
the electrons in the orbits. Then the resulting momentum of the
orbiting electrons increases by about 40% seen from the frame at
rest. So the de Broglie wavelength has to decrease by this
factor and the energy of these states has to change accordingly.
But in practice there will be a much smaller energy change. So
also in this case de Broglie fails at a more thorough look.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"
lang="EN-GB">In the mails there have been some considerations
about what de Broglie did "have in mind". But what he had in
mind he has written in his PhD thesis. Anything about the energy
states of atoms came later and by others (like Schrödinger and
Bohr).<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"
lang="EN-GB">Now I will be wondering about objecting arguments.<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"
lang="EN-GB">Albrecht<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB"
lang="EN-GB"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB">I thank you for
your answers and arguments. I will now answer to it, of course.
Which means to repeat my arguments of the last three weeks here
where I have given argument which seem to have been overlooked.</span><span
style="mso-ansi-language:EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 24.11.2017 um 01:20 schrieb Richard
Gauthier:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D78FBFC1-DB41-4483-AC67-C972ED75137A@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
Hi John, <span style="font-family: Arial;" class="">André, Chip
and all,</span>
<div class=""> Deriving the de Broglie wavelength of an electron
model without superluminal motion is easy (in hindsight, since
de Broglie did it using special relativity.) But try getting,
without superluminal motion, the spin-1 of a non-pointlike
photon model (for a photon-in-a-box or otherwise) AND the
spin-1/2 of a highly relativistic non-pointlike electron model.
In either case there will be some longitudinal momentum Plong,
at light speed for a photon model and at very near light speed
for a highly relativistic electron model, as well as some
significant locally transverse linear momentum Ptrans (even if
the net transverse linear momentum of the photon model is zero
as in the double-helix photon model) that generates spin Sz = R
x Ptrans = 1 hbar for a photon model or 1/2 hbar for a highly
relativistic electron model . A longitudinal light-speed or
near-light-speed linear momentum vector plus a significant local
transverse linear momentum vector gives a diagonal local linear
momentum vector with a corresponding diagonal velocity vector
whose magnitude is greater than c. Putting a photon models or
electron model's transverse oscillatory motion, that generates
its spin, into two different transverse dimensional spaces is
ingenious, but if the photon is to move along longitudinally as
a whole and not leave the two transverse dimensional spaces
behind, I think there will still be some diagonal superluminal
motion. I would be happy to see a proved counterexample.</div>
<div class=""> Richard</div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 23, 2017, at 12:19 PM, John Williamson
<<a href="mailto:John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">John.Williamson@glasgow.ac.uk</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; direction: ltr;
font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;" class="">
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Tahoma;
font-size: 10pt;" class="">Hi Richard and everyone,<br
class="">
<br class="">
You do not need to add anything. "Superluminal" is not
needed. If you consider light-in-a-box (including
light in a box of its own making) the de Broglie
wavelength follows from the beat frequencies of the
proper relativistic transformations of the light going
with the motion and that going against. Remeber, one
needs to consider BOTH the Doppler shift AND the SR
transformations. Then everything works. Martin is
writing a definitive paper on this.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Tahoma;
font-size: 10pt;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr; font-family: Tahoma;
font-size: 10pt;" class="">Regards, John.<br class="">
<div style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size:
16px;" class="">
<hr tabindex="-1" class="">
<div id="divRpF210496" style="direction: ltr;"
class=""><font class="" size="2" face="Tahoma"><b
class="">From:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General
[<a
href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
on behalf of Richard Gauthier [<a
href="mailto:richgauthier@gmail.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">richgauthier@gmail.com</a>]<br
class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday,
November 23, 2017 6:36 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:srp2@srpinc.org" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">srp2@srpinc.org</a>;
Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[General] Compton and de Broglie wavelengththe
"error"<br class="">
</font><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Hello André, Chip, John and all,
<div class=""> <br class="">
<h4 class="" style="margin: 0in 0in 9pt;"><span
class="" style="font-weight: normal;"> I
also think that there is an additional
factor that settles an electron into an
atomic resonant state. In my view the
electron is composed of this additional
factor, a charged superluminal energy
quantum that circulates and generates
quantum waves having the de Broglie
wavelength. These quantum waves
self-resonate in regions around an atomic
nucleus. When an available resonant region
around an atomic nucleus is found, the
superluminal energy quantum settles into
this region and continues to emit quantum
waves that for some period of time maintain
it in this resonance state in the atom. The
electron is more likely to be detected
wherever the amplitude of this resonant
state (the electrons eigenfunction for this
state) is larger.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></h4>
<h4 class="" style="margin: 0in 0in 9pt;"><span
class="" style="font-weight: normal;">
This idea is not fully developed but is
hinted at in </span><span class=""
style="color: rgb(35, 35, 35); font-weight:
normal;">Transluminal Energy Quantum Model
of a Spin-½ Charged Photon Composing an
Electron,</span><span class=""
style="font-weight: normal;"> </span><span
