[General] De Broglie Wave and beyond

Roychoudhuri, Chandra chandra.roychoudhuri at uconn.edu
Tue Feb 9 05:32:53 PST 2016


Hello Everybody: I am in complete agreement with Al. Only our written expressions are very different – language and culture, I presume!

Al: My energy behind facilitating this conference series and this web discussion are based on this simple belief:
      Any and all organized bodies of knowledge constructed by humans (whether meant for social engineering or nature engineering) are necessarily incomplete as they have been based upon postulates that are insufficient to capture all ontic rules behind our cosmic system. (In your language, only God knows the ontic truth!)

This is also the reason why I have repeatedly been saying that it is high time for us to collect all the foundational postulates behind all the “working” theories and then restructure them to bring better harmony in them and move towards a more “unified” theory. But, that will not be the final theory. We will have to keep on iterating our “working “ theories forever until we attain Nirvana (a complete understanding about the meaning and the purpose behind this universe).
     How do we keep the iteration in the right direction over centuries and millennia? Interaction processes that give rise to the manifest and evolving universe (and also data in our instruments) are much closer to the ontic reality than our data and math that models them. This is the reason why have articulated that we should add Interaction Process Mapping Epistemology (IPM-E) over and above our prevailing Measurable Data Modeling Epistemology (MDM-E).
     To further assist in harmonizing all fields of human endeavors, I have proposed, “Urgency of evolution process congruent thinking”. This is nothing but reverse system engineering thinking; rather than abstract mathematical thinking alone. This will help honest intellectuals to culturally shame and eliminate forces like “Climate change deniers”, “Believers of perpetually growing capitalism as the best economic solution even it means destroying the biosphere”, etc., etc. By the way, “Capital” politically controls the means of production. Real wealth creation is done by entrepreneurs, managers and workers working in harmony.

Sincerely,
Chandra.

From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of af.kracklauer at web.de
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2016 9:01 PM
To: general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
Cc: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion
Subject: Re: [General] De Broglie Wave

Hi Chandra et al.:

From the view point I espouse there are two utterly distinct entities in play here.  One is the phenomena before any scientist ever thought of analyizing it, i.e., its ontological essence; and Two: the mathematical plus story told by human explicators of such phenomena.  The former is what some would say "God made."  The latter is what humans made/make.  For the latter, various notions might be found convenient that "God" never exploited in the first place.  Such a notion is, for example, that of "field."  It is a hypothetical, imaginay aid to thinking (mostly calculating) about the relevant phenomena, but fields do not necessarily exist as ontological stuff.  God (or whoever, whtever set it all up) did not consult Huygens first, it's the other way around.  Huygens consulted God (i.e., went to the lab an examined "what God hath whrot") and then cooked up a story with math to assit in talking about what he experienced in the lab.  Huygens' succesful, that is: useful, story cannot in and of itself elevate whatever intermediary notions he used to the level of ontology.  It could be that, the players in the intermediat steps of his story are all imaginay, even while his explantion "works" for predicting what the consequences of the phenomena of interset can, or must, be.

My only dog in this fight is that, by unconscioulsly considering what are imaginary concepts without recognizing them as such is most likely going to lead to mythology and not understaning.  The world has enough "multiverses, entanglement, wave collapse," etc., etc. (not to mention their political, psychological, sociological, parallel universes!).

ciao,  Al

Gesendet: Montag, 08. Februar 2016 um 23:01 Uhr
Von: "Roychoudhuri, Chandra" <chandra.roychoudhuri at uconn.edu<mailto:chandra.roychoudhuri at uconn.edu>>
An: "Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion" <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org<mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>>, "Eric Reiter" <unquant at yahoo.com<mailto:unquant at yahoo.com>>
Betreff: Re: [General] De Broglie Wave
To Wolf B., Al K. and the rest of our community:

Wolf: A wide range of “optical antennas” are being worked upon by many:
http://www.optics.rochester.edu/workgroups/novotny/papers/novotny09b.pdf

Al: Huygens postulated that every point in space functions as a source for a new secondary wavelet. This has been used by Fresnel to formulate the Huygens-Fresnel Diffraction Integral. Optical science and engineering will simply collapse if you succeed in wiping out the knowledge of HF-integral out of all books and minds! It is because of this sustained success of Huygens postulate, I have added the new postulate (on that of Huygens) that space is a physical Complex Tension Field (CTF; modified ether). CTF is capable of generating the oscillatory electric and magnetic potential gradients (your “source”) under proper external excitation. This oscillation is then perpetually pushed away as EM waves through CTF so it can locally come back to its state of quiescence before the excitation. This is also the root of energy conservation. CTF is unable to assimilate EM wave energy, to the first degree. EM wave is some form of perturbation energy inserted in it by some physical dipole, already existing in it as a localized structure. These dipoles also function as a sink for EM waves. This “merry-go-round” universe is being played in the CTF!

