[General] double photon cycle, subjective v objective realities

Sat Jul 23 21:16:23 PDT 2016

Hi,
  At the end of the first paragraph I meant “as v -> c" not “as v-> infinity”.  Apologies.

> On Jul 23, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Richard Gauthier <richgauthier at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Grahame (and Chip and John W and others),
> 
>     Chip and I were discussing just this issue about my spin 1/2 photon model of the electron a little over a month ago. So I plotted a rough calculation (shown in yellow) of a spin 1/2 photon model’s calculated longitudinal spin versus velocity (v/c) and against gamma, including a) the longitudinal rotational component of spin that in my model falls as 1/2gamma^2 and b) the longitudinal component 1/2 v/c = 1/2  cos (theta) where theta is the helical angle, as you mentioned in your last email. I plotted and compared this calculation with the results if if the photon’s spin is spin 1 (shown in blue) instead of spin 1/2 (shown in yellow).  The graph for my model starts at spin 1/2 at v=0 and returns to spin 1/2 as v= -> infinity (where v=c). My graph has a maximum spin of S=0.625 when v/c= 0.5
> 
>     I call this a rough calculation because it doesn’t include specific details about the model of the spin 1/2 or spin 1 photon that is circulating to form the electron model. Those details COULD make the yellow line flat at spin 1/2 for all speeds, but I haven’t done the calculations yet for my detailed spin 1/2 photon model, which has internally superluminal helical motion at c sqrt(2) for linear photon motion and has spin 1/2 at all wavelengths. You’re right that it would be quite remarkable if my spin 1/2 photon model gave a flat spin 1/2 line for all velocities, but what if it does?
> 
> 
> Here are my comments I made to Chip about the graphs at that time:
> 
> Below is  my total spin plot for a moving electron with cos  theta = v/c and spin total spin is  0.5 ( 1/gamma^2 + cos theta )  versus v/c (going from 0 to 1) for both the double-looping circulating spin 1/2 photon (my model, yellow) and a double-looping circulating  spin 1 photon (John & Martin's model, blue, IF their photon followed a helical path when the electron is moving) . My graph starts at 0.5 hbar when v/c=0 and ends at 0.5 hbar  when v/c -> 1.  John & Martin’s graph starts at 0.5 hbar for v/c=0 but ends at 1.0 hbar when v/c ->1 for  the circulating spin 1 photon. I found by a graph maximum calculation for the below yellow graph that the maximum spin calculated from the graph of my model (yellow) is Smax  = 0.625 hbar which occurs at v/c = 0.5 on the horizontal axis. Notice my yellow graph is symmetric and centered at v/c = 0.5  , where the curve maximum is at gamma = 1.1547 (when v/c=0.5) on the last yellow graph.
> 
> So my moving electron model doesn't give spin 1/2 over the whole velocity range (I knew that) but it starts and ends at 1/2 . The difference from my model and constant spin 1/2 over the whole range could either be a limitation of my model or this could actually be the electron spin in this velocity range around v=0.5 c (it’s nearer to spin 1/2 than spin 1 and I don’t know how accurate electron spin measurements are in this range of velocities (around v=0.5c). Most accelerator experiments are done for gamma in the thousands or tens of thousands or more where the electron model's spin (third graph) goes almost exactly to 0.5 hbar at these high gamma values, as shown on my last graph (yellow).
> 
> <Electron model Richard total spin plotted (1:gamma plus cos theta) versus v:c for spin 1:2 photon and spin 1 photon.png>
> 
> 
> Below is the same total spin calculation but plotted versus gamma instead of v/c on the horizontal axis. My yellow graph starts at spin 0.5 hbar at gamma = 1 (v=0) and approaches 0.5 again as gamma becomes large. John and Martin’s starts at 0.5 hbar for gamma = 1 (v=0) but goes to 1.0 hbar as gamma becomes very large. 
> 
> <Electron model Richard total spin plotted (1:gamma^2 plus cos theta)  versus gamma for spin 1:2 photon and spin 1 photon.png>
> 
>> On Jul 23, 2016, at 5:16 PM, Dr Grahame Blackwell <grahame at starweave.com <mailto:grahame at starweave.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Richard (also Chip, John W et al),
>>  
>> Thanks for your response.  I see you say "based on the experimental evidence for this" (i.e. electron spin 1/2 at all speeds/energies).  Are you saying that you know that such evidence exists?  If so, it'd be great to see any references you have for it; if not, we're back to pure supposition, presumably (based on 'accepted wisdom' - which I think we're all agreed is far from being any sort of evidence at all).
>>  