class="" style="color: rgb(35, 35, 35);
background-color: white; font-weight:
normal;">Electrons Are Spin</span><span
class="" style="color: rgb(35, 35, 35);
font-weight: normal;">-½<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
class="" style="color: rgb(35, 35, 35);
background-color: white; font-weight:
normal;">Charged Photons Generating the de
Broglie Wavelength,</span><span class=""
style="font-weight: normal;"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
class="" style="color: rgb(26, 26, 26);
font-weight: normal;">The Charged-Photon
Model of the Electron Fits the Schrödinger
Equation</span><span class=""
style="font-weight: normal;"> and </span><span
class="" style="color: rgb(26, 26, 26);
font-weight: normal;">The Charged-Photon
Model of the Electron, the de Broglie
Wavelength, and a New Interpretation of
Quantum Mechanics" at<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research%23papers"
class="" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://richardgauthier.academia.edu/research#papers</a>.
What I called a charged photon in theses
articles I am now calling a charged
half-photon.</span><span class=""
style="color: rgb(35, 35, 35); font-weight:
normal;"></span></h4>
<div class=""><span class="" style="color:
rgb(26, 26, 26); font-weight: normal;">
Richard</span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> <br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 23, 2017, at 8:52 AM,
André Michaud <<a
href="mailto:srp2@srpinc.org" class=""
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">srp2@srpinc.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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style="font-style: normal;
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<p class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size: 11pt;"><span
class="" style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span
class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">Hi Chip, and all</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size: 11pt;"><span
class="" style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span
class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">You write: "</span></span></span><i
class=""><span class=""
lang="EN-CA">I prefer the
second option, there is
some additional factor
interacting with the
electron, to cause these
quantized orbitals, and
understand from Andres
writings that he feels the
same way.</span></i><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">"</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size: 11pt;"><span
class="" style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span
class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">You are exactly
right about what I
think. I came to the
same conclusion as
yourself (the second
option) way back in fact
when I finally lighted
up to the fact that the
wave function originally
was related to electrons
orbitals by Schrödinger
because he was inspired
in this direction by a
conclusion of de Broglie
that electrons had to be
captive in some form of
resonance state about
nuclei.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size: 11pt;"><span
class="" style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span
class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">I think that
this was sort of lost
sight of in the
community due to the
acrimonious debate that
raged on afterwards
between the proponents
of the Copenhagen school
and the determinists,
which indeed was
fundamentally whether
the first or second
option applied in
physical reality.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size: 11pt;"><span
class="" style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span
class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">After I came to
the second option
conclusion, I started to
look around for
descriptions of this
resonance state that
could be related to the
wave function but found
nothing, as if the only
option that had been
explored was the first
one, with which the
Heisenberg solution was
in harmony and also
later Feynman's path
integral.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size: 11pt;"><span
class="" style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span
class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">To me, the idea
of "resonance" always
made me think of a
vibrating guitar string,
whose shape and extent
of the volume visited by
the transversally
oscillating string can
be described by the wave
function. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size: 11pt;"><span
class="" style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span
class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">I suspected that
this might have been
what de Broglie had in
mind also, and became
convinced that the
electron could remain
localized while being
captive within the
theoretical volume
defined by the wave
function, on an axial
resonance trajectory
(sort of stochastic
maybe to some extent)
that may be describable
mathematically and that
could be due to electric
versus magnetic
interaction between the
electron and the nuclei.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size: 11pt;"><span
class="" style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span
class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">I see that you
lean in a similar
direction Chip. I have
explored the possible
electric vs magnetic
potential explanation to
a large extent, but I am
at a loss as to how to
exactly mathematize the
localized resonance
trajectory proper within
the volume definable by
the wave function. You
seem to be better
equipped mathematically
than me to address such
an issue, with your<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span><span
class="">ĵ de Broglie wavelength</span><span
class="" style="font-size: 11pt;"><span
class="" style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span
class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">exploration.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size: 11pt;"><span
class="" style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span
class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">For a general
overview of how the
trispatial geometry
allows defining this
type of electromagnetic
electron equilibrium
states involving both
electric and magnetic
aspects of energy, here
is my final paper on the