Back to “Optical Antenna”. I refer to this phenomenon as detecting dipoles behaving as “quantum cups” in my book; based upon some of the resonance fluorescence experiment we have done. Atomic dipoles, in a low pressure tube, can absorb energy out of 10 to 100-Lambda cubed volume from ALL the existing resonant waves within that volume. The parent tension field holding the energy as its oscillation is eager to donate the tension-perturbed energy to the dipole “sink”. I call the process as simultaneous “push” by the tension field and “pull” by the resonant (sink) dipole.  Light as “indivisible quanta” was a rebellious attempt by young Einstein to over-ride Herr Planck’s to get some serious attention; which he did get at the cost of thrusting physics backward for a century. Planck’s life-long assertion that light consists of non-interacting and diffractively spreading waves; albeit being emitted and absorbed in discrete quantities in amounts “h-nu”.  Single and get some attention; Even non-diffracting Gamma keeps on delivering energy in a series of encounters with nucleon after nucleons.

Sincerely,
Chandra.


From: General [mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Baer
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2016 3:15 PM
To: general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org<mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>; Eric Reiter
Subject: Re: [General] De Broglie Wave

Al:
Glad to hear you say "wave function collpase in any version is a bag of crap!"

However to prove it we would need to build or design a simultaneous monte-carlo simulation analog probability computer that can simultaneously hold multiple scenarios as reversible branches which explore various possibilities and then physically pull back from all but the chosen outcome.
I think my brain and perhaps a quantum computer could work that way.

Its a project I've been intending to follow-up on but perhaps it has already been done. References welcome.

thanks
wolf

Also if atoms could be shown to act like resonance absorbing antennas then arrays of them would respond to wide area EM waves but only one would succeed in pulling in a quantum of energy. Its a version of Loading theory ( see Eric Reiters paper in te SPIE vol) that could provide a physical mechanism for an EM wave collapse.

wb

Dr. Wolfgang Baer Research Director Nascent Systems Inc. tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432 E-mail wolf at NascentInc.com
On 2/8/2016 11:48 AM, af.kracklauer at web.de wrote:
Hi Hodge et al.

Well that's one way (and much more efficient one) of looking at it.

However, I think your redition of wave function collapse is not the fully orthodox version which supposes that the collapse occures by agency of a sentient being.

And, from Albrecht's point of view, the calculation of the band pattern done aforehand in accord with what he wants to call the conventional understanding should come out different than the actual result.  For him, the issue is inconsistence of the theory rather than mysterious lab results.  I gather, he would agree that the pattern does not change for the moving observer and conclude that, that fact is symptomatic of inconsistency in the conventional understanding of deB waves.

FYI:  I hold that wave function collpase in any version is a bag of crap!  My arguments are fully given on www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com<http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com>.

Best, Al

Gesendet: Montag, 08. Februar 2016 um 19:03 Uhr
Von: "Hodge John" <jchodge at frontier.com><jchodge at frontier.com>
An: "Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion" <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org><general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
Betreff: Re: [General] De Broglie Wave
The screen is the "observer" that causes the collapse of the wavefunctin. A moving human will see bands. Will the bands be in a different position if the human is moving?



On Monday, February 8, 2016 11:20 AM, "af.kracklauer at web.de"<af.kracklauer at web.de> <af.kracklauer at web.de><af.kracklauer at web.de> wrote:

Hi Albrecht:

Your challenge is easy!  In fact my last responce covered it.   The RELEVANT velocity is the relative velocity between the particle and the slit; not that between the observer-particle or observer-slit.   An observer will see all kinds of distortions of the events, starting with simple persepctive due to being at some distance from the slit and its registration screen.  In additon this observer will see those deB waves affecting the particle (NOT from the particle, nor from the slit, but from the universal background there before either the particle or slit came into being)  as perspectively-relativistically distorted (twin-clock type distortion).  BUT, the observer will still see the same over-all background because the totality of background signals (not just those to which this particle is tuned), i.e., its spectral energy density, is itself Lorentz invariant.  That is, the observer's  motion does not  enable it to empirically distinguish between the background in the various frames, nor does the background engender friction forces.

