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    <p>Hi All,</p>
    <p>we should be careful not to intermix two phenomena: <br>
    </p>
    <p>-  one question is whether a field (electrical or gravitational)
      propagates instantaneously or with a delay according to c (speed
      of light)<br>
      -  the other question is to which direction the field vector is
      pointing.</p>
    <p>The latter question was addressed by Chip when he mentioned a
      "distorted shape" of the field. <br>
    </p>
    <p>The calculation in the paper of S. Carlip, for which I have given
      a link, says that the field vector has a speed-dependent
      component. And that means, even if the field updates arrive at the
      test charge after a delay, the field vector will point to the
      actual position of the source charge. This has the consequence (a
      bit surprising) that if one would stop the motion of the source
      charge at some position, the test charge would notice the field as
      coming from a position which the source should have at that
      moment, but in fact dos not have at that moment.</p>
    <p>I find this explanation quite plausible. And as I wrote, if we
      assume a medium for the propagation of the field, then in a
      classical view there is generally no aberration. Take as an
      example a wave generated in water. This wave arrives at a moving
      observer from the same direction as at an observer at rest.</p>
    <p>Albrecht<br>
      <br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 13.02.2019 um 17:56 schrieb
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-c9a6b6fa-d7f8-473e-afcc-d86edd58d258-1550076961458@3c-app-webde-bap31">
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          <div>
            <div>Chip:</div>
            <div> </div>
            <div>As a convinced proponent of the error in QM (as first
              discovered by Edwin Jaynes) I cannot accept any explnation
              of instantanious interaction in terms of "wave function
              collapse."  Bell's "Theorem" is simply wrong, and all
              similar work contains the same error.  Entanglement is
              just correlation from a prior cause. No hokus-pokus!  </div>
            <div> </div>
            <div>Further, I see no reason a wrench has to arrise by
              delayed Coulomb-type intereaction. Again, it seems the
              error here is the association of the wrong source-sink
              pairs.  The direction of such interaction does not point
              to a position on a presumed past location in that the
              source is not moving relative to the sink in a straight
              line.  There are intertwined spirals, which are stable. 
              [The calculation of the involved force for the mutual
              circulation would also have to include the gravitational
              BXv (magnetic like) term, which I doubt has been done;
              correctly at least.  See O. D. Jefimenko.]</div>
            <div> </div>
            <div>Sorry, I just find much easier to beleive that mistakes
              were made than that instantanioua interaction makes sense.</div>
            <div> </div>
            <div>---Al</div>
            <div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding:
              10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5;
              word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
              -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
              <div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Mittwoch,
                13. Februar 2019 um 14:21 Uhr<br>
                <b>Von:</b> "Chip Akins" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><chipakins@gmail.com></a><br>
                <b>An:</b> "'Nature of Light and Particles - General
                Discussion'"
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a><br>
                <b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] Velocity of gravitation</div>
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                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Hi
                        Al</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Sorry
                        Al, I should have used the term binary star
                        instead of pulsar.</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">We
                        have experimental and physical evidence for <i>almost</i>
                        instantaneous action, (the orbits of binary
                        stars, wavefunction collapse, and the measured
                        “velocity” of the Coulomb field, entanglement).
                      </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">The
                        question is not whether this (almost)
                        instantaneous action exists, but rather, what
                        causes it?</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">If
                        gravity were a field which updates at the
                        velocity c, then the idea is that the motion of
                        the stars would cause the direction of gravity
                        (the gravity vector) to point toward where the
                        other star was in d/c time earlier, and not at
                        the instantaneous center of the other star. But
                        it seems that in all cases, the gravitational
                        and electric field vectors of stationary or
                        moving objects point toward the center of the
                        object, regardless of distance or velocity.</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Therefore
                        my conclusion is that the gravitational field is
                        updated <i>practically</i> instantaneously.</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Chip</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                    <div>
                      <div style="border: none;border-top: solid
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                        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:
                              11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                            style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family:
                            Calibri , sans-serif;"> General
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                            <b>On Behalf Of </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
                            <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 12, 2019 1:24
                            PM<br>
                            <b>To:</b>
                            <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
                            <b>Cc:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles -
                            General Discussion'
                            <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a><br>
                            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Velocity of
                            gravitation</span></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                            9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;"> 
                          </span></p>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                sans-serif;">Hi Chip:</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                sans-serif;">When "studying" the orbital
                                decay  of pulsars, it seems to me that
                                an increse in the decay implies a change
                                (presumably over and above that caused
                                by escaping radiation) in the angular
                                momentum or else directionally altered
                                attaction between the two or whatever. 
