[General] Albrecht Instantaneous gravity force
Albrecht Giese
genmail at a-giese.de
Tue Feb 21 05:21:39 PST 2017
Wolf:
some responses to your last mail:
Am 16.02.2017 um 20:09 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:
>
> Albrecht:
>
> if I understand it, the periodic displacement of stars due to earth
> orbital motion is also the steady state displacement causing the 8.5
> min displacement of the Sun in Flanders argument. If I understand his
> argument then the Sun is displaced because the photons come in at an
> angle which is exactly the angle in my diagram between the wave front
> line propagating from the12 nd 6 O'clock positions and the orbit line
> intercecting at 5 and 11 Oclock
>
I guess that you mean here the annual orbital motion of earth around the
sun. True? But in this case I do not understand your reference to the
8.5 min. displacement. Because this is the time which light needs to
pass the distance between sun and earth. What does this have to do which
the orbital annual motion?
If we discuss this orbital motion then we can assume the sun to be at a
fixed position in space. Because the orbital motion of the sun around
the centre of our galaxy is in comparison an almost straight motion so
that we can treat the system of the sun and its planets as an inertial
system.
>
> I was taught that photons are wave packets i.e a carrier wave modified
> by an envelope.And the same localization argument applied to quantum
> waves which ultimately explained Heisenberg's uncertainty.
>
I would agree that this is a usable approximation.
>
> Yes if bullets show aberration and fields do not , then we are back to
> the quantum picture - or perhaps Bohm's pilot wave - bullets guided by
> mysterious quantum waves.
>
Is this the quantum picture? I think that it is a good picture but QM
does not like it as we know. And the pilot wave was an invention of de
Broglie (but maybe Bohm has used it for a further development).
>
> I think we are at the right forum. What are photons anyway?
>
In my view also photons can be described by the Basic Particle Model as
I have presented it in San Diego. Then it is also - like the electron
and other particles - object of the strong force. But in contrast to
the electron the photon has to carry a positive and a negative electric
charge as it is electrically neutral. And maybe two of them as the
photon has twice the spin of a lepton or a quark.
>
> I wrote to Falndern at the Mindspring Email address but no such person
> found. now I see he died in 2009. but he was In 2002 Dr. /Tom van
> Flandern/, a PhD in Astronomy and formerly the Chief of the Celestial
> Mechanics Branch of the Nautical Almanac Office .
>
> What text d you have that derives the field of a moving charge, I can
> probably find it in our library?
>
As said in my previous mail, my favourite book is at present "Special
Relativity" of A.P. French.
Greetings
Albrecht
>
> wolf
>
> Dr. Wolfgang Baer
> Research Director
> Nascent Systems Inc.
> tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
> E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com
> On 2/16/2017 6:32 AM, Albrecht Giese wrote:
>>
>> Wolf,
>>
>> two points about this:
>>
>> 1.) By the normal definition of aberration the top part of the
>> drawing of van Flanders, Fig. 2, is aberration, i.e. the case if the
>> target is moving. If our astronomers look at distant stars then
>> theses stars show a periodic displacement / aberration caused by the
>> periodic motion of the earth.
>>
>> 2.) It becomes more and more obvious to me (and I find it really
>> surprising) that any kinds of "bullets" show aberration in the
>> appropriate situations, but fields (like the electric field and also
>> the gravitational field) do not show aberration. - For electric
>> fields this is said - and derived - in my textbook about relativity.
>>
>> This has an amazing consequence. As photons do show aberration it is
>> obvious that photons are not fields or waves but are bullets. - What
>> do you think?
>>
>> Best
>> Albrecht
>>
>> Am 16.02.2017 um 06:16 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:
>>>
>>> Albrecht:
>>>
>>> "The motion of the Earth is of no influence." on page three of the
>>> Flandern's paper you will find a comparison of the earth vs the sun
>>> movingsituation
>>>
>>> Flandern claims as shown in figure 2 that view from source
>>> stationary or observer stationary makes no difference in one case it
>>> is called aberration in the other time delay, both get the same
>>> angle and the same apparent optic location
>>>
>>> best again
>>>
>>> wolf
>>>
>>> Dr. Wolfgang Baer
>>> Research Director
>>> Nascent Systems Inc.
>>> tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
>>> E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com
>>> On 2/14/2017 1:12 PM, Albrecht Giese wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wolf,
>>>>
>>>> it is in fact not necessary to follow Einstein's version of SRT. I
>>>> for myself follow the version of Hendrik Lorentz as it is based on
>>>> known physical facts, not on fictitious assumptions about
>>>> space-time. However there are relativistic facts which are obvious
>>>> and independent of any formal version of SRT. That is the
>>>> contraction of fields and the dilation of periodic processes. And
>>>> these are for sure. The calculations according to Lienard-Wiechert
>>>> are based on these fact to my knowledge. At present I have started
>>>> to follow this derivation step by step but will need a bit of time.