You have got to get your head around the idea that deB waves are independant of particles whatever their frame.

Schrördinger did toy with some aspects that deBroglie used, but never did succeed in rationalizing his eq. in those or any other terms.  For him, when died, wave functions were ontologically completely mysterious.  From SED proponents, I'm told, my thoughts in #7 on www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com<http://www.nonloco-physics.0catch.com>, are unique in formulating S's eq. in terms of deB concepts.  Try it, maybe you'll like it.

There are other SED-type stories too, but as they are based on diffusion (parabolic, not hyperbolic) precesses, I find them self contradictory.

ciao, Al

Gesendet: Montag, 08. Februar 2016 um 141 Uhr
Von: "Albrecht Giese" <genmail at a-giese.de><genmail at a-giese.de>
An: af.kracklauer at web.de
Cc: general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org, "Richard Gauthier" <richgauthier at gmail.com><richgauthier at gmail.com>
Betreff: Re: [General] De Broglie Wave
Hi Al,

if you follow de Broglie, you should have an explanation for the following experiment (here again):

Electrons move at 0.1 c towards the double slit. Behind the double slit there is an interference pattern generated, which in the frame of the slit follows the rule of de Broglie. But now there is an observer also moving at 0.1 c parallel to the beam of electrons. In his frame the electrons have momentum=0 and so wavelength=infinite. That means: No interference pattern. But there is in fact a pattern which does not disappear just because there is another observer. And the moving observer will see the pattern. - This is a falsification of de Broglie's rule. What else?

The understanding that the de Broglie wave is a property of the particle (even though depending on their speed, but not on an interaction) was not my idea but the one of Schrödinger and Dirac and many others. Also by de Broglie himself.

Ciao Albrecht


Am 08.02.2016 um 03:30 schrieb af.kracklauer at web.de:
Hi Albrecht:

BUT, the laws of Physics for "being" in a frame are not the laws for interacting between frames!  The deB. wave is not a feature of a particle in its own frame, but a feature of the interaction of such a particle with at least one other particle in another frame.  When the two frames are moving with respect to each other, then the features of the interaction cannot be Lorentz invariants.  When one particle is interacting with another particle (or ensemble---slit say) the relevant physics is determined by the deB wave in that sitation, whatever it looks like to an observer in a third frame with yet different relative velocities.  It is a perspective effect: a tree is the same ontological size in fact no matter how small it appears to distant observers.  Observed diminished size(s) cannot be "invriant."  Appearances =/= ,,so sein''.

You have gotten your head stuck on the idea that deB. waves are characteristics intrinsic to particles in an of themselves.  Recalibrate!  DeB waves are charactteristics of the mutual interaction of particles.

Best, Al

Gesendet: Sonntag, 07. Februar 2016 um 22:10 Uhr
Von: "Albrecht Giese" <genmail at a-giese.de><genmail at a-giese.de>
An: af.kracklauer at web.de
Cc: general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org, "Richard Gauthier" <richgauthier at gmail.com><richgauthier at gmail.com>
Betreff: Re: [General] De Broglie Wave
Hi Al,

at one of your points I really disagree. The physical laws have to be fulfilled in every frame. That means that all physical processes have to obey the same laws in all frames. So also the process at the double slit. But the rule given by de Broglie looks correct in only one frame, that is the frame where the double slit is at rest. For an observer in motion the diffraction pattern looks very similar as for the observer at rest, but for the observer in motion the results according to de Broglie are completely different, because the momentum of the particle is different in a wide range in the frame of a moving observer and so is the wavelength assigned to the particle.

The specific case: At electron scattering, the observer co-moving with the electron will see a similar pattern as the observer at rest, but de Broglie says that for this observer there does not exist any pattern. That is strongly incorrect.

The Schrödinger equation and also the Dirac function should have correct results in different frames, at least at non-relativistic speeds. This requirement is clearly violated through their use of de Broglie's rule.

Grüße
Albrecht

PS: Your article refers to "Stochastic Electrodynamics". That is in my knowledge not standard physics and so a new assumption.


