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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Hi Al<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>If we study the orbital decay of pulsars we can see two large massive objects with gravitational fields, co-orbiting.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>In this circumstance the gravitational field is not a stationary field.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>However, in this circumstance it is clear that the instantaneous force vector of gravity must point toward the instantaneous position of the masses or the orbits would decay MUCH faster than observed. So gravity cannot be a retarded force, the field itself must either have a distorted shape due to motion, or it must be instantaneous.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>I have run the requisite math to determine if a quantifiable rule could exist which causes field distortion which would create the appropriate force vectors. And there is no solution for distortion with motion which holds in all circumstances.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Therefore my conclusion is that the gravitational field is updated practically instantaneously.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Chip Akins<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> General [mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>af.kracklauer@web.de<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 12, 2019 8:03 AM<br><b>To:</b> general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' <general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>; Wolfgang Baer <wolf@nascentinc.com><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Velocity of gravitation<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Hi Albrecht:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>It helps some; but....<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>For my part, it seems to me that for sufficiently symmetric conditions (a planet's essentially circular orbit about the sun, say) that a planet cannot distinguish between running into a gravitational field at a point, x say, where the gravitational field is at the moment of the planet's arrival at x that ommited 8 min earlier and sun-directed, or one emmited instantainiously 0 min earlier. They would appear to the planet to be the same. Thus, I doubt the argument that delayed gravitational interaction would execute an orbit destroying torque, which in my mind matches up the wrong source and sink events and doesn't make geometric sense. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>What I suspect is that gravitation is a residue of the electromagnetic intereaction (via a delayed Coulomb's Law) ultimately caused by the discrepancy in the weights of the positive and negative charge carriers and thus their random motion and distribution about each other. This would nicely explain why the speed of gravity is (should be) exactly the speed of light. While I can't prove it, I imagine that if either speed were instantanious/infinite, that the universe would lock up so that there would be no motion at all. That is, delay makes for dynamcis. [for what it's worth, maybe nothing!]<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>ciao, Al<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-left:solid #C3D9E5 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-left:7.5pt;margin-top:7.5pt;margin-right:3.75pt;margin-bottom:3.75pt;word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space' name=quote><div style='margin-bottom:7.5pt'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Gesendet:</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> Montag, 11. Februar 2019 um 21:18 Uhr<br><b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <<a href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de">phys@a-giese.de</a>><br><b>An:</b> "'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'" <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>>, "Wolfgang Baer" <<a href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com">wolf@nascentinc.com</a>><br><b>Betreff:</b> [General] Velocity of gravitation<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div name=quoted-content><div><p style='background:white'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Hi Wolf, hi All,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white'>some time ago we had a discussion here about gravity. In particular about the question whether the propagation speed of the gravitational field is <b>c</b> or infinite. The problem behind is the fact that a finite propagation speed of gravity should cause rotating pairs of stars to permanently increase their speed, because the other star appears at a retarded position and so the force between the stars should have a tangential component. Our discussion ended at that time with the result that the Liénard-Wiechert potential would solve the problem.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white'>This was not very satisfying because the Liénard-Wiechert formalism is only about the field at a retarded time, and this description by itself does not solve this problem. I found that the solution is a completely different phenomenon. It is the fact (and as such well known in the physical literature) that fields like the electric field and also the gravitational field (our case) never show aberration. This is – according to literature – a well-known fact which is also theoretically well understood. But most are not aware of it, like me. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white'>Experimentally it can in the case of the electrical field be proven in the laboratory. And the motion of stars show it for the gravitational case. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white'>Do you feel that this helps?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white'>Albrecht<o:p></o:p></p><p style='background:white'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div id=DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><table class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellpadding=0 style='border:none;border-top:solid #D3D4DE 1.0pt'><tr><td width=58 style='width:41.25pt;border:none;padding:13.5pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><span style='text-decoration:none'><img border=0 width=46 height=29 id="_x0000_i1025" src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"></span></a><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=473 style='width:352.5pt;border:none;padding:12.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='line-height:13.5pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#41424E'>Virenfrei. <a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><span style='color:#4453EA'>www.avast.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>_______________________________________________ If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at <a href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a> <a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/af.kracklauer%40web.de?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1" target="_blank">Click here to unsubscribe </a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>