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<p>Hi All,</p>
<p>we should be careful not to intermix two phenomena: <br>
</p>
<p>- one question is whether a field (electrical or gravitational)
propagates instantaneously or with a delay according to c (speed
of light)<br>
- the other question is to which direction the field vector is
pointing.</p>
<p>The latter question was addressed by Chip when he mentioned a
"distorted shape" of the field. <br>
</p>
<p>The calculation in the paper of S. Carlip, for which I have given
a link, says that the field vector has a speed-dependent
component. And that means, even if the field updates arrive at the
test charge after a delay, the field vector will point to the
actual position of the source charge. This has the consequence (a
bit surprising) that if one would stop the motion of the source
charge at some position, the test charge would notice the field as
coming from a position which the source should have at that
moment, but in fact dos not have at that moment.</p>
<p>I find this explanation quite plausible. And as I wrote, if we
assume a medium for the propagation of the field, then in a
classical view there is generally no aberration. Take as an
example a wave generated in water. This wave arrives at a moving
observer from the same direction as at an observer at rest.</p>
<p>Albrecht<br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 13.02.2019 um 17:56 schrieb
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-c9a6b6fa-d7f8-473e-afcc-d86edd58d258-1550076961458@3c-app-webde-bap31">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>
<div>
<div>Chip:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>As a convinced proponent of the error in QM (as first
discovered by Edwin Jaynes) I cannot accept any explnation
of instantanious interaction in terms of "wave function
collapse." Bell's "Theorem" is simply wrong, and all
similar work contains the same error. Entanglement is
just correlation from a prior cause. No hokus-pokus! </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Further, I see no reason a wrench has to arrise by
delayed Coulomb-type intereaction. Again, it seems the
error here is the association of the wrong source-sink
pairs. The direction of such interaction does not point
to a position on a presumed past location in that the
source is not moving relative to the sink in a straight
line. There are intertwined spirals, which are stable.
[The calculation of the involved force for the mutual
circulation would also have to include the gravitational
BXv (magnetic like) term, which I doubt has been done;
correctly at least. See O. D. Jefimenko.]</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sorry, I just find much easier to beleive that mistakes
were made than that instantanioua interaction makes sense.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>---Al</div>
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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Mittwoch,
13. Februar 2019 um 14:21 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Chip Akins" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"><chipakins@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "'Nature of Light and Particles - General
Discussion'"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] Velocity of gravitation</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Hi
Al</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Sorry
Al, I should have used the term binary star
instead of pulsar.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">We
have experimental and physical evidence for <i>almost</i>
instantaneous action, (the orbits of binary
stars, wavefunction collapse, and the measured
“velocity” of the Coulomb field, entanglement).
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">The
question is not whether this (almost)
instantaneous action exists, but rather, what
causes it?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">If
gravity were a field which updates at the
velocity c, then the idea is that the motion of
the stars would cause the direction of gravity
(the gravity vector) to point toward where the
other star was in d/c time earlier, and not at
the instantaneous center of the other star. But
it seems that in all cases, the gravitational
and electric field vectors of stationary or
moving objects point toward the center of the
object, regardless of distance or velocity.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Therefore
my conclusion is that the gravitational field is
updated <i>practically</i> instantaneously.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Chip</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border: none;border-top: solid
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0.0in 0.0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-family: Calibri , sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri , sans-serif;"> General
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 12, 2019 1:24
PM<br>
<b>To:</b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Nature of Light and Particles -
General Discussion'
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"><general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General] Velocity of
gravitation</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana , sans-serif;">
</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;">Hi Chip:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;">When "studying" the orbital
decay of pulsars, it seems to me that
an increse in the decay implies a change
(presumably over and above that caused
by escaping radiation) in the angular
momentum or else directionally altered
attaction between the two or whatever.
Where whould the energy thereto come
from or go to. What are you assuming so
as to get the dissipative wrench action
on the pair for delayed ineteraction but
not there for instantanious
interaction? How can whateveritis be
justififed? Is the effect you propose
seen in binary stars too? </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;">I can imagine that each
just sees a weaker pull together through
and towards the center of mass. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;">BTW, as I see it, there are
no such THINGS as fields (or
photons/gravitons/aether etc.). These
concepts are models that help associate
a force with human experience. All that
is actually known is captured with just
Coulomb's (Gauss's) Law. All the rest
is baggage.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;">----Al</span></p>
</div>
<div style="border: none;border-left: solid
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3.75pt;">
<div style="margin-bottom: 7.5pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 9.0pt;font-family:
Verdana , sans-serif;">Gesendet:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 9.0pt;font-family:
Verdana , sans-serif;"> Dienstag, 12.
