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<p>Chip:</p>
<p>I think we are both in much agreement and lets back track. <br>
</p>
<p>My little push your eyeball experiment says nothing about what
really is. I am not making an ontological point about reality
itself, and I'm not making any statement about your ideas
concerning energy interactions with space. <br>
</p>
<p>All I wanted to do is show a simple little example of why what we
directly see cannot be reality itself. Whether that reality is
real mountains, chairs, and stars Id like to leave that as a
different question. <br>
</p>
<p>The question I want to settle is, Do we see those real objects
directly? My contention is no! And my reasoning is that warping an
image screen does not change the object in front of the lens.
Therefore if the mountain moves when I push my retina this little
experiment demonstrates that I am seeing an image of reality NOT
reality itself.</p>
<p>It is the old Aristotle vs Plato debate. I believe this
experiment ( and many many examples from psychology experiments)
proves to me Plato is right. We are not experiencing the reality
outside the cave directly but rather are experiencing the image of
that reality cast on the walls of the cave. <br>
</p>
<p>I believe your arguments below address the question, "Why does
evidence provided by our experience of images we see allow us to
conclude there is an object out there?"</p>
<p>I think realists need to understand there are two questions.
Aristotle needed to understand what quantum theorists had
rediscovered which is that we can never look through the windows
of our senses at reality directly. We are always looking at the
output of a measurement process and so it is quite easy to see
why if we push on the side of that process we see things move.<br>
</p>
<p>wolf<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com">wolf@NascentInc.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/24/2018 3:36 AM, Chip Akins wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Wolf<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am not saying that all of the
fundamentals of physics are understood at this point, just
that those fundamental laws exist. I do not believe we yet
understand them in the depth needed. Especially in Quantum
theory.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The fact that we are made of the same
particles we are trying to measure forces a condition of
uncertainty in our measurement. It is because the Nyquist
Theorem is forced upon us by those circumstances. And it is
our lack of knowledge of the systems at work and our limited
measurement abilities which yield this uncertainty.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This does not meant there is a magical “law
of uncertainty” beyond the cause and effect we have just
discussed. And I think it is not scientific then to assume
that particles are made of “probability waves”. Particles are
made of energy reacting with space in a manner which is quite
specific and repeatable even if we do not fully understand
that reaction yet.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think that the reason we do not yet have
a single unified theory which describes physics is because
portions of our two major theories are misinformed examples of
us once again jumping to conclusions.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is likely that in too many aspects of
our existing theories we have stopped looking for cause and
effect. This leads us more and more toward looking for
“magical” solutions. But that is not where the real answers
reside.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The fact that a planet, mountain, galaxy
can move does not make them unreal, it just means they obey
the laws of nature, just as our sensory system obeys those
laws.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wolf, I appreciate your approach on many
topics, and am thankful for the opportunity to discuss physics
with you. But this idea that somehow we actually create our
physical environment within our minds, to me is not physics.
We constantly disprove this idea in our interaction with
others and in our interaction with our common environment.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Chip<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
General
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Wolfgang Baer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 23, 2018 9:30 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] To realists out there<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Chip:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>So you think the laws come first and reality is basically
what we see with a few tweeks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Quote by Albert Michelson<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>While it is never safe to affirm that the future of Physical
Science has no marvels in store even more astonishing than
those of the past, it seems probable that <b>most of the
grand underlying principles have been firmly established</b>
and that further advances are to be sought chiefly in the
rigorous application of these principles to all the phenomena
which come under our notice. It is here that the science of
measurement shows its importance — where quantitative work is
more to be desired than qualitative work. An eminent physicist
remarked that <b>the future truths of physical science are to
be looked for in the sixth place of decimals</b>. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>1894, dedication of Ryerson Physical Laboratory, quoted in
Annual Register 1896, <a
href="https://books.google.com/books?id=HysXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA159"
moz-do-not-send="true">p. 159</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Then came quantum theory<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Does the fact that you can move the building, tree, mountain,
planet, or galaxy, prove that these things are not reality,
the only question is whether they are probability waves or
some exhibit some other ontology. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Wolf<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Dr. Wolfgang Baer<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Research Director<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Nascent Systems Inc.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>E-mail <a href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 1/22/2018 3:37 AM, Chip Akins wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Wolf<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes. I agree that we need to make that
next step of describing what is going on which creates what
we can observe.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But I also firmly believe that there is
an independent objective reality which is described by the
energy and its reaction to space. And that we are also made
of the same kinds of thing which we observe (Energy reacting
with space creating particles, etc.).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The independent objective reality does
not depend on us for it to exist, but we can interact with
it and make small changes to it in the scheme of things.