>>>>
>>>> Do we indeed see the sun in a position which is about 8 minutes
>>>> retarded? From the view of the Earth the Sun can be taken as being
>>>> in a fixed position without making a big mistake. But even if the
>>>> sun would be moving in relation to our planetary system that would
>>>> not matter in this case The point is that the vectors of any
>>>> fields originating at a moving object do not point to (or from) the
>>>> visible position of its source but from the advanced position,
>>>> where the object is when the field is received.
>>>>
>>>> As far as I understand what you write (or van Flanders writes)
>>>> about the US naval data, these date describe the visible position
>>>> of the sun, so the direction from which the photons arrive. That is
>>>> obviously not a field. And if the direction of the gravitational
>>>> field would be towards the retarded position then the orbital speed
>>>> of the Earth would in fact change with time. Which is not the case
>>>> - But independent of this consideration, this case seems
>>>> particularly simple to me. As stated above, from the view of the
>>>> Earth the Sun can be taken as being in a fixed position. With
>>>> respect to this position the Sun has a constant gravitational field
>>>> in all directions. If now the Earth orbits the sun then this steady
>>>> field will reach the Earth as always coming from the centre of the
>>>> sun. The motion of the Earth is of no influence. - The interesting
>>>> case for this problem discussed at other places is the one of a
>>>> double star. If both stars orbit each other then the position of
>>>> one star changes permanently as seen from the other star. In that
>>>> case the direction of the field and the propagation speed of the
>>>> field are of relevance. But also for these cases the relativistic
>>>> calculation seems to show that the fields are pointing towards the
>>>> centre of the orbit following the Lienard-Wiechert calculation of
>>>> potential.
>>>>
>>>> I shall come back here as soon as I am more familiar with this case.
>>>>
>>>> Albrecht
>>>>
>>>> Am 11.02.2017 um 20:30 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:
>>>>>
>>>>> Albrecht:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll admit that I do not follow the consequences of Special
>>>>> Relativity Theory (SRT) as it is worked out in the
>>>>> Lienard-Wiechert potential. And since I identified at least a half
>>>>> dozen derivations of these results in the internet I assume the
>>>>> math is correct. However we have been to the Vigier Conference and
>>>>> seen several presentations criticizing Special Relativity
>>>>>
>>>>> So rather than go through a derivation again, which I do not
>>>>> doubt, I'm trying to make sense of the predicted results. Its
>>>>> kind of like seeing SRT calculations and coming up with the twin
>>>>> paradox. Something is wrong with SRT
>>>>>
>>>>> The VanFlanders paper ( I can send another copy for anyone who
>>>>> needs it) in the paragraph above "3.3 the solar eclipse test"
>>>>> clearly claims that experimental data from the Astronomical
>>>>> Almanac produced by the US naval observatory shows that the earth
>>>>> is attracted to a point 8.5 min. ahead of its optical position.
>>>>> This means the earth is gravitationally attracted to where the sun
>>>>> is /Now/ not where the sun was when light was emitted.
>>>>>
>>>>> The drawing below shows a simple example of how a light emitted
>>>>> from a non-relativistic particle ( 30km/sec) at the upper past
>>>>> position will not hit a parallel traveling lower particle at some
>>>>> distance achieved during the flight time of light and therefore
>>>>> will receive light at an angle pointing to the retarded position.
>>>>> For earth orbit (30Km/sec) which is 10^4 less than the speed of
>>>>> light relativistic effects are 10^-8 , i.e.very very
>>>>> small.compared with Newtonian thinking, but the displacement in
>>>>> 8.5 minutes is 15,300km nearly 3 earth diameters offset which
>>>>> should be measurable.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've just gotten some visitors and need to go, but we are
>>>>> questioning SRT and the assumption that gravity may move at a
>>>>> different speed. so just citing more SRT derivations is not
>>>>> convincing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why is My diagram and "Eddington" and Flanders wrong? Is Flanders
>>>>> lying about his Ephemeris data and its experimental content?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or are we just so brow beaten by SRT that whatever derivations we
>>>>> develop from it must be right?
>>>>>
>>>>> Got to go
>>>>>
>>>>> Wolf
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Wolfgang Baerecht
>>>>> Research Director
>>>>> Nascent Systems Inc.
>>>>> tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
>>>>> E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com
>>>>> On 2/10/2017 12:33 PM, Albrecht Giese wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Wolf, and hi Chip and All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it is correct that the solution is a relativistic calculation. In
>>>>>> the figure below, the lower circuit "now" gets the field from the
>>>>>> direction of the higher (small) circuit "now". Not so easily
>>>>>> understandable by visualisation but theoretically confirmed. It
>>>>>> has to do with relativistic contraction (of space / fields) and
>>>>>> with relativistic time synchronization.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I look into Jackson, to the mentioned p486 and p487, then eq.
