[General] relativistic mass
John Duffield
johnduffield at btconnect.com
Tue Oct 13 14:15:35 PDT 2015
Wolf:
I recommend that you think of gravity as a "trace force" left over because
opposite electromagnetic fields don't quite cancel one another. Start with
the current-in-the wire. It is surrounded by a magnetic field because the
electromagnetic fields don't quite cancel one another. Because the electrons
are moving. Then when you stop the electrons moving, they still don't quite
cancel one another.
I also recommend that you take a look at the Falaco soliton
<https://www.google.co.uk/#q=falaco+soliton> . It's a vortex, but not like
your plughole vortex. There is no sink, just a rotation. IMHO
gravitomagnetism is important too. See this
<http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2011/04may_epic/> and
remember frame-dragging. Think of the electromagnetic field as a "twist"
field. If you moved through it or it moved relative to you, you might think
of it as a "turn" field. In magnetism we speak of curl or rot, which is
short for rotor. That fits. So does the word spinor. Look at Maxwell
<https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_Physical_Lines_of_Force> 's page title.
Electrons and positron don't move linearly and rotationally because of some
kind of magic:
But co-rotating vortices do repel, whilst counter-rotating vortices attract:
Regards
John
From: General
[mailto:general-bounces+johnduffield=btconnect.com at lists.natureoflightandpar
ticles.org] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Baer
Sent: 13 October 2015 20:34
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
<general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Subject: Re: [General] relativistic mass
Yes, of course, one can calculate the energy and momentum exchange when a
Photon is absorbed, reflected
but when we equate EM energy with mass
we have mass as a source and sink of gravity, mass in kinetic energy and
momentum
How do we know these are all the same, that is what we are discussing?
I tend to favor thinking of EM as one domain of force, energy, etc where
charge is the source and sink
while Gravity and inertia as a second dominant force category where mass is
the source and sink parameter
An electromagntic disturbance can effect material absorption, emission,
reflection but
Whether on its own an EM disturbance has gravitational properties? Albrecht
says light bending is a refraction process.
Does an excited atom , not ionized, actually weigh more than one in a ground
state?
Certainly a Uranium atom weighs more than its fission products.
best
wolf
Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail wolf at NascentInc.com <mailto:wolf at NascentInc.com>
On 10/9/2015 5:00 PM, John Williamson wrote:
Dear Wolf,
Although light in a bottle has not been done (there is an interesting
argument about whether light entering a bottle would suck it towards or push
it away from source as it travels through the glass), many experiments have
measured light pressure per-se. There are now even (photon tweezer)
engineered systems one can buy in the shops using this principle.
If you want to chase this look at light-sails for spaceships literature and
understand three things: firstly why silver sails are faster (two times!)
than black ones, secondly why the sail force reduces both inverse-square and
by the (Doppler) redshift as one recedes from the source and thirdly -
special relativity. After that it is a simple matter to do the sums!
Regards, John.
_____
From: General
[general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightandparticl
es.org
<mailto:general-bounces+john.williamson=glasgow.ac.uk at lists.natureoflightand
particles.org> ] on behalf of Mark, Martin van der
[martin.van.der.mark at philips.com <mailto:martin.van.der.mark at philips.com> ]
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 12:08 PM
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Subject: Re: [General] relativistic mass
Dear Wolf,
No
Yes
Best, Martin
Dr. Martin B. van der Mark
Principal Scientist, Minimally Invasive Healthcare
Philips Research Europe - Eindhoven
High Tech Campus, Building 34 (WB2.025)
Prof. Holstlaan 4
5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Tel: +31 40 2747548
From: General
[mailto:general-bounces+martin.van.der.mark=philips.com at lists.natureoflighta
ndparticles.org]On Behalf Of Wolfgang Baer
Sent: vrijdag 9 oktober 2015 6:24
To: general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
<mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Subject: Re: [General] relativistic mass
Has anyone ever measured the gravitational weight of light in a bottle?
Does a hot hollow ball weigh more than a cold one?