                                Where whould the energy thereto come
                                from or go to.  What are you assuming so
                                as to get the dissipative wrench action
                                on the pair for delayed ineteraction but
                                not there for instantanious
                                interaction?  How can whateveritis be
                                justififed?  Is the effect you propose
                                seen in binary stars too?   </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                sans-serif;">I can imagine that each
                                just sees a weaker pull together through
                                and towards the center of mass. </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                sans-serif;">BTW, as I see it, there are
                                no such THINGS as fields (or
                                photons/gravitons/aether etc.).  These
                                concepts are models that help associate
                                a force with human experience.  All that
                                is actually known is captured with just
                                Coulomb's (Gauss's) Law.  All the rest
                                is baggage.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
                                9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                sans-serif;">----Al</span></p>
                          </div>
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                            <div style="margin-bottom: 7.5pt;">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                                    style="font-size: 9.0pt;font-family:
                                    Verdana , sans-serif;">Gesendet:</span></b><span
                                  style="font-size: 9.0pt;font-family:
                                  Verdana , sans-serif;"> Dienstag, 12.
                                  Februar 2019 um 15:29 Uhr<br>
                                  <b>Von:</b> "Chip Akins" <<a
                                    href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
                                    onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:chipakins@gmail.com';
                                    return false;" target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">chipakins@gmail.com</a>><br>
                                  <b>An:</b> "'Nature of Light and
                                  Particles - General Discussion'" <<a
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                    return false;" target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br>
                                  <b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] Velocity
                                  of gravitation</span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;">Hi Al</span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;">If we study
                                      the orbital decay of pulsars we
                                      can see two large massive objects
                                      with gravitational fields,
                                      co-orbiting.</span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;">In this
                                      circumstance the gravitational
                                      field is not a stationary field.</span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;">However, in
                                      this circumstance it is clear that
                                      the instantaneous force vector of
                                      gravity must point toward the
                                      instantaneous position of the
                                      masses or the orbits would decay
                                      MUCH faster than observed. So
                                      gravity cannot be a retarded
                                      force, the field itself must
                                      either have a distorted shape due
                                      to motion, or it must be
                                      instantaneous.</span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;">I have run
                                      the requisite math to determine if
                                      a quantifiable rule could exist
                                      which causes field distortion
                                      which would create the appropriate
                                      force vectors. And there is no
                                      solution for distortion with
                                      motion which holds in all
                                      circumstances.</span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;">Therefore my
                                      conclusion is that the
                                      gravitational field is updated
                                      practically instantaneously.</span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;">Chip Akins</span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="color: black;"> </span></p>
                                  <div>
                                    <div style="border: none;border-top:
                                      solid rgb(225,225,225)
                                      1.0pt;padding: 3.0pt 0.0in 0.0in
                                      0.0in;">
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                                            style="font-size:
                                            11.0pt;font-family: Calibri
                                            , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:
                                          11.0pt;font-family: Calibri ,
                                          sans-serif;"> General [<a
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                            return false;"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
                                          <b>On Behalf Of </b><a
                                            href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de';
                                            return false;"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
                                          <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February
                                          12, 2019 8:03 AM<br>
                                          <b>To:</b> <a
                                            href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                            return false;"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
                                          <b>Cc:</b> 'Nature of Light
                                          and Particles - General
                                          Discussion' <<a
                                            href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                            return false;"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>>;
                                          Wolfgang Baer <<a
                                            href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com';
                                            return false;"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@nascentinc.com</a>><br>
                                          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [General]
                                          Velocity of gravitation</span></p>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            style="font-size:
                                            9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                            sans-serif;">Hi Albrecht:</span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            style="font-size:
                                            9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                            sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            style="font-size:
                                            9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                            sans-serif;">It helps some;
                                            but....</span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            style="font-size:
                                            9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                            sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            style="font-size:
                                            9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                            sans-serif;">For my part, it
                                            seems to me that for
                                            sufficiently symmetric
                                            conditions (a planet's
                                            essentially circular orbit
                                            about the sun, say) that a
                                            planet cannot distinguish
                                            between running into a
                                            gravitational field at a
                                            point, x say, where the
                                            gravitational field is at
                                            the moment of the planet's
                                            arrival at x that ommited 8
                                            min earlier and
                                            sun-directed,  or one
                                            emmited instantainiously 0
                                            min earlier.  They would
                                            appear to the planet to be
                                            the same.  Thus, I doubt the
                                            argument that delayed
                                            gravitational interaction
                                            would execute an orbit
                                            destroying torque, which in
                                            my mind matches up the wrong
                                            source and sink events and
                                            doesn't make geometric
                                            sense. </span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            style="font-size:
                                            9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                            sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            style="font-size:
                                            9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                            sans-serif;">What I suspect
                                            is that gravitation is a
                                            residue of the
                                            electromagnetic intereaction
                                            (via a delayed Coulomb's
                                            Law) ultimately caused by
                                            the discrepancy in the
                                            weights of the positive and
                                            negative charge carriers and
                                            thus their random motion and
                                            distribution about each
                                            other.   This would nicely
                                            explain why the speed of
                                            gravity is (should be)
                                            exactly the speed of light. 