>>>>>> (14.17) describes (unfortunately only) the transverse field. But
>>>>>> if in this equation the product (kappa*R) is replace by the value
>>>>>> given in (14.16) then the result does not depend on the retarded
>>>>>> position P'. - It would be better to have here the field
>>>>>> component for the longitudinal direction. But even this is an
>>>>>> indication that the retarded position has no effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding the two charges in my model I assume that both charges
>>>>>> are getting the field of the respective other charge by similar
>>>>>> considerations. If we assume that charges permanently emit
>>>>>> exchange particles for the corresponding field following QM in
>>>>>> this respect, then there are exchange particles leaving the one
>>>>>> charge and reaching the other one. So there is a field (a binding
>>>>>> field) at the locations of both charges. - But this statement is
>>>>>> of course not a precise one and I am going to present a detailed
>>>>>> calculation taking all this into account mathematically.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And by the way with respect to gravity: This discussion which we
>>>>>> have started here has kept the physicists busy during the entire
>>>>>> 19th century (which can be found at Wikipedia) The discussion
>>>>>> used the arguments of Van Flanders, Wolf, and also myself (in the
>>>>>> beginning) about the influence of retardation to the perspective
>>>>>> of the gravitational force; but this discussion ended when
>>>>>> Special Relativity was introduced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best
>>>>>> Albrecht
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 09.02.2017 um 21:32 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I know about retarded potentials exactly corroborates my point
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The potential is retarded yes but go backwards from the 4Oklock
>>>>>>> location of the advancing lower particle you will see the force
>>>>>>> vector no longer goes through the orbit center. It comes from
>>>>>>> the retarded position of the source, which was at 12Oclock.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does retarded potential not mean one must calculate the
>>>>>>> potential from the point sources were in the past ? I'm reading
>>>>>>> Jackson p468 right now
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its a typical formula first section with no explanation of what
>>>>>>> they mean, but it is clear that my diagram is non relativistic
>>>>>>> and that may be my error.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However a very slow moving particle very far away moving
>>>>>>> transversely would have almost no relativistic correction and
>>>>>>> still be seen. So in this case would the observer ( big circle)
>>>>>>> not see the source at the retarded past position. And if that is
>>>>>>> the case would he not "see" the force vector from the retarded
>>>>>>> past position?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that is exactly Flanders Argument regarding the motion of
>>>>>>> the sun relative to an observer on the earth. The EM force
>>>>>>> vector points to the retarded position not the current position.
>>>>>>> But gravity orbits are calculated as though the force vector
>>>>>>> points to the actual Now position.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my diagram the past upper particle is at 12Oclock and when
>>>>>>> the Light(EM INFLUENCE) gets to the lower particle at 4 Oclock
>>>>>>> it sees the upper particle at its past 12O'clock position. Thus
>>>>>>> the force vector is no longer radially symmetric but has a
>>>>>>> tangential component.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How your dual orbiting charge model traveling at "c" works out I
>>>>>>> do not know. But if the E filed is squeezed in the velocity
>>>>>>> direction then
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> then the two particles would never influence each other since
>>>>>>> the flat plane of E fileds would rotate and always miss the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> other particle. So what creates the field holding the particles
>>>>>>> in orbit?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wolf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dr. Wolfgang Baer
>>>>>>> Research Director
>>>>>>> Nascent Systems Inc.
>>>>>>> tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
>>>>>>> E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com
>>>>>>> On 2/8/2017 12:34 PM, Albrecht Giese wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, it is not the point that 'Albrecht has some other ideas'.
>>>>>>>> But it is the situation solved by the treatment of "retarded
>>>>>>>> potential" as I have already written. This is classical Main
>>>>>>>> Stream physics.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can only repeat to refer to textbooks about retarded
>>>>>>>> potential which is besides my favourite French the well known
>>>>>>>> Landau&Lifschitz about the so called Lienard-Wiechert potential
>>>>>>>> (and I think also in Jackson). From that calculation follows
>>>>>>>> that the forces arrive in a radial direction at the particles /
>>>>>>>> charges and so there is no tangential component.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Van Flanders has obviously overlooked this fact which is - to
>>>>>>>> say it again - standard classical physics.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best, Albrecht
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Am 08.02.2017 um 20:02 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree one must integrate the effect, but since the
>>>>>>>>> instantaneous snapshot shown below generate a small but not
>>>>>>>>> zero tangential force along the trajectory if you rotate the
>>>>>>>>> entire diagram by an infinitesimal angle the same force will
>>>>>>>>> move around the cycle in the same direction , so there would
>>>>>>>>> be no cancellation but an accumulation of the tangential force
>>>>>>>>> build up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I believe the only way to avoid the problem is to have an
>>>>>>>>> attractive force at the center so only radial force fields are
>>>>>>>>> encountered, or have infinite propagation speed which is what
>>>>>>>>> TOm Vam Flandern's paper tried to prove.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Albrecht has some other ideas
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best, wolf
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dr. Wolfgang Baer
>>>>>>>>> Research Director
>>>>>>>>> Nascent Systems Inc.