>> I agree with your observation that the spin of an electron formed from a conventional photon tends to 1(+) as its speed tends to c.  I don't yet see this as a problem (unless you have those references as above and they constitute firm proof).  I can't see, though, how your model can maintain spin 1/2 over all speeds of electron motion.  As I see it (based on a velocity triangle for linear and cyclic components that matches the relationship given by the Relativistic Energy-Momentum Relation, which determines the relative directions of momentum components and so also velocity components), the contribution from your spin-1/2 photon's own spin to the electron's spin about its axis of linear motion will be:  v/c x 1/2 = v/(2c) .  The contribution from the linear momentum of the photon in its cyclic motion would thus have to be: 1/2 - v/(2c) consistently, as v varies.  You describe your cyclic-motion spin component (as I understand it) as: 1/(2gamma^2), which doesn't seem to fit the bill.  How do you get those two elements to fit together to neatly give 1/2 in all cases? [NB I've left out the hbar throughout in order to reduce clutter - so I'm talking spin rather than full spin ang. mom. term.]  [As an afterthought: the only other parameter that you may be varying is the speed of that circulating photon; as I see it that must be c to fit in with observations on relativistic electrons?]
>>  
>> Like you, I'd also be very interested to see John W's model of an electron with spin 1/2 at all electron speeds/energies.  There are issues here that I certainly can't see a way round at present.
>>  
>> Best regards to all,
>> Grahame
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: Richard Gauthier <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com>
>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 9:05 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [General] double photon cycle, subjective v objective realities
>>> 
>>> Hello Grahame, Chip, John W and all,
>>> 
>>>    I appreciate your persistence with this question about the calculated spin of electron models at relativistic energies, and also about the evidence for an experimental value of electron spin of 1/2 at high energies. The second requires a knowledgeable expert high energy physics experimenter’s answer, I think, based on the experimental evidence for this. The first needs to be resolved by people like us who don’t necessarily accept the idea of a point-like electron with intrinsic spin 1/2, but who want our electron models to match the experimental evidence about the electron as closely as possible.  I believe that John W said that his latest electron model has spin 1/2 at all energies. I asked him several e-mails back if he knows this about his electron model from a spin calculation with his electron model, or by some symmetry argument. I think we would like to know that this invariant spin 1/2 result for his relativistic electron model comes from a calculation if possible. But I don’t see how John W or anyone else can start with a circling spin 1 photon to get a spin 1/2 resting electron (that part is OK for a double looping 1 Compton wavelength h/mc photon and I think we “double-loopers" are agreed about this), and also also get a spin 1/2 relativistic electron model from the same circulating spin 1 photon, for the reason that we have discussed: more and more of the spin 1 photon’s spin is in the longitudinal direction for a fast moving electron model as the speed of the electron increases towards highly relativistic velocities, so how does this relativistic circulating-spin-1-photon electron model’s spin ever fall much below 1 hbar at highly relativistic velocities?
>>> 
>>>     This is one reason why I think that an electron model has to be composed of a circling spin 1/2 (and charged) photon from the beginning (in the resting electron), so that this spin 1/2 of the photon model will dominate in the electron model at relativistic velocities, while the contribution to the electron model’s spin in the double-looping resting photon (which is 1/2 hbar in the resting electron) drops off (as 1/gamma^2) towards zero at relativistic electron velocities.
>>>  
>> _______________________________________________
>> If you no longer wish to receive communication from the Nature of Light and Particles General Discussion List at richgauthier at gmail.com <mailto:richgauthier at gmail.com>
>> <a href="http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1 <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/options.cgi/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/richgauthier%40gmail.com?unsub=1&unsubconfirm=1>">
>> Click here to unsubscribe
>> </a>
> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.natureoflightandparticles.org/pipermail/general-natureoflightandparticles.org/attachments/20160723/bfb15221/attachment.htm>