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<p>Andre:</p>
<p>Please take a step back and look at your example. Is it not based
on the a-priori assumption that there is an objective reality and
signals from that assumed objective reality flow through our
neural structure? What if we eliminate this assumption? What if we
realize that our mental processing starts with the interaction at
the retina. We do not know what caused it a-priori but what we are
doing and have always done is attempt to find explanations for the
imges produced by that interaction. We explain the shadows in
Plato's cave.<br>
</p>
<p> I thought this simple and clear example is demonstrable proof
that we do not see objects. Nothing profound or complex. The
object does not move when the screen on which an image is
projected is warped. Because they do move when we warp our retina
by pushing on it we do not see objects but processed images. It
has been a puzzle for me that this simple and demonstrable proof
is <br>
</p>
<p>This does not mean its all in the mind, it means we all see our
own interpretation and once understood it leaves the door open for
alternative and hopefully improved concepts of reality as quantum
theory has shown us. <br>
</p>
wolf<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/22/2018 5:26 AM, André Michaud
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:201801221326.w0MDQg0C021397@mail68c0.megamailservers.com">
<title></title>
<div class="userStyles" style=" font-family: Arial; font-size:
12pt; color: #000000;">
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size:11pt"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif"">Hi Chip,</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size:11pt"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif"">I absolutely agree
with you.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size:11pt"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif"">Each of our
"awarenesses" is separated from this really
existing physical reality by the double interface
provided by each our neocortex. </span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size:11pt"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif"">Our nerve endings
feed the "signals" they receive from "outside" to
the entry layer of the neocortex (a 6-layer neural
network), which is the outer interface. The
intercalary layers automatically correlate in real
time the tens of millions of signals into
coherences that are automatically provided at the
output layer (the second interface) of which our
awareness is constantly observing. </span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size:11pt"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif"">These research were
carried out by neurophysiologists Ivan Pavlov
(available only in Russian and German), Donald
Hebb (available only in English), and Paul
Chauchard (available only in French) mainly.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size:11pt"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif"">If you are
interested, a general summary of their research is
available here: </span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size:11pt"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><a
href="https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/on-the-relation-between-the-comprehension-ability-and-the-neocortexverbal-areas-2155-6180-1000331.pdf"
style="color:blue; text-decoration:underline"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/on-the-relation-between-the-comprehension-ability-and-the-neocortexverbal-areas-2155-6180-1000331.pdf</a></span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size:11pt"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span
style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-US"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif"">Best Regards</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size:11pt"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span
style="font-size:12.0pt"><span
style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif"">André</span></span></span></span></span></span></p>
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<span>On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 05:37:43 -0600, "Chip Akins" <chipakins@gmail.com>
wrote:</chipakins@gmail.com></span><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Wolf<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes. I agree that we need to make that
next step of describing what is going on which creates
what we can observe.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But I also firmly believe that there is
an independent objective reality which is described by the
energy and its reaction to space. And that we are also
made of the same kinds of thing which we observe (Energy
reacting with space creating particles, etc.).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The independent objective reality does
not depend on us for it to exist, but we can interact with
it and make small changes to it in the scheme of things.
The building, tree, mountain, planet, or galaxy, are still
there, whether we observe them or not.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We can change the shape of the lens in
our eye and distort an image just as we can change the
shape of an external lens and distort an image. The laws
which govern these reactions are not changed. Those laws,
those causes, which define our universe, are the reasons
that particles exist and behave as they do. It is not our
observation which defines those objective laws of the
universe. But we can do a much better job of understanding
those laws. That is the next step.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Chip<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
General
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Wolfgang Baer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, January 21, 2018 7:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] To realists out there<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Chip:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The point is we do not see objects out there, we process
the imagefalling on our retina using our encoded beliefs
into a mental mage display, we do not directly see objects
but instead created the perception with all its properties<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>If we saw objects directly they would not move when we
fiddle with the image in the experiment I described <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>And because we do not see object directly but only
perceptions that we believe is reality, once we realize
reality is NOT objects then the door is open to ask the
question, "Is there a better assumption about what
explains our sensations?"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>And a step along this path was taken by Quantum Theory
which substitutes probability waves for the classic object
reality.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>But probabilities are squirmy and unsatisfying to me and
most of us in the forum- instead as my paper for FQXI
proposes I believe reality is better described by events,
and specifically closed action cycles in time. This is not
solipsism. It does not mean there is nothing external. It
means the next step in our world view is to replace
objects and probabilities with interacting events. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>And specifically for your paper it means space is no
longer an independent objective thing out there but rather
a creation that explains certain repetitive sensations and
therefore Lorenz is right there is a fundamental
background, and Einstein is right every coordinate frame
defines it own space. But neither of them have made the
next step. That we are all measuring through our
coordinate frames and learned theories that continue to
evolve.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>hope this helps it certainly helps me to try to find the
words that explain Plato's cave idea in modern terms.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>wolf <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Dr. Wolfgang Baer<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Research Director<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Nascent Systems Inc.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>E-mail <a href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 1/21/2018 1:57 PM, Chip Akins
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Wolf<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But we do have physical explanation
for the distortion of an image by a non-uniform convex
lens. The refractive properties of the lens are well
known and documented, so that we can accurately predict
the distortion a particular lens will cause.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">While we are made of material
molecules, atoms, and particles, which have an
electromagnetic set of characteristics, and that means
that our perceptions are based on our physical makeup,
and our abilities to sense certain electromagnetic
interactions, the fundamental reality that exists in the
universe can continue to exist without any one of us, or
all of us.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The evidence indicates that it is not
only illogical but extremely arrogant to assume
otherwise. Our consciousness does not create material
objects in the universe, but it does allow us to sense
and interpret what we sense in various, sometimes
erroneous, ways. There are many ways for us to test this
hypothesis, and we actually test it many times each day.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just my two cents, and my 5 senses.
Opinion and tangible physical mechanisms respectively.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Chip<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
General [<a
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Wolfgang Baer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, January 21, 2018 2:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion <a
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [General] To realists out there</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>To all:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I just submitted an essay contest to FQXI that is a
short version of the physics of the observer I am
working on.<span style="font-size:13.5pt"> One of the
responses claims I am completely off the mark and was
signed "realist" </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Some of you may have the same "realist" inclinations so think of this simple experiment:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Consider any object lens image setup.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Bend the image screen and you will see the image is distorted, but no such distortion changes the object.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Now do the same thing but use your eye as the lens image part of the setup.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Close one eye. With the other focus on an object - say a coffee cup on the desk 1 meter away. Now push the open eye from the side with your finger. This bends the retina and also moves or distorts the coffee cup.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">There is no physical mechanism in our current science that accounts for such a distortion of the coffee cup if the coffee cup you see is an independent object.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Conclusion: Neither the coffee cup nor anything we see in our daily environment is an independent objective reality. We are living in an interpretation of sensor interactions that is implemented by a physics inside the observer. Developing and defining this physics and straightening out the errors that have crept into our current physics due to the assumption that reality is the way we see it is the the the challenge confronting science today </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you want to look at the paper click on<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt"><a href="https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/3043" moz-do-not-send="true">https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/3043</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">If you want to rate it it might help me win, never know.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thanks<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Wolf<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Dr. Wolfgang Baer<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Research Director<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Nascent Systems Inc.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>E-mail <a href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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