>>>>>>>>> tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
>>>>>>>>> E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com
>>>>>>>>> On 2/5/2017 5:26 PM, af.kracklauer at web.de wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hey Wolf:
>>>>>>>>>> The actual force at any reception point is not just that from
>>>>>>>>>> one position of the sending charge, but an integral over all
>>>>>>>>>> positions of the sending charge intersecting the past light
>>>>>>>>>> cone of the sender. I don't know what the answer is and I'm
>>>>>>>>>> too tired at the moment to do the math. Looks too like it
>>>>>>>>>> might be very involved! Cone intersecting a spiral, etc.
>>>>>>>>>> 3/4-D, lots of unknown integrals....
>>>>>>>>>> Also, a positron-electron pair should be essentiall invisible
>>>>>>>>>> as it is charge nutral, i.e., won't interact with our only
>>>>>>>>>> agent of "seeing." Except ...??
>>>>>>>>>> ---Al
>>>>>>>>>> *Gesendet:* Sonntag, 05. Februar 2017 um 21:47 Uhr
>>>>>>>>>> *Von:* "Wolfgang Baer" <wolf at nascentinc.com>
>>>>>>>>>> *An:* general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
>>>>>>>>>> *Betreff:* Re: [General] Albrecht Instantaneous gravity force
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Albrecht:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I do not see how your example with electric forces applies to
>>>>>>>>>> the gravitational example.in van Flanders 1998 paper , or for
>>>>>>>>>> that matter to your model of an elementary particle. Has
>>>>>>>>>> anyone ever seen positron electron orbiting each other?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Consider two particles instantly at 10 and 6 Oclock send out
>>>>>>>>>> a force that propagates radially from their instantaneous
>>>>>>>>>> position
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A time of flight delay caused by field propagating
>>>>>>>>>> spherically to reach the other particle after it has moved
>>>>>>>>>> around the orbit.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This means there is an angle between the purely radial from
>>>>>>>>>> orbit center direction by an angleΘ
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This angle will give a force vector along the orbit path
>>>>>>>>>> would this not change the momentum??
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The only way I know Bohr atom works is because the proton is
>>>>>>>>>> at the center of the electron orbit so no matter where the
>>>>>>>>>> electron moves around the orbit it will experience a radial
>>>>>>>>>> only force.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I believe van Flanders 1998 paper claims that ephemerus data
>>>>>>>>>> was calculated assuming instantaneous gravity force
>>>>>>>>>> projection and which seem to match visual position when
>>>>>>>>>> corrected for the time delay between sources and observer.
>>>>>>>>>> And if the time delay for gravity were introduced it would
>>>>>>>>>> show up in orbit corrections not actually seen. Is he
>>>>>>>>>> making a mistake?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> best,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wolf
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Wolfgang Baer
>>>>>>>>>> Research Director
>>>>>>>>>> Nascent Systems Inc.
>>>>>>>>>> tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
>>>>>>>>>> E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/31/2017 1:35 PM, Albrecht Giese wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wolf,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> regarding the /speed of gravitational influence/:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have looked into the mentioned paper of Van Flanders in
>>>>>>>>>> 1998 and particularly his arguments why gravitational
>>>>>>>>>> influences must propagate instantly, not at the speed of
>>>>>>>>>> light. I do not follow his arguments because he has
>>>>>>>>>> overlooked an important point.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> His argument (also that one cited from Eddington) is: If
>>>>>>>>>> the speed of gravitational propagation is limited (e.g.
>>>>>>>>>> to c) then in the case of two celestial bodies each body
>>>>>>>>>> would not see the other one at its actual position but
>>>>>>>>>> at a past position. This would destroy the conservation
>>>>>>>>>> of momentum. - However, this is not the case.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One simple example to see that this argument cannot be
>>>>>>>>>> true. We can imagine a set up of two /massive /bodies
>>>>>>>>>> which orbit each other and which are bound to each other
>>>>>>>>>> by an electrical force; this is easily possible by
>>>>>>>>>> putting an appropriate electrical charge of different
>>>>>>>>>> sign onto both bodies. Also the electrical force is, as
>>>>>>>>>> we know, restricted to the speed of light. But it is very
>>>>>>>>>> clear that this set up would keep the momentum of both
>>>>>>>>>> bodies and would steadily move in a stable way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How does this work? The phenomenon is the so called
>>>>>>>>>> "retarded potential". It has the effect that, even though
>>>>>>>>>> both charges are seen at a past position by the other
>>>>>>>>>> charge, the force vector points to the /actual /position
>>>>>>>>>> of the other one.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If we now assume that gravity is a force (independent of
>>>>>>>>>> what Einstein talks about curvature of space), then the
>>>>>>>>>> same rules of retarded potential apply to gravity. And so
>>>>>>>>>> there is no change of momentum even though the effect of
>>>>>>>>>> gravity is limited to the speed of light.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Does this provide some clarification?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Albrecht
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Am 22.01.2017 um 20:52 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Al:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think the "where is the evidence" argument is no
>>>>>>>>>> longer powerful because so many things happening in
>>>>>>>>>> physics have little or even contradictory evidence.