Am 07.02.2016 um 19:03 schrieb af.kracklauer at web.de:
Hi Albrecht:

In my view the story in my paper has no new assunptions, rather new words for old assumptions.  As I, along with most others, see it, there is no conflict with experiment, but a less than fully transparent explantion for experimental observations (particle beam diffrction) otherwise unexplained.  At the time of writing, and nowadays too (although I'd to think that my paper rationalizes DeB's story) it was the most widely accepted story for this phenomna.

The only entities that logically need to be Lorentz invariant are the particle.  I the deB wave is not a 'Bestandteil' of the particle, but of its relations with its envionment, then invariance is not defined nor useful.

M.f.G.  Al

Gesendet: Sonntag, 07. Februar 2016 um 14:39 Uhr
Von: "Albrecht Giese" <genmail at a-giese.de><genmail at a-giese.de>
An: af.kracklauer at web.de
Cc: general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org, "Richard Gauthier" <richgauthier at gmail.com><richgauthier at gmail.com>
Betreff: Re: [General] De Broglie Wave
Hi Al,

thank you for your reference. Your paper has a lot of intelligent thoughts but also a lot of additional assumptions. With reference to the de Broglie wave, I think, is the situation much simpler on the level of conservative knowledge. De Broglie has misunderstood relativity (particularly dilation) and so seen a conflict which does in fact not exist. He has solved the conflict by inventing an additional "fictitious" wave which has no other foundation in physics, and also his "theorem of harmonic phases" which as well is an invention without need. And his result is in conflict with the experiment if we ask for Lorentz invariance or even for Galilean invariance. -  If we follow the basic idea of de Broglie by, however, avoiding his logical error about relativity, we come easily to a description of matter waves without logical conflicts. This does not need new philosophy or other effort at this level.

Best, Albrecht


Am 06.02.2016 um 03:15 schrieb af.kracklauer at web.de:
Hi Albrecht:

DeBroglie's verbage is indeed quite rococo!  Nonetheless, his machinations, although verbalized, in the true tradtion of quantum mechanics, mysteriously, can be reinterpreted (i.e., alternate verbage found without changing any of the math) so as to tell a fully, if (somewhat) hetrodoxical, story.  See #11 on www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com<http://www.Nonloco-Physics.0catch.com>.

cc:  Waves are never a characteristic of a single, point-like entity, but colletive motion of a medium.  IF they exist at all.  My view is that E&M waves are a fiction wrought by Fourier analysis.  The only real physical part is an "interaction", which mnight as well be thought of an absract string between charges.  Also, neutrons have electric multipole moments; i.e., they are totally neutral but not charge-free.

Best,  Al

Gesendet: Freitag, 05. Februar 2016 um 21:43 Uhr
Von: "Albrecht Giese" <genmail at a-giese.de><genmail at a-giese.de>
An: af.kracklauer at web.de, general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
Cc: "Richard Gauthier" <richgauthier at gmail.com><richgauthier at gmail.com>
Betreff: Re: [General] De Broglie Wave
Hi Al,

true, in the frame of the particle the dB wavelength is infinite. Because in its own frame the momentum of the particle is 0. The particle oscillates with the frequency of the particle's Zitterbewegung (which background fields do you have in mind? De Brogie does not mention them). This oscillation is in no contradiction with this wavelength as the phase speed is also infinite. For the imagination, the latter means that all points of that wave oscillate with the same phase at any point.

Which  background waves do you have in mind? What is the CNONOICAL momentum? And what about E&M interactions? De Broglie has not related his wave to a specific field. An E&M field would anyway have no effect in the case of neutron scattering for which the same de Broglie formalism is used. And into which frame do you see the wave Lorentz-transformed?

So, an electron in his frame has an infinite wavelength and in his frame has the double slit moving towards the particle. How can an interference at the slits occur? No interference can happen under these conditions. But, as I have explained in the paper, the normal wave which accompanies the electron by normal rules (i.e. phase speed = c) will have an interference with its own reflection, which has then a wavelength which fits to the expectation of de Broglie. But that is a very local event (in a range of approx. 10^-12 m for the electron) and it is not at all a property of the electron as de Broglie has thought.

To say it again: The de Broglie wavelength cannot be a steady property of the particle. But Schrödinger and Dirac have incorporated it into their QM equations with this understanding.