Februar 2019 um 15:29 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Chip Akins" <<a
href="mailto:chipakins@gmail.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:chipakins@gmail.com';
return false;" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">chipakins@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>An:</b> "'Nature of Light and
Particles - General Discussion'" <<a
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
return false;" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [General] Velocity
of gravitation</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;">Hi Al</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;">If we study
the orbital decay of pulsars we
can see two large massive objects
with gravitational fields,
co-orbiting.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;">In this
circumstance the gravitational
field is not a stationary field.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;">However, in
this circumstance it is clear that
the instantaneous force vector of
gravity must point toward the
instantaneous position of the
masses or the orbits would decay
MUCH faster than observed. So
gravity cannot be a retarded
force, the field itself must
either have a distorted shape due
to motion, or it must be
instantaneous.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;">I have run
the requisite math to determine if
a quantifiable rule could exist
which causes field distortion
which would create the appropriate
force vectors. And there is no
solution for distortion with
motion which holds in all
circumstances.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;">Therefore my
conclusion is that the
gravitational field is updated
practically instantaneously.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;">Chip Akins</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border: none;border-top:
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0.0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-family: Calibri
, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:
11.0pt;font-family: Calibri ,
sans-serif;"> General [<a
href="mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a
href="mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:af.kracklauer@web.de';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">af.kracklauer@web.de</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February
12, 2019 8:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Nature of Light
and Particles - General
Discussion' <<a
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
return false;"
target="_blank"
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Wolfgang Baer <<a
href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@nascentinc.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [General]
Velocity of gravitation</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;">Hi Albrecht:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;">It helps some;
but....</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;">For my part, it
seems to me that for
sufficiently symmetric
conditions (a planet's
essentially circular orbit
about the sun, say) that a
planet cannot distinguish
between running into a
gravitational field at a
point, x say, where the
gravitational field is at
the moment of the planet's
arrival at x that ommited 8
min earlier and
sun-directed, or one
emmited instantainiously 0
min earlier. They would
appear to the planet to be
the same. Thus, I doubt the
argument that delayed
gravitational interaction
would execute an orbit
destroying torque, which in
my mind matches up the wrong
source and sink events and
doesn't make geometric
sense. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;">What I suspect
is that gravitation is a
residue of the
electromagnetic intereaction
(via a delayed Coulomb's
Law) ultimately caused by
the discrepancy in the
weights of the positive and
negative charge carriers and
thus their random motion and
distribution about each
other. This would nicely
explain why the speed of
gravity is (should be)
exactly the speed of light.
While I can't prove it, I
imagine that if either speed
were instantanious/infinite,
that the universe would lock
up so that there would be no
motion at all. That is,
delay makes for dynamcis.
[for what it's worth, maybe
nothing!]</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family: Verdana ,
sans-serif;">ciao, Al</span></p>
</div>
<div>
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<div style="margin-bottom:
7.5pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:
Verdana , sans-serif;">Gesendet:</span></b><span
style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:
Verdana , sans-serif;"> Montag,
11. Februar 2019 um
21:18 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Albrecht
Giese" <<a
href="mailto:phys@a-giese.de"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:phys@a-giese.de'; return
false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">phys@a-giese.de</a>><br>
<b>An:</b> "'Nature of
Light and Particles -
General Discussion'"
<<a
href="mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:general@lists.natureoflightandparticles.org';
return false;"
target="_blank"
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"Wolfgang Baer" <<a
href="mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com"
onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:wolf@nascentinc.com';
return false;"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">wolf@nascentinc.com</a>><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [General]
Velocity of gravitation</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="background:
white;"><span
style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:
Verdana , sans-serif;">Hi
Wolf, hi All,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:
white;">some time ago we
had a discussion here
about gravity. In
particular about the
question whether the
propagation speed of the
gravitational field is <b>c</b>
or infinite. The problem
behind is the fact that
a finite propagation
speed of gravity should
cause rotating pairs of
stars to permanently
increase their speed,
because the other star
appears at a retarded
position and so the
force between the stars
should have a tangential
component. Our
discussion ended at that
time with the result
that the
Liénard-Wiechert
potential would solve
the problem.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:
white;">This was not
very satisfying because
the Liénard-Wiechert
formalism is only about
the field at a retarded
time, and this
description by itself
does not solve this
problem. I found that
the solution is a
completely different
phenomenon. It is the
fact (and as such well
known in the physical
literature) that fields
like the electric field
and also the
gravitational field (our
case) never show
aberration. This is –
according to literature
– a well-known fact
which is also
theoretically well
understood. But most are
not aware of it, like
me.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:
white;">Experimentally
it can in the case of
the electrical field be
proven in the
laboratory. And the
motion of stars show it
for the gravitational
case.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:
white;">Do you feel that
this helps?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:
white;">Albrecht</p>
<p style="background:
white;"><span
style="font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:
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