>>>>>>>>>> I'm just reading Van Flanders 1998 "the speed of
>>>>>>>>>> gravity" Physics Letters A250 1-11 which makes a good
>>>>>>>>>> case for gravity influences influences moving
>>>>>>>>>> instantly - not at the speed of light.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However I like your idea of only interactions - in
>>>>>>>>>> fact I'm developing a theory along those lines by
>>>>>>>>>> modeling nothing as an empty page and requiring
>>>>>>>>>> material formatting of the page as an explicit field
>>>>>>>>>> of space cells. This still allows fields as a
>>>>>>>>>> shortcut for calculating interactions from multiple
>>>>>>>>>> distant cells, but nothing remains nothing, if there
>>>>>>>>>> are no cells to host interactions i.e. sources and
>>>>>>>>>> sinks, then there is no influence propagating. It
>>>>>>>>>> takes some material to propagate influences.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I would be very curious to read how your "one way
>>>>>>>>>> out" formulates this problem.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One of my hang ups is that any visualization of
>>>>>>>>>> material basis for space implies a kind of permanent
>>>>>>>>>> structural relationship between sources and sinks -
>>>>>>>>>> but objects do seem to move fairly fluidly from place
>>>>>>>>>> to place. Do sources and sinks move in your vision,
>>>>>>>>>> If so what do they move in?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> best,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wolf
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Wolfgang Baer
>>>>>>>>>> Research Director
>>>>>>>>>> Nascent Systems Inc.
>>>>>>>>>> tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
>>>>>>>>>> E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/21/2017 10:20 PM, af.kracklauer at web.de wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Challenge for proponents of fields (all kinds:
>>>>>>>>>> E&M, Gravity, Tension, whatever): If the
>>>>>>>>>> universe is finite, then the field sources on the
>>>>>>>>>> outer rind will be pumping field energy into the
>>>>>>>>>> void, the material universe would be cooling
>>>>>>>>>> down, etc. So, where is the evidence for such?
>>>>>>>>>> If the universe is finite but topologically
>>>>>>>>>> closed, then it will have certain "Betti numbers"
>>>>>>>>>> for various forms which will be closed, (see:
>>>>>>>>>> algebraic topology texts), again there should be
>>>>>>>>>> some observable consequence from the these closed
>>>>>>>>>> forms. So (again) where's the evidence? Granted,
>>>>>>>>>> current tech may not be up to the task; but that
>>>>>>>>>> would imply that field theories have to be
>>>>>>>>>> reduced in status to be virtually religion.
>>>>>>>>>> One way out: there are no fields, but
>>>>>>>>>> interactions between sources and sinks. Where one
>>>>>>>>>> is missing, there's nothing! In particular
>>>>>>>>>> nothing emminating from sources without regard
>>>>>>>>>> for target-like sinks. Advantage: the math works
>>>>>>>>>> out without internal contradictions
>>>>>>>>>> (divergencies, etc.). Another advantage: from
>>>>>>>>>> this viewpoint, there are no waves, and
>>>>>>>>>> associated divergencies. They are just cocek the
>>>>>>>>>> ptual Fourier components for the interactions.
>>>>>>>>>> Useful, but strictly hypothetical.
>>>>>>>>>> For what it's worth, Al
>>>>>>>>>> *Gesendet:* Sonntag, 22. Januar 2017 um 04:19 Uhr
>>>>>>>>>> *Von:* "Roychoudhuri, Chandra"
>>>>>>>>>> <chandra.roychoudhuri at uconn.edu>
>>>>>>>>>> *An:* "Nature of Light and Particles - General
>>>>>>>>>> Discussion"
>>>>>>>>>> <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
>>>>>>>>>> *Betreff:* Re: [General] light and particles group
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John M.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am not the right person to give you decisive
>>>>>>>>>> answers as I have not followed the math relevant
>>>>>>>>>> to the origin of Gravitational Wave (GW) and its
>>>>>>>>>> spontaneous propagation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> First, you can find out the current state
>>>>>>>>>> of technology in the measuring precision of (i)
>>>>>>>>>> fringe fraction, F (i.e., 180-degree/F) vs. (i)
>>>>>>>>>> polarization angle fraction F (90-degree/F). As I
>>>>>>>>>> recall, much better than thousandth of a
>>>>>>>>>> fringe-shift is now measurable. I do not know
>>>>>>>>>> what is the current best value of F for
>>>>>>>>>> polarization measurement. You can look up
>>>>>>>>>> Gravitational Faraday Effect also. I did “poke my
>>>>>>>>>> nose” there in the past; but could not find
>>>>>>>>>> anything measurable.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Second, more fundamental physics. All
>>>>>>>>>> material based waves and light waves require a
>>>>>>>>>> continuous tension field that steadily gets
>>>>>>>>>> pushed away from the original site of
>>>>>>>>>> perturbation induced on the field; provided the
>>>>>>>>>> perturbation does not exceed the restoration
>>>>>>>>>> linearity condition (“Young’s Modulus”, or
>>>>>>>>>> equivalent). For, stretched material string, the