If I should have misunderstood you, please show the mathematical calculations which you mean.

Ciao, Albrecht


Am 05.02.2016 um 19:20 schrieb af.kracklauer at web.de:
Hi: Albrecht:

Your arguments don't resonate with me.  The deB' wave length is infinite in the particles frame: it is the standing wave formed by the inpinging background waves having a freq. = the particle's Zitterbewegung.  If these TWO waves are each Lorentz x-formed to another frame and added there, they exhibit exactly the DeB' modulation wavelength proportional to the particle's momentum.  The only mysterious feature then is that the proportionality is to the CNONICAL momentum, i.e., including the vector potential of whatever exterior E&M interactions are in-coming.  Nevertheless, everything works our without contradiction.  A particle oscillates in place at its Zitter freq. while the Zitter signals are modulated by the DeB' wavelength as they move through slits, say.

ciao,  L

Gesendet: Freitag, 05. Februar 2016 um 12:28 Uhr
Von: "Albrecht Giese" <genmail at a-giese.de><genmail at a-giese.de>
An: "Richard Gauthier" <richgauthier at gmail.com><richgauthier at gmail.com>, general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
Betreff: Re: [General] De Broglie Wave
Hi Richard and Al, hi All,

recently we had a discussion here about two topics:

1. The functionality of the de Broglie wave, particularly its wavelength
if seen from a different inertial system. Such cases lead to illogical
situations.
2. The problem of the apparent asymmetry at relativistic dilation.

I have investigated these cases and found that they are in some way
connected. Relativistic dilation is not as simple as it is normally
taken. It looks asymmetric if it is incorrectly treated. An asymmetry
would falsify Special Relativity. But it is in fact symmetrical if
properly handled and understood.

It is funny that both problems are connected to each other through the
fact that de Broglie himself has misinterpreted dilation. From this
incorrect understanding he did not find another way out than to invent
his "theorem of phase harmony"; with all logical conflicts resulting
from this approach.

If relativity is properly understood, the problem seen by de Broglie
does not exist. Equations regarding matter waves can be derived which
work properly, i.e. conform to the experiments but avoid the logical
conflicts.

As announced, I have composed a paper about this. It can be found at:

https://www.academia.edu/21564534/The_Conflict_with_the_De_Broglie_Wavelength
.

I thank Richard Gauthier for the discussion which we had about this
topic. It caused me to investigate the problem and to find a solution.

Albrecht





---
Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

_______________________________________________
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at af.kracklauer at web.de
<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/af.kracklauer%40web.de?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"<http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/af.kracklauer%40web.de?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1>>
Click here to unsubscribe
</a>

Diese E-Mail wurde von einem virenfreien Computer gesendet, der von Avast geschützt wird.
www.avast.com<http://www.avast.com>


Diese E-Mail wurde von einem virenfreien Computer gesendet, der von Avast geschützt wird.
www.avast.com<http://www.avast.com>


Diese E-Mail wurde von einem virenfreien Computer gesendet, der von Avast geschützt wird.
www.avast.com<http://www.avast.com>


Diese E-Mail wurde von einem virenfreien Computer gesendet, der von Avast geschützt wird.
www.avast.com<http://www.avast.com>


_______________________________________________
If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at jchodge at frontier.com
<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/jchodge%40frontier.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1">
Click here to unsubscribe
</a>


_______________________________________________ If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at af.kracklauer at web.de Click here to unsubscribe <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/af.kracklauer%40web.de?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1>




_______________________________________________

If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at Wolf at nascentinc.com

<a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/wolf%40nascentinc.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1"<http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/wolf%40nascentinc.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1>>

Click here to unsubscribe

</a>

_______________________________________________ If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at af.kracklauer at web.de<mailto:af.kracklauer at web.de> Click here to unsubscribe <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/af.kracklauer%40web.de?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/pipermail/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/attachments/20160209/3b25f56a/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 9570-07_Epistem._0908_Dissem.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 307930 bytes
Desc: 9570-07_Epistem._0908_Dissem.pdf
URL: <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/pipermail/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/attachments/20160209/3b25f56a/attachment.pdf>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 2016.0_Override Pardgm.Shft..pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 246554 bytes
Desc: 2016.0_Override Pardgm.Shft..pdf
URL: <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/pipermail/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/attachments/20160209/3b25f56a/attachment-0001.pdf>


More information about the General mailing list