whole concept:</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size: 11pt;"><span
class="" style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span
class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><a
href="https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/gravitation-quantum-mechanics-and-the-least-action-electromagneticequilibrium-states-2329-6542-1000152.pdf"
class=""
target="_blank"
style="color: blue;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/gravitation-quantum-mechanics-and-the-least-action-electromagneticequilibrium-states-2329-6542-1000152.pdf</a></span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size: 11pt;"><span
class="" style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span
class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">Even though it
involves an entirely new
paradigm that may feel
very unfamiliar at
first, I hope it
nevertheless makes some
sense to you.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
10pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size: 11pt;"><span
class="" style="line-height:
16.866666793823242px;"><span
class="" style="font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span
class="" style="font-size:
12pt;" lang="EN-US"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
18.399999618530273px;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;">Best Regards</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
---<br class="">
André Michaud<br class="">
GSJournal admin<br class="">
<a href="http://www.gsjournal.net/"
class="" target="_blank"
style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.gsjournal.net/</a><br
class="">
<a href="http://www.srpinc.org/"
class="" target="_blank"
style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.srpinc.org/</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
<span class="">On Thu, 23 Nov 2017
05:16:52 -0600, "Chip Akins"<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</span><br
class="">
<br class="">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">Hi All</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">But in all
this, regarding de Broglies
wavelength and the electron
orbitals, there is still
something missing.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">Either we
have to assume that the electron
occupies the entire
circumference of the orbital
simultaneously by its
wavefunction, or there is some
additional factor interacting
with the electron, to cause
these quantized orbitals.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">I prefer
the second option, there is some
additional factor interacting
with the electron, to cause
these quantized orbitals, and
understand from Andres writings
that he feels the same way.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">In the
hydrogen atom there is a simple,
naturally occurring cause, for a
matter wave which is exactly ĵ
the de Broglie wavelength. This
matter wave is a beat
frequency created by the
perceived frequency difference
with motion, of the outer radius
and inner radius of the electron
as it circulates about the
proton. I found this to be
interesting, and wanted to share
this observation.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">Chip</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="border-style:
solid none none;
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225,
225); border-top-width: 1pt;
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<div class="" style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><b class=""><span
class="" style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
class="" style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General
[<a
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
class="" target="_blank"
style="color: purple;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>André
Michaud<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday,
November 22, 2017 10:52 PM<br
class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" class=""
target="_blank"
style="color: purple;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br
class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Compton and de
Broglie wavelengththe
"error"</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""
style="font-family: Arial,
sans-serif;">Hello John,<br
class="">
</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">You are
absolutely right.</span><span
class="" style="font-family:
Arial, sans-serif;"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><br class="">
<span class="">In fact de
Broglie derived this relation
with respect to the values of
the Bohr ground state orbit
energy parameters.</span><span
class="" style="font-family:
Arial, sans-serif;"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><br class="">
<span class="">Heisenberg did
the same, except that he
formulated the relation so
that it could account for a
precision drift of the chosen
velocity on either side of the
selected velocity value about
the ground orbit of the Bohr
atom.</span><span class=""
style="font-family: Arial,
sans-serif;"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;"><br class="">
<span class="">In 1923, he
himself expressed his
uncertainty principle as
delta_x delta_p
equal-or-larger-than h, which
is the same as delta_x
approx_equal to h / (m
delta_v_x), which is
fundamentally de Broglie's
single valued h/mv for the
Bohr ground state orbit.</span><br
class="">
<br class="">
<span class=""
style="font-family: Arial,
sans-serif;">This is at the
origin of Heisenberg's
statistical solution.</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman', serif;"><br
class="">
<span class=""
style="font-family: Arial,
sans-serif;">Best Regards ---<br
class="">
André Michaud<br class="">
GSJournal admin<br class="">
<a
href="http://www.gsjournal.net/"
class="" target="_blank"
style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.gsjournal.net/</a><br
class="">
<a
href="http://www.srpinc.org/"
class="" target="_blank"
style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.srpinc.org/</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 03:17:31
+0000, John Williamson wrote:</span></p>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span class=""
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif;">Dear Albrecht,<br
class="">
<br class="">
Your error is more
fundamental than you know.
