[General] Physics in 100 years according to Wilczek

Sat Jul 4 17:01:02 PDT 2015

Dear Richard,

I am asking Mary to put this item on the questionaire that we will all be
asked to fill out.

My view is that, as the EM fields are AC, the energy density will be so as
well. Thus, the mass will vary as well and it cannot be measured directly.
However, + & - mass are both attractive so it will have gravitational mass.
Since the photon does not exist at rest, it has no rest mass. It can be
confined and the mass measured. Normally, its total mass is constant. If
reduced to a single wavelength, its confined mass may oscillate between a
finite value and zero. However, I don't think that it can be confined as a
single wavelength.

The neutrino, which can exist at rest, has restmass; but (in my view) its
mass may still not be  measurable because it is AC mass.

Andrew

On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 6:30 PM, Richard Gauthier <richgauthier at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Martin (and all)
>    You say at the end of “Light is Heavy”: "If the photon would be put to
> rest, its gravitational mass would equal its rest mass, and hence vanish.”  I
> think we can agree that the closest light can be to “rest” in a vacuum is
> if it traveling at light-speed in a closed circle (or at light-speed in a
> helix as seen from a moving frame) as in our electron models. I think the
> question “Does such a photon have a rest mass?” is fundamental to our
> electron models and I think it would be good if we were able to  agree on a
> consistent answer that can be backed by rational arguments. I claim that
> this circulating (circularly or helically-moving) photon does have a
> constant rest mass (that of the electron) since it has energy E=gamma mc^2
> but its average linear momentum is zero for a resting electron or p=gamma
> mv in the case of an electron moving with speed v (leading in either case
> to a calculation of rest mass m from the relativistic energy momentum
> equation E^2 = p^2 c^2 +m^2 c^4). Plus we know that an electron has a rest
> mass m so that the hypothetical photon composing the electron also must
> have the same rest mass m, whether the electron is moving or not. John W
> has indicated earlier (as I understood him) that this photon would not have
> a rest mass because the photon is moving at light-speed, but its
> confinement due to a pivot produces the rest mass of the electron. Martin
> seems to be saying in “Light is Heavy" that this circulating photon has a
> non-zero rest mass due to its self-confinement and so it is heavy. Are
> these two positions really different?  Could both of you make a brief
> clarifying statement about this point, briefly summarizing your reasons, so
> we can see the level of our agreement or disagreement on this point?  Also
> Chip, John D, John M, Vivian, Andrew?
>      Richard
>
> On Jul 4, 2015, at 6:24 AM, Chip Akins <chipakins at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you John D and Martin
>
> This is what I also thought.  Light must have a very small contribution to
> the universal gravitational field.  After all, it is made of the same
> “stuff” as everything else.
>
> Chip
>
> *From:* General [
> mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
> <general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>]
>  *On Behalf Of *Mark, Martin van der
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 04, 2015 8:13 AM
> *To:* Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [General] Physics in 100 years according to Wilczek
>
> Hi Chip,
> Yes it does, but the total mass in all the radiation in the universe is
> far less than that of matter, in the present era. In the first 300.000
> years after the big bang (whatever that was), the universe was plasma and
> radiation dominated. I would have to look into the details again to tell
> you more.
> As I am typing this I see John D giving a good answer as well.
> Cheers, oh and thanks for the compliments about my paper. I will remove
> some typo’s and deal with some questions in a later edition this week.
> Martin
>
> Dr. Martin B. van der Mark
> Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare
>
> Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven
> High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)
> Prof. Holstlaan 4
> 5656 AE  Eindhoven, The Netherlands
> Tel: +31 40 2747548
>
> *From:* General [
> mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
> <general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
> ] *On Behalf Of *Chip Akins
> *Sent:* zaterdag 4 juli 2015 14:38
> *To:* 'Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion'
> *Subject:* Re: [General] Physics in 100 years according to Wilczek
>
> Hi Martin
>
> Energy in space, which comprises light, has momentum, is affected by
> gravity, and when confined, can demonstrate all the observable effects of
> mass that fermions display.
>
> Light is affected by gravity, but a question for you, do you think that
> light also creates a gravitational field?  Does light contribute to the
> gravitation of the universe?
>
> Chip
>
> *From:* General [
> mailto:general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
> <general-bounces+chipakins=gmail.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>]
>  *On Behalf Of *Mark, Martin van der
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:18 AM
> *To:* David Mathes; Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
> *Cc:* jgw at elec.gla.ac.uk
> *Subject:* Re: [General] Physics in 100 years according to Wilczek
>
> Dear David,
> thanks for the reply.
> You have a preference regarding mass and energy that, indeed,  I
> definitely do not share.
> The essence is in fully grasping “light is heavy”. After that one will
> never accuse the photon of being massless and still having momentum, as if
> it were a mystery.
> You provide me with even more evidence that “light is heavy” is a paper
> that I should try to publish in a real Journal, not just a conference. It
> is, implicitly, the very basis of ALL the electron models people are
> proposing in this discussion group. By the way you are in the same league
> with Frank Wilzcek, regarding this point at least.
>