WOlf
Dr. Wolfgang Baer
Research Director
Nascent Systems Inc.
tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
E-mail wolf at NascentInc.com <mailto:wolf at NascentInc.com>
On 10/8/2015 3:51 PM, Adam K wrote:
Hi Martin,
Yes, general relativity. That link references the book I keep quoting in
this discussion list, which is all about general relativity. Schrodinger
introduces the basic idea and its consequences very lucidly.
The origin of mass was always the sticking point of this theory, and was
where Einstein focused his efforts for many decades. He called the
representation of mass in the theory an asylum ignorantiae.
Adam
On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Mark, Martin van der
<martin.van.der.mark at philips.com <mailto:martin.van.der.mark at philips.com> >
wrote:
Dear Adam K,
Thank you for the quote, and isn't it a puzzling one? "The deflection is due
to gravitation AND mass!!" Well that is one mass too many, in my opinion,
but i think this should be interpreted as if not just Newtonion gravitation
is working but, instead, general relativity (which includes corrections to
the former).
John D, i have not recently responded to your comments, but thank you very
much indeed for the useful explanations combined with your great sense of
humor! The helicopter one with not finding the hard bits actually made it
physically impossible for me to hit the small keys on my phone for a while.
Cheers!
Very best regards, Martin
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone
Op 8 okt. 2015 om 23:23 heeft "davidmathes8 at yahoo.com
<mailto:davidmathes8 at yahoo.com> " <davidmathes8 at yahoo.com
<mailto:davidmathes8 at yahoo.com> > het volgende geschreven:
Adam
For the light rays near the sun, wouldn't one need not just E & M fields.
To identify the gravitational component,one would have to rigorous eliminate
effects from the weak and strong forces as well.
Also, there may be some value in considering Dirac's symmetric version of
the Maxwell equations. In doing so, magnetism should be considered as a
separate force, a fifth force if you will.
David
_____
From: Adam K <afokay at gmail.com <mailto:afokay at gmail.com> >
To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
<general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
<mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> >
Sent: Thursday, October 8, 2015 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [General] relativistic mass
With the danger of producing the impression that I have only read one book,
Martin I thought you would enjoy this quote:
The deflection of light rays that pass near the sun is not a purely
gravitational phenomenon, it is due to the fact that an electromagnetic
field possesses energy and momentum, hence also mass.
>From page 1, here:
http://strangebeautiful.com/other-texts/schrodinger-st-struc.pdf
Adam
On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Mark, Martin van der
<martin.van.der.mark at philips.com <mailto:martin.van.der.mark at philips.com> >
wrote:
Dear Andrew,
The paper "light is heavy" is no more, and no less, than a supposedly
didactic and the only consistent explanation of special relativity and its
consequences. Most important points are that there are some confusions:
1) mass is not matter
2) energy is equivalent, exactly the same as, mass: E=mc^2
3) light is massive, both in the inertial and gravitational sense, as is
obvious from experiment
4) the greatest confusion is about light being massless, which indeed it
would be if it couldn't/didn't move. The whole point is that light is always
moving at the speed of light, so it is a non-existing limit.
Weighing a box with a molecular gas, or that of a "photon" gas give the same
kind of result: the gravitational mass of the gas plus the weight of the
box. Light is gravitationally deflected by large masses, experimentally.
Light carries momentum and energy.
There is nothing new in what i say, it is consistent with Einsteinian
relativity an represents the vision of Herman weyl too, and many others
Best, Martin
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone
> Op 8 okt. 2015 om 19:52 heeft Andrew Meulenberg <mules333 at gmail.com
<mailto:mules333 at gmail.com> > het volgende geschreven:
>
> Dear Martin,
>
> In your "Light is Heavy" you state:
>
> "In the case of light, the rest mass is zero, but the gravitational mass
equals the inertial mass, which is identical to the relativistic mass."
>
> Do you have any reference for my contention that the relativistic mass of
particles is bound EM-radiation?
>
> In the case of electron/positron annihilation, restmass is converted to
relativistic mass & then to radiation. However, I do not know of any text or
paper that identifies relativistic mass as bound EM-radiation. Your
statement is close to that.
>
> Andrew
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