                                            While I can't prove it, I
                                            imagine that if either speed
                                            were instantanious/infinite,
                                            that the universe would lock
                                            up so that there would be no
                                            motion at all.  That is,
                                            delay makes for dynamcis. 
                                            [for what it's worth, maybe
                                            nothing!]</span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            style="font-size:
                                            9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                            sans-serif;"> </span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            style="font-size:
                                            9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
                                            sans-serif;">ciao,  Al</span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div style="border:
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                                          rgb(195,217,229)
                                          1.5pt;padding: 0.0in 0.0in
                                          0.0in 8.0pt;margin-left:
                                          7.5pt;margin-top:
                                          7.5pt;margin-right:
                                          3.75pt;margin-bottom: 3.75pt;">
                                          <div style="margin-bottom:
                                            7.5pt;">
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  9.0pt;font-family:
                                                  Verdana , sans-serif;">Gesendet:</span></b><span
                                                style="font-size:
                                                9.0pt;font-family:
                                                Verdana , sans-serif;"> Montag,
                                                11. Februar 2019 um
                                                21:18 Uhr<br>
                                                <b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
                                                Giese" <<a
                                                  href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:phys@a-giese.de'; return
                                                  false;"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">phys@a-giese.de</a>><br>
                                                <b>An:</b> "'Nature of
                                                Light and Particles -
                                                General Discussion'"
                                                <<a
                                                  href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
                                                  return false;"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>>,
                                                "Wolfgang Baer" <<a
                                                  href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com';
                                                  return false;"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@nascentinc.com</a>><br>
                                                <b>Betreff:</b> [General]
                                                Velocity of gravitation</span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p style="background:
                                                white;"><span
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  9.0pt;font-family:
                                                  Verdana , sans-serif;">Hi
                                                  Wolf, hi All,</span></p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="background:
                                                white;">some time ago we
                                                had a discussion here
                                                about gravity. In
                                                particular about the
                                                question whether the
                                                propagation speed of the
                                                gravitational field is <b>c</b>
                                                or infinite. The problem
                                                behind is the fact that
                                                a finite propagation
                                                speed of gravity should
                                                cause rotating pairs of
                                                stars to permanently
                                                increase their speed,
                                                because the other star
                                                appears at a retarded
                                                position and so the
                                                force between the stars
                                                should have a tangential
                                                component. Our
                                                discussion ended at that
                                                time with the result
                                                that the
                                                Liénard-Wiechert
                                                potential would solve
                                                the problem.</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="background:
                                                white;">This was not
                                                very satisfying because
                                                the Liénard-Wiechert
                                                formalism is only about
                                                the field at a retarded
                                                time, and this
                                                description by itself
                                                does not solve this
                                                problem. I found that
                                                the solution is a
                                                completely different
                                                phenomenon. It is the
                                                fact (and as such well
                                                known in the physical
                                                literature) that fields
                                                like the electric field
                                                and also the
                                                gravitational field (our
                                                case) never show
                                                aberration. This is –
                                                according to literature
                                                – a well-known fact
                                                which is also
                                                theoretically well
                                                understood. But most are
                                                not aware of it, like
                                                me.</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="background:
                                                white;">Experimentally
                                                it can in the case of
                                                the electrical field be
                                                proven in the
                                                laboratory. And the
                                                motion of stars show it
                                                for the gravitational
                                                case.</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="background:
                                                white;">Do you feel that
                                                this helps?</p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="background:
                                                white;">Albrecht</p>
                                              <p style="background:
                                                white;"><span
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                                                  Verdana , sans-serif;"> </span></p>
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