> For the coupling, I am sorry to let you down a bit, but you may have
> noticed the announcement of my second paper on topological solutions and
> 4-current. That will bring it closer.
> Actually, one of the things required for the knots to be stable is some
> form of self-interaction that could be calculated from Hamilton’s
> principle, as a starting point see paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/1211.6072,
> another essential ingredient for particles made out of pure fields.
> Then of course it is perfectly well allowed to come up with your own idea,
> and I would be very interested. The answer remains elusive, still …
> Very best regards,
> Martin
>
> Dr. Martin B. van der Mark
> Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare
>
> Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven
> High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)
> Prof. Holstlaan 4
> 5656 AE  Eindhoven, The Netherlands
> Tel: +31 40 2747548
>
> *From:* General [
> mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
> <general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
> ] *On Behalf Of *David Mathes
> *Sent:* vrijdag 3 juli 2015 19:58
> *To:* Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
> *Cc:* jgw at elec.gla.ac.uk
> *Subject:* Re: [General] Physics in 100 years according to Wilczek
>
> Martin
>
> A very stuffy paper.
>
> Mass and energy equivalence in this paper seems a bit one sided as if mass
> dominates the universe, a thoroughly Machian view. Except Machian is not a
> local view.  While I enjoy the Machian view that this paper and Rañada's
> work provide , the difficulty is the mass-energy relationship you have
> proposed seems a bit one sided as if mass reigned supreme above energy.
>
> p. 2  all energy has the same “essence”: it is mass 𝑚
>
> I prefer to thing the opposite. All mass has the same essence which is
> energy, not that all energy has mass. Mass is simply a special case of
> energy density or energy-momentum. After all, a massless photon has
> momentum.
>
> The flavors of mass need some clarity not addressed - gravitational,
> inertia, EM, and quantum. If one insists on using the strong force for an
> an example, then add strong mass. As to coupling, I was hoping that the
> level and type of coupling would have been addressed if only as a prelude
> to working with multiphysics programs such as COMSOL.
>
> David
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "Mark, Martin van der" <martin.van.der.mark at philips.com>
> *To:* David Mathes <davidmathes8 at yahoo.com>; Nature of Light and
> Particles - General Discussion <
> general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
> *Cc:* "jgw at elec.gla.ac.uk" <jgw at elec.gla.ac.uk>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 2, 2015 8:44 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [General] Physics in 100 years according to Wilczek
>
> David,
> As promised, my paper. This is the philosophical one.
> Protons and electrons are built from a continuous light-speed circulation
> of energy. That energy must take part in at least the electromagnetic
> interaction. Perhaps it is just  knotted light? In any case, quarks,
> gluons, strings, super-symmetrical particles, Planck-scale physics: all
> bullshit…well not entirely; the quark symmetry is there and should be there.
>
> The other one paper is pure mathematics and it shows how Maxwell’s
> equation support topological solutions (knots of fields) that may be
> charged, and how the knots are behaving as quantum mechanical objects (the
> knots are also solutions to the Dirac or Klein-Gordon equation), I am in
> the process of drafting the text around it. A non-linear condition makes
> that the solutions must also obey a null-condition (invariant, being a
> proper spinor). All that together with the winding numbers of the knots
> should give enough conditions to select out only a minor number of
> possibilities to survive…haven’t proven that yet.
> I will sent this second one in a few weeks time… actually it should be
> ready in two…
> Cheers, Martin
>
> Dr. Martin B. van der Mark
> Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare
>
> Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven
> High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)
> Prof. Holstlaan 4
> 5656 AE  Eindhoven, The Netherlands
> Tel: +31 40 2747548
>
>
>
> *From:* General [
> mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
> <general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
> ] *On Behalf Of *David Mathes
> *Sent:* donderdag 2 juli 2015 2:59
> *To:* Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
> *Subject:* [General] Physics in 100 years according to Wilczek
>
>
>
> All,
>
> As I look at all these different models of the electron, we have all
> carefully grasped the elephant somewhere on the outside in an attempt to
> figure out what's on the inside. In our quest to determine the heart of the
> electron, we have compared present day notes in hopes of future results. So
> any description of the elephant called electron can be reduced to a series
> of experimental results that already exist and a limits can be placed to
> confine any model to reasonableness.
>
> Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who is the fairest...oh, forget that. What I
> want to know...what does the future hold for quantum and quanta and is
> there at least a roadmap in physics.
> Specifically, what does the future hold in terms of photon models and
> photon-based electrons?
>
> That is a question open to interpretation but Wilczek at least provides a
> framework with a few directions in his paper published in March 2015.Summarized
> in a brief article on PBS website, Wilczek came out with a rather bold
> paper on musings and wishes available on Arxiv.
>
> A quick article from PBS...from
> How Physics Will Change—and Change the World—in 100 Years — NOVA Next | PBS
> <http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/physics/in-100-years/>
>
> The full paper....
> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.07735.pdf
>
> The paper was a fun read in spite of the physics and mathematics involved.
> Here is one of my favorite quotes:
>
> *"When Leon Cooper, on behalf of Brown University, asked me to contribute
