<div dir="ltr"><div>Al,</div><div><br></div><div>You are close to the answer. <br></div><div><ol><li>In a circular, or even
an elliptical orbit,
planetary orbit, there is no distinct retarded potential. The attractive point does not change.</li><li>In a binary system, there is possible retardation. The extreme example is that of positronium, which collapses. <br></li><li>Does it do it by radiation? The orbits at and below the atomic ground state do not have enough angular momentum to form a photon!</li></ol>Any orbits have established, bound fields (gravitational &/or EM). These are standing waves. In standing waves, the energy pre-exists all along the region. It changes the dielectric properties? Energy can be transmitted a >c. Can the speed be infinite? A measurable example is that of a microwave signal transmitted down a waveguide that is too small for resonant transfer at the carrier frequency. I don't have the reference; however, the signal in that case is super-luminal.</div><div><br></div><div>All bound EM fields, including photons (and even gravitational waves?), are standing (evanescent?) waves. Is this not a basis for the double-slit experiment results (and others, e.g., collapse of a wavefunction)?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Another example to consider is that of a light-pulse with an extremely fast rise time. When going thru a plate glass at an angle, the very initial portion of the pulse is not deflected (offset) by the glass. Is this because its leading edge is represented by a frequency that has a refractive index of one in the glass? Or, is it because there is a lag time in setting up the dielectric properties of the light path that can slow the pulse down and cause the observed refractive index for the remaining frequency components of the pulse?</div><div><br></div><div>Food for thought.</div><div><br></div><div>Andrew</div><div>_ _ _<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 11:28 AM <<a href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:12px"><div>Chip:</div>
<div>Can the pulsars be far enough apart, and the decay slow enough, that they'r circulating in each others previous cycle's field? I myself cannot equiliberate with the notion of "instantanious" interaction.</div>
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<div>---Al</div>
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<div style="margin:0px 0px 10px"><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 12. Februar 2019 um 15:29 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Chip Akins" <<a href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com" target="_blank">chipakins@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>An:</b> "'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'" <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] Velocity of gravitation</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hi Al</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">If we study the orbital decay of pulsars we can see two large massive objects with gravitational fields, co-orbiting.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">In this circumstance the gravitational field is not a stationary field.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">However, in this circumstance it is clear that the instantaneous force vector of gravity must point toward the instantaneous position of the masses or the orbits would decay MUCH faster than observed. So gravity cannot be a retarded force, the field itself must either have a distorted shape due to motion, or it must be instantaneous.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I have run the requisite math to determine if a quantifiable rule could exist which causes field distortion which would create the appropriate force vectors. And there is no solution for distortion with motion which holds in all circumstances.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Therefore my conclusion is that the gravitational field is updated practically instantaneously.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Chip Akins</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> General [mailto:<a href="mailto:general-bounces%2Bchipakins" target="_blank">general-bounces+chipakins</a>=<a href="mailto:gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de" target="_blank">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 12, 2019 8:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion' <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>>; Wolfgang Baer <<a href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com" target="_blank">wolf@nascentinc.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Velocity of gravitation</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Hi Albrecht:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">It helps some; but....</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">For my part, it seems to me that for sufficiently symmetric conditions (a planet's essentially circular orbit about the sun, say) that a planet cannot distinguish between running into a gravitational field at a point, x say, where the gravitational field is at the moment of the planet's arrival at x that ommited 8 min earlier and sun-directed, or one emmited instantainiously 0 min earlier. They would appear to the planet to be the same. Thus, I doubt the argument that delayed gravitational interaction would execute an orbit destroying torque, which in my mind matches up the wrong source and sink events and doesn't make geometric sense. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">What I suspect is that gravitation is a residue of the electromagnetic intereaction (via a delayed Coulomb's Law) ultimately caused by the discrepancy in the weights of the positive and negative charge carriers and thus their random motion and distribution about each other. This would nicely explain why the speed of gravity is (should be) exactly the speed of light. While I can't prove it, I imagine that if either speed were instantanious/infinite, that the universe would lock up so that there would be no motion at all. That is, delay makes for dynamcis. [for what it's worth, maybe nothing!]</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">ciao, Al</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Gesendet:</span></b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> Montag, 11. Februar 2019 um 21:18 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht Giese" <<a href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de" target="_blank">phys@a-giese.de</a>><br>
<b>An:</b> "'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'" <<a href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org" target="_blank">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>>, "Wolfgang Baer" <<a href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com" target="_blank">wolf@nascentinc.com</a>><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [General] Velocity of gravitation</span></p>
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<p style="background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Hi Wolf, hi All,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%">some time ago we had a discussion here about gravity. In particular about the question whether the propagation speed of the gravitational field is <b>c</b> or infinite. The problem behind is the fact that a finite propagation speed of gravity should cause rotating pairs of stars to permanently increase their speed, because the other star appears at a retarded position and so the force between the stars should have a tangential component. Our discussion ended at that time with the result that the Liénard-Wiechert potential would solve the problem.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%">This was not very satisfying because the Liénard-Wiechert formalism is only about the field at a retarded time, and this description by itself does not solve this problem. I found that the solution is a completely different phenomenon. It is the fact (and as such well known in the physical literature) that fields like the electric field and also the gravitational field (our case) never show aberration. This is – according to literature – a well-known fact which is also theoretically well understood. But most are not aware of it, like me.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%">Experimentally it can in the case of the electrical field be proven in the laboratory. And the motion of stars show it for the gravitational case.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%">Do you feel that this helps?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%">Albrecht</p>
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