See below in green.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div class="">
<div class="MsoNormal"
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif; text-align:
center;" align="center">
<hr class="" size="2"
align="center"
width="100%"></div>
<div id="divRpF178154"
class="">
<div class="" style="margin:
0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><b
class=""><span class=""
style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
class=""
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif;"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>General
[<a
href="mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
class=""
target="_blank"
style="color: purple;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
on behalf of Viv
Robinson [<a
href="mailto:viv@universephysics.com"
class=""
target="_blank"
style="color: purple;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">viv@universephysics.com</a>]<br
class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, November 22, 2017 10:49
PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Albrecht Giese; Nature of Light
and Particles - General
Discussion<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [General] Compton and de
Broglie wavelengththe
"error"</span><br
class="">
<span class=""></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="" style="margin:
0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span
class=""></span></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div id="bloop_customfont"
class="">
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""
style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;">Dear
Albrecht,</span></div>
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont"
class="">
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""
style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;"></span></div>
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont"
class="">
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""
style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;">IMHO you
have a fundamental
flaw in your first
paragraph below. A
single electron cannot
generate an
interference pattern,
any more than can a
single photon. An
observer moving with a
single electron will,
if the screen is
angled towards him,
see only a single spot
where the electron
impinged upon that
screen. That is all.
If he repeats that
observation say 10,000
times he will still
only see on spot each
time the electron
impinges upon the
screen. If the spots
are recorded, each
time he travels with
another electron he
will see an
interference image
slowly appear because
it is dependent upon
the frame of reference
of the slit and
screen. The motion of
the observer does not
interfere with that
pattern.</span></div>
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont"
class="">
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""
style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;"></span></div>
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont"
class="">
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""
style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;">Sincerely</span></div>
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont"
class="">
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""
style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;"></span></div>
</div>
<div id="bloop_customfont"
class="">
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""
style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;">Vivian
Robinson</span></div>
</div>
<div class="" style="margin:
0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span
class=""></span></div>
<div
id="bloop_sign_1511389963683457792"
class="">
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
</div>
<div class="" style="margin:
0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span
class=""></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:
0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;"><span
class="">On 23 November
2017 at 8:24:21 AM,
Albrecht Giese (<a
href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de"
class=""
target="_blank"
style="color: purple;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">phys@a-giese.de</a>)
wrote:</span></div>
<blockquote class=""
style="margin-top: 5pt;
margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<div class="">
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">Dear
André,</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">the
"error" which I see
for de Broglie is
his assumed relation
lambda = h /
momentum .<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""
style="color:
green;">Your error,
and this is an error
not an "error" is
that you assume that
de Broglie "assumed
lambda = h /
momentum. Louis de
Broglie did not
assume lambda = h /
momentum - he
derived it. From
relativity. Please
do not assume what
you think other
people assume.
Remember, de Broglie
was very smart, and
this relation had to
come from somewhere,
no? It would be
instructive for you
to understand the
how and why he did
this before making
uninformed comments
on it.</span><span
class=""></span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">This
relation fails at
any linear
transformation. Take
as an example the
scattering of
electrons at a
multi-slit. If you
look at it from the
rest frame of the
multi-slit then de
Broglie's wavelength
describes correctly
the generated
interference
pattern. However, if
this situation is
observed by someone
moving at the side
of the electron the
result is completely
wrong. Assume as an
extreme situation
that the observer
moves together with
the electron. Then
in the frame of the
observer the
electron has the
momentum = 0 and so
the wavelength is
infinite. This
means: no
interference! But
the pattern does of
course not disappear
and will be visible
to the observer.
This shows that de
Broglie does not
even fulfil
Galileo's physical
rule of relativity
believed and proven
since 600 years.</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">Regarding
the particle mass:
My equation is
simple: m = h(bar) /
(c*R) , where R is
the radius of the
particle. And R can
be easily determined
by use of the known
magnetic momentum of
the particle.</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">The
mag. momentum of a
circling elementary
charge is
classically: mm =
(1/2)*c*e<sub
class="">0</sub>*R</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">The
mag. moment of
particles is known.
So, R can be
determined. This R
inserted into the
equation above
yields the particle
mass with an
accuracy of about 10<sup
class="">-3</sup>.
- This is now based
only on the strong
force. If the result
is corrected by the
influence of the
electrical charge,
this yields the
Landé factor in case
of the electron.
This applied yields
the mass with an
accuracy of 2*10<sup
class="">-6</sup>.<br
class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">References
for this are:<a
href="http://www.ag-physics.org/rmass"
class=""
target="_blank"
style="color:
purple;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.ag-physics.org/rmass</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and<a
href="http://www.ag-physics.org/electron"
class=""
target="_blank"
style="color:
purple;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.ag-physics.org/electron</a>.</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class="">Hope
this explains it.