>>>>>>>>>> mechanical tension is T and the restoration force
>>>>>>>>>> is the “inertial mass” “Sigma” per unit length;
>>>>>>>>>> then string-wave v-squared =T/Sigma. For light,
>>>>>>>>>> c-squared = Epsilon-inverse/Mu. Epsilon-inverse
>>>>>>>>>> is the electric tension and Mu is the magnetic
>>>>>>>>>> restoration force. These analogies are explained
>>>>>>>>>> in some of my papers; I have sent earlier.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Now my very basic question for the experts
>>>>>>>>>> in GW: */How do you define the GW-tension
>>>>>>>>>> field?/* All spontaneously propagating waves
>>>>>>>>>> require a steady and continuous tension field in
>>>>>>>>>> which a suitable perturbation triggers the
>>>>>>>>>> original wave. What is the velocity of GW and
>>>>>>>>>> what are the corresponding tension and
>>>>>>>>>> restoration parameters? If you say, it is the
>>>>>>>>>> same velocity as “c”, for the EM wave; then */we
>>>>>>>>>> have some serious confusion to resolve/*. Are the
>>>>>>>>>> tension and restoration parameters same as those
>>>>>>>>>> for EM waves? Then, why should we call it GW;
>>>>>>>>>> instead of pulsed EM waves? Or, */are the two
>>>>>>>>>> parameters really physically different for
>>>>>>>>>> GW/*(should be); but GW-velocity number just
>>>>>>>>>> happens to coincide with “c”?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I took Einstein’s explanation for the origin
>>>>>>>>>> of Gravity as the “Curvature of Space” literally,
>>>>>>>>>> as the Potential Gradient generated around any
>>>>>>>>>> assembly of Baryonic Particles. So, a pair of
>>>>>>>>>> rotating binary stars will generate a
>>>>>>>>>> periodically oscillating potential gradient.
>>>>>>>>>> Whatever the value of the effective gravity of a
>>>>>>>>>> “stationary” binary star around earth is; it
>>>>>>>>>> would be oscillating slightly when the
>>>>>>>>>> “stationary” binary stars start rotating around
>>>>>>>>>> themselves. But, this is not Gravity Wave to me.
>>>>>>>>>> It is a phenomenon of “locally” changing value of
>>>>>>>>>> the “curvature of space”; not a passing by wave.
>>>>>>>>>> Imagine the typical “trampoline demo” for
>>>>>>>>>> Einsteinian gravity with a heavy iron ball at the
>>>>>>>>>> depressed center. If you periodically
>>>>>>>>>> magnetically attract the iron ball to effectively
>>>>>>>>>> reduce the trampoline curvature; we are not
>>>>>>>>>> generating propagating GW; we are periodically
>>>>>>>>>> changing the local “curvature”!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> These comments should give you some
>>>>>>>>>> pragmatic “food for thought”!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chandra.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *From:*General
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
>>>>>>>>>> *On Behalf Of *John Macken
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 21, 2017 4:14 PM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:* 'Nature of Light and Particles - General
>>>>>>>>>> Discussion'
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [General] light and particles group
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chandra,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have one quick question for you and the group
>>>>>>>>>> to consider. You mention that Maxwell connected
>>>>>>>>>> the speed of light to the properties of space
>>>>>>>>>> (epsilon and mu). To explain my question, I first
>>>>>>>>>> have to give some background which is
>>>>>>>>>> accomplished by quoting a short section of the
>>>>>>>>>> previously attached paper.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> “Gravitational waves (GWs) propagate in the
>>>>>>>>>> medium of spacetime. They are transverse
>>>>>>>>>> quadrupole waves which slightly distort the
>>>>>>>>>> “fabric of space”. For example, a GW propagating
>>>>>>>>>> in the “Z” direction would cause a sphere made
>>>>>>>>>> from baryonic matter such as metal to become an
>>>>>>>>>> oscillating ellipsoid. When the sphere expands in
>>>>>>>>>> the X direction it contracts in the Y direction
>>>>>>>>>> and vice versa. The GW produces: 1) no change in
>>>>>>>>>> the total volume of the oscillating sphere 2) no
>>>>>>>>>> change in the rate of time, 3) no displacement of
>>>>>>>>>> the center of mass of the oscillating sphere.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Point #3 addresses an important point. If there
>>>>>>>>>> are two isolated masses such as two LIGO
>>>>>>>>>> interferometer mirrors suspended by wires [17],
>>>>>>>>>> the passage of a GW does not move the mirror’s
>>>>>>>>>> center of mass. Instead of the mirrors
>>>>>>>>>> physically moving, the GW changes the properties
>>>>>>>>>> of spacetime producing a redshift and a blue
>>>>>>>>>> shift on LIGO’s laser beams. This difference in
>>>>>>>>>> wavelength is detected by the interferometer as a
>>>>>>>>>> fringe shift…”
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> With this introduction, the questions are:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1. Should a GW effect the permeability and
>>>>>>>>>> permittivity of free space?