> to their 250**th **anniversary by giving a talk *
> *about the next 250 years of physics, I of course accepted
> immediately. Then I thought about it. I soon realized that *
> *I’d taken on a task that is way beyond me, or (I suspect) anyone else.
> So as a first step I renormalized 250 **→ **100."*
>
> *"Here I indulge in wide-ranging speculations on the shape of physics, and
> technology closely related to physics, over the next one hundred years. *
> *Themes include the many faces of unification, the reimagining of quantum
> theory, and new forms of engineering on small, intermediate, and large
> scales."*
>
> My take is that given the rapid advances in quantum computing, and
> Kurzweil's pending Singularity, we should  consider the Wilczek paper a
> roadmap good for at least 20 years. We should also consider this paper
> somewhat as guidance to modeling photon and electron.
>
> Before looking forward, Wilczek summarizes the history of physics and
> mathematics where there has been unification. In the computer industry
> including Apple, HP, IBM and Microsoft, unification is also called
> integration. And in finance, mergers and acquisitions. But I digress.
>
> From history, Wilczek provide a summary of* unification* in specific
> fields. I'm sure there are others but these will do.
>
> *"Names are attached not as credit but a shorthand for developments:*
>
> *– **Unification of algebra and geometry (Descartes)*
> *– **Unification of celestial and terrestrial physics (Galileo, Newton) *
> *– *
> *Unification of mechanics and optics (Hamilton)**– *
> *Unification of electricity, magnetism, and optics (Maxwell)**– *
> *Unification of space and time (Einstein, Minkowski)**– **Unification of
> wave and particle (Einstein, de Broglie) *
> *– **Unification of reasoning and calculation (Boole, Turing) *
>
> *end"*
>
> So he continues on the theme of unification with the Standard Model and
> eventually leads us into Supersymmetry (SUSY).
>
> *"For reasons I’ve detailed in an Appendix, I think the most sensible
> procedure is to use “Standard Model” in its original sense, to mean the
> electroweak theory only. "*
>
> That's interesting since most of the electron models don't even mention
> electroweak and prefer classical or semi-classical form of EM. However,
> there are couple models that have the guts to go GUT and encompass the four
> basic forces (or five if one treats the B field separate from E) as well as
> declare there is a bottom, and it is spacetime. As background, note that
> the Standard Model can typically be summarized using symmetry groups as
>
> SU(3) × SU(2) × U(1) × SO(3,1)
>
> Keep in mind that Barrett using the appropriate extensions to Maxwell's
> equations (Maxwell 20)  confines his "Topological Electromagnistim" to
>
>
> EM only ... SU(3) × SU(2) × U(1)
>
> *Topological Foundations of Electromagnetism *
>
> http://aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-26j/aflb26jp055.pdf
>
> I have two noteworthy additions to the SM.  Electrons can be spin coupled,
> and there is the question of phat photons, So I've wondered if the proper
> investigative path might be
>
> N^2 hv == SU(4) X SU(3) × SU(2) × U(1) × SO(3,1)
>
> Any comment or correction on this view may be of help. And yes, I have
> seen the equations of the universe.
>
> From Sean Carroll
> The World of Everyday Experience, In One Equation
> <http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/01/04/the-world-of-everyday-experience-in-one-equation/>
>
>
> [image: image]
> <http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/01/04/the-world-of-everyday-experience-in-one-equation/>
>
>
>
>
>
> The World of Everyday Experience, In One Equation
> <http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/01/04/the-world-of-everyday-experience-in-one-equation/>
> Longtime readers know I feel strongly that it should be more widely
> appreciated that the laws underlying the physics of everyday life are
> completely understood. (If...
> View on *www.preposterousuni...*
> <http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/01/04/the-world-of-everyday-experience-in-one-equation/>
> Preview by Yahoo
>
>
> So as I look at the various models for this SPIE conference, I wonder what
> is the next unification?
>
> Could Unification of the photon and electron be next?
>
> Perhaps a topological description of inside the electron? Or could it be
> the unification of spacetime and waves that provides the key insight and
> breakthrough?
>
> Could it be we need to rethink how we think about things, and perhaps
> relearn a new way on how we learn how to learn?
>
>
> And what is inside the photon?
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> David
>
>
> ------------------------------
> The information contained in this message may be confidential and legally
> protected under applicable law. The message is intended solely for the
> addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
> notified that any use, forwarding, dissemination, or reproduction of this
> message is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the
> intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy
> all copies of the original message.
>
> _______________________________________________
> If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light
> and Particles General Discussion List at davidmathes8 at yahoo.com
> <a href="
> http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/davidmathes8%40yahoo.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1
> ">
> Click here to unsubscribe
> </a>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light
> and Particles General Discussion List at richgauthier at gmail.com
> <a href="
> http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1
> ">
> Click here to unsubscribe
> </a>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light
> and Particles General Discussion List at mules333 at gmail.com
> <a href="
> http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/mules333%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1
> ">
> Click here to unsubscribe
> </a>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/pipermail/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/attachments/20150704/9ea8dd0f/attachment.htm>