Otherwise please
ask.<br class="">
<br class="">
Albrecht</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span class=""></span></div>
<div class="">
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times
New Roman', serif;"><span
class=""><a
href="http://airmail.calendar/2017-11-18%2022:54:00%20AEST"
class=""
target="_blank"
style="color:
purple;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">Am
18.11.2017 um
22:54</a>schrieb
André Michaud:</span></div>
</div>
<blockquote class=""
style="margin-top:
5pt; margin-bottom:
5pt;">
<div class="">
<p class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 10pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"
lang="EN-CA">Dear
Albrecht,</span><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 10pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"
lang="EN-CA">I
must say that I
don't see as
"errors"
conclusions that
were drawn
before more
precise
knowledge was
discovered. For
example, I don't
think that
Newton made an
"error" by not
immediately
concluding to
the possibility
the fixed
velocity of
light. He simply
did not know
about it because
this had not yet
been discovered.</span><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 10pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"
lang="EN-CA">The
same for de
Broglie in my
opinion, he
worked with the
knowledge
available a the
time.</span><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 10pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"
lang="EN-CA">As
i understand it,
what we call the
de Broglie wave
is simply a
representation
of the sum of
the energies of
the rest mass of
the electron
plus the
translational
energy related
to its momentum.
How can this be
wrong at the
general level,
unless I
misunderstand
the whole
concept?</span><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 10pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Calibri,
sans-serif;"
lang="EN-CA">As
for Hönl and the
mass of the
electron, I was
meaning this
rhetorically. I
simply mean that
any solution
that exactly
provides the
exact mass of
the electron as
experimentally
measured by
numerous means
can only be a
proper
description, so
your description
has to be
correct. The
exact mass of
the electron has
been
experimentally
confirmed for
over 1 century.
I do not know
where to look to
examine your
solution. Can
you provide a
link?</span><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;"></span></p>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">---<br
class="">
André Michaud<br
class="">
GSJournal admin<br
class="">
<a
href="http://www.gsjournal.net/"
class=""
target="_blank"
style="color:
purple;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.gsjournal.net/</a><br
class="">
<a
href="http://www.srpinc.org/"
class=""
target="_blank"
style="color:
purple;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.srpinc.org/</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
<i class=""><a
href="http://airmail.calendar/2017-11-19%2006:56:34%20AEST"
class=""
target="_blank"
style="color:
purple;
text-decoration:
underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true">On
Sat, 18 Nov
2017 21:56:34
+0100</a>,
Albrecht Giese
wrote:</i><br
class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">Dear
André,</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">there
is no doubt that
de Broglie has
made great
contributions to
the development
of physics. So,
if there is an
anniversary in
honour of him
and even the
Nobel price,
then as many as
possible of his
achievements are
of course
presented.</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;"></span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">My
concern,
however, refers
to a specific
result of his
early
activities. The
assumed
necessity to
introduce the
"harmony of
waves" and to
deduce the "de
Broglie"
wavelength are
based on a
logical error
and on a
misunderstanding
of SR.</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;"></span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">It
is a quite funny
situation that
in spite of this
error his result
seems usable to
explain certain
physical
processes. It is
one goal of my
physical
activities to
understand this.
In one
fundamental case
I have found an
explanation.
That is the
scattering of
electrons at a
double /
multiple slit.
If such
experiment is
viewed from a
specific
inertial frame
(the one
normally used),
de Brolgie's
calculation
conforms to the
measurement.
However in any
other frame it
fails. - I can
explain why the
de Broglie wave
seems to work
even though it
is erroneous.
(Not here but I
can give you a
reference if you
want it.)</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;"></span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">Regarding
Hönl I do not
understand what
you say. Hönl
did NOT get a
correct mass by
assuming only
the electrical
force in the
electron. He was
wrong by a
factor of about
300 as I wrote
earlier. But the
calculation
which I did is
correct with
high precision
and the formula
does not have
any free
parameters, only
the standard
ones. I do not
know any other
model which has
this. Do you?
Then please give
me a reference.</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;"></span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;">Best
regards<br
class="">
Albrecht</span></div>
<div class=""
style="margin: 0in
0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt;
font-family:
'Times New Roman',
serif;"><span
class=""
style="font-family:
Arial,
sans-serif;"></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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