>>>>>>>>>> 2. Should the two orthogonal polarizations of a
>>>>>>>>>> GW produce opposite effects on the
>>>>>>>>>> permeability and permittivity of free space?
>>>>>>>>>> 3. Since epsilon and mu determine the speed of
>>>>>>>>>> light, should a GW produce a different effect
>>>>>>>>>> on the two orthogonal polarizations of light?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the answer to question #3 is yes, then this
>>>>>>>>>> suggests that it should be possible to detect GWs
>>>>>>>>>> by monitoring the polarization of a laser beam.
>>>>>>>>>> It is vastly simpler to detect a slight
>>>>>>>>>> difference in the polarization of a single beam
>>>>>>>>>> of light than it is to detect the same optical
>>>>>>>>>> shift between two arms of an interferometer. The
>>>>>>>>>> interferometer encounters vibration noise to a
>>>>>>>>>> much greater degree than is encountered in the
>>>>>>>>>> polarization of a single laser beam. Also,
>>>>>>>>>> multiple laser beams could identify the direction
>>>>>>>>>> of the GW much better than an interferometer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps this is off the subject of the discussion
>>>>>>>>>> group. But it is an example of a subject which
>>>>>>>>>> might be low hanging fruit that could make a
>>>>>>>>>> historic contribution to physics. In the past I
>>>>>>>>>> have made the suggestion that GWs produce a
>>>>>>>>>> polarization effect, but this suggestion is
>>>>>>>>>> lacking additional insight and analysis to be
>>>>>>>>>> taken seriously. Is there anyone in this group
>>>>>>>>>> with the expertise to contribute to this study?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John M.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *From:*General
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
>>>>>>>>>> *On Behalf Of *Roychoudhuri, Chandra
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 21, 2017 11:56 AM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:* Nature of Light and Particles - General
>>>>>>>>>> Discussion
>>>>>>>>>> <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [General] light and particles group
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> “Gravitational waves indicate vacuum energy
>>>>>>>>>> exists”, paper by John Macken
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John M.: Thanks for attaching your paper. */The
>>>>>>>>>> title clearly indicates that we really are in
>>>>>>>>>> basic agreement. The cosmic space has physical
>>>>>>>>>> properties./* I have expressed my views a bit
>>>>>>>>>> differently, that the cosmic space is a
>>>>>>>>>> */stationary /*Complex Tension Filed (CTF),
>>>>>>>>>> */holding 100% of the cosmic energy/* in the
>>>>>>>>>> attached papers and in my book, “Causal Physics”.
>>>>>>>>>> */If the so-called vacuous cosmic space and the
>>>>>>>>>> CTF were not inseparable, the velocity of light
>>>>>>>>>> would have been different through different
>>>>>>>>>> regions of the cosmic space/*!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just do not like to continue to use the
>>>>>>>>>> word “vacuum” because, in the English language,
>>>>>>>>>> it has acquired a very different meaning
>>>>>>>>>> (“nothing”) for absolute majority of people over
>>>>>>>>>> many centuries. It is better not to confuse
>>>>>>>>>> common people by asserting new meanings on very
>>>>>>>>>> old and very well established words.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Further, in your support, the quantitative
>>>>>>>>>> values of at least two physical properties,
>>>>>>>>>> Epsilon & Mu, of the comic space have already
>>>>>>>>>> presented as quantified properties by Maxwell
>>>>>>>>>> around 1867 through his wave equation. Recall
>>>>>>>>>> (c-squared)=(1/Epsilon.Mu). These properties of
>>>>>>>>>> the cosmic space were already quantified before
>>>>>>>>>> Maxwell by the early developers of electrostatics
>>>>>>>>>> and magneto statics.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I assume that you are suggesting us that we
>>>>>>>>>> need to postulate and quantify other physical
>>>>>>>>>> properties possessed by this cosmic space
>>>>>>>>>> (*/Maxwellian or Faraday Tension Field/*?), so
>>>>>>>>>> that the “emergent dynamic particles” out of this
>>>>>>>>>> cosmic space would display all the properties we
>>>>>>>>>> have already been measuring for well over a century.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, I disagree, as of now, that cosmic
>>>>>>>>>> space is “space-time” four dimensional. Because,
>>>>>>>>>> the “running time” is not a measurable physical
>>>>>>>>>> parameter of any physical entity that we know of
>>>>>>>>>> in this universe. So, I assert that the “running
>>>>>>>>>> time” cannot be altered by any physical process.
>>>>>>>>>> */Humans have smartly derived the concept of
>>>>>>>>>> “running time” using various kinds of harmonic
>>>>>>>>>> oscillators and/or periodic motions./* We can
>>>>>>>>>> alter the frequency of a physical oscillator by
>>>>>>>>>> changing its physical environment. Of course,
>>>>>>>>>> this is my personal perception, */not supported
>>>>>>>>>> by the entire group/*. But, that is precisely the
>>>>>>>>>> purpose of this free and honest discussions so we
>>>>>>>>>> can learn from each other. As my understanding
>>>>>>>>>> evolves; I might change back my mind and accept
>>>>>>>>>> space as four- or even thirteen-dimensional.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chandra.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *From:*General
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
>>>>>>>>>> *On Behalf Of *John Macken
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 21, 2017 1:37 PM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:* 'Nature of Light and Particles - General
>>>>>>>>>> Discussion'; 'Andrew Worsley'
>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* 'M.A.'
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [General] light and particles group
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear Chandra and All,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You have said “We definitely have advanced our
>>>>>>>>>> */collective understanding/* that */space is not
>>>>>>>>>> empty and the particles are some form of emergent
>>>>>>>>>> properties of this same universal cosmic
>>>>>>>>>> field./*” The idea that space is not an empty
>>>>>>>>>> void has not been quantified in any model of
>>>>>>>>>> spacetime proposed by members of the group.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have concentrated in defining and quantifying
>>>>>>>>>> the properties of the vacuum and the results are
>>>>>>>>>> presented in the attached paper. This paper
>>>>>>>>>> analyzes the properties of spacetime encountered
>>>>>>>>>> by gravitational waves. The conclusion is that
>>>>>>>>>> spacetime is a sea of Planck length vacuum
>>>>>>>>>> fluctuations that oscillate at Planck frequency.
>>>>>>>>>> This model can be quantified, analyzed and
>>>>>>>>>> tested. It is shown that this model gives the
>>>>>>>>>> correct energy for virtual particle formation.
>>>>>>>>>> It also gives the correct energy density for
>>>>>>>>>> black holes, the correct zero point energy
>>>>>>>>>> density of the universe (about 10^113 J/m^3 ) and
>>>>>>>>>> generates the Friedmann equation for the critical
>>>>>>>>>> density of the universe (about 10^-26 kg/m^3 =
>>>>>>>>>> 10^-9 J/m^3 ).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The reason for mentioning this to a group
>>>>>>>>>> interested in the structure of electrons,
>>>>>>>>>> photons and electric fields is that the
>>>>>>>>>> quantifiable properties of spacetime must be
>>>>>>>>>> incorporated into any particle or field model.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John M.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *From:*General
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:general-bounces+john=macken.com at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org]
>>>>>>>>>> *On Behalf Of *Roychoudhuri, Chandra
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 21, 2017 8:45 AM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:* Andrew Worsley <worsley333 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:worsley333 at gmail.com>>; Light &
>>>>>>>>>> particles. Web discussion
>>>>>>>>>> <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* M.A. <ambroselli at phys.uconn.edu
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:ambroselli at phys.uconn.edu>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [General] light and particles group
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear Andrew Worsely:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is a platform for ethical, serious and
>>>>>>>>>> honest discussions on scientific issues that the
>>>>>>>>>> prevailing mainstream platforms have been
>>>>>>>>>> shunning. We definitely do not want to sow
>>>>>>>>>> unsubstantiated distrust within this group.
>>>>>>>>>> */This not a political forum where sophisticated
>>>>>>>>>> deceptions are highly prized; which has been
>>>>>>>>>> intellectualized as “post-truth”!/* This is not a
>>>>>>>>>> “post-truth” forum.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, please, */help us/*by getting help from
>>>>>>>>>> computer professionals before repeating any
>>>>>>>>>> further unsubstantiated accusations.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you can definitively identify anybody
>>>>>>>>>> within our group carrying out unethical and
>>>>>>>>>> destructive activities; obviously, we would bar
>>>>>>>>>> such persons from this group discussion.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chandra.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear All Participants:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Please be vigilant in maintaining the essential
>>>>>>>>>> ethics behind this discussion forum – honestly
>>>>>>>>>> accept or reject others’ opinions; preferably,
>>>>>>>>>> */build upon them. This is the main objective of
>>>>>>>>>> this forum as this would advance real progress in
>>>>>>>>>> physics out of the currently stagnant culture/*.
>>>>>>>>>> While we have not come to realize any
>>>>>>>>>> broadly-acceptable major break-through out of
>>>>>>>>>> this forum; we definitely have advanced our
>>>>>>>>>> */collective understanding/* that */space is not
>>>>>>>>>> empty and the particles are some form of emergent
>>>>>>>>>> properties of this same universal cosmic field./*
>>>>>>>>>> This, in itself, is significant; because the
>>>>>>>>>> approach of this group to particle physics is
>>>>>>>>>> significantly different from the mainstream. I
>>>>>>>>>> definitely see a better future for physics out of
>>>>>>>>>> this thinking: Space is a real physical field and
>>>>>>>>>> observables are manifestation (different forms of
>>>>>>>>>> excited states) of this field.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Most of you are aware that our SPIE
>>>>>>>>>> conference series, which was continuing since
>>>>>>>>>> 2005, has been abruptly shut down without serious
>>>>>>>>>> valid justifications (complains from
>>>>>>>>>> “knowledgeable people” that “