The building, tree, mountain, planet, or galaxy, are still
there, whether we observe them or not.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We can change the shape of the lens in
our eye and distort an image just as we can change the shape
of an external lens and distort an image. The laws which
govern these reactions are not changed. Those laws, those
causes, which define our universe, are the reasons that
particles exist and behave as they do. It is not our
observation which defines those objective laws of the
universe. But we can do a much better job of understanding
those laws. That is the next step.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Chip<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
General [<a
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Wolfgang Baer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, January 21, 2018 7:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] To realists out there</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Chip:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The point is we do not see objects out there, we process
the imagefalling on our retina using our encoded beliefs
into a mental mage display, we do not directly see objects
but instead created the perception with all its properties<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>If we saw objects directly they would not move when we
fiddle with the image in the experiment I described <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>And because we do not see object directly but only
perceptions that we believe is reality, once we realize
reality is NOT objects then the door is open to ask the
question, "Is there a better assumption about what explains
our sensations?"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>And a step along this path was taken by Quantum Theory
which substitutes probability waves for the classic object
reality.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>But probabilities are squirmy and unsatisfying to me and
most of us in the forum- instead as my paper for FQXI
proposes I believe reality is better described by events,
and specifically closed action cycles in time. This is not
solipsism. It does not mean there is nothing external. It
means the next step in our world view is to replace objects
and probabilities with interacting events. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>And specifically for your paper it means space is no longer
an independent objective thing out there but rather a
creation that explains certain repetitive sensations and
therefore Lorenz is right there is a fundamental background,
and Einstein is right every coordinate frame defines it own
space. But neither of them have made the next step. That we
are all measuring through our coordinate frames and learned
theories that continue to evolve.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>hope this helps it certainly helps me to try to find the
words that explain Plato's cave idea in modern terms.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>wolf <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Dr. Wolfgang Baer<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Research Director<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Nascent Systems Inc.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>E-mail <a href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 1/21/2018 1:57 PM, Chip Akins wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Wolf<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But we do have physical explanation for
the distortion of an image by a non-uniform convex lens.
The refractive properties of the lens are well known and
documented, so that we can accurately predict the
distortion a particular lens will cause.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">While we are made of material
molecules, atoms, and particles, which have an
electromagnetic set of characteristics, and that means
that our perceptions are based on our physical makeup, and
our abilities to sense certain electromagnetic
interactions, the fundamental reality that exists in the
universe can continue to exist without any one of us, or
all of us.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The evidence indicates that it is not
only illogical but extremely arrogant to assume
otherwise. Our consciousness does not create material
objects in the universe, but it does allow us to sense and
interpret what we sense in various, sometimes erroneous,
ways. There are many ways for us to test this hypothesis,
and we actually test it many times each day. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just my two cents, and my 5 senses.
Opinion and tangible physical mechanisms respectively.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Chip<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
General [<a
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Wolfgang Baer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, January 21, 2018 2:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion <a
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [General] To realists out there</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>To all:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I just submitted an essay contest to FQXI that is a short
version of the physics of the observer I am working on.<span
style="font-size:13.5pt"> One of the responses claims I
am completely off the mark and was signed "realist" </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Some of you may have the same "realist" inclinations so think of this simple experiment:</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Consider any object lens image setup.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Bend the image screen and you will see the image is distorted, but no such distortion changes the object.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Now do the same thing but use your eye as the lens image part of the setup.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt"> Close one eye. With the other focus on an object - say a coffee cup on the desk 1 meter away. Now push the open eye from the side with your finger. This bends the retina and also moves or distorts the coffee cup.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">There is no physical mechanism in our current science that accounts for such a distortion of the coffee cup if the coffee cup you see is an independent object.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Conclusion: Neither the coffee cup nor anything we see in our daily environment is an independent objective reality. We are living in an interpretation of sensor interactions that is implemented by a physics inside the observer. Developing and defining this physics and straightening out the errors that have crept into our current physics due to the assumption that reality is the way we see it is the the the challenge confronting science today </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you want to look at the paper click on<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt"><a href="https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/3043" moz-do-not-send="true">https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/3043</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:13.5pt">If you want to rate it it might help me win, never know.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thanks<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Wolf<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Dr. Wolfgang Baer<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Research Director<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Nascent Systems Inc.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>E-mail <a href="mailto:wolf@NascentInc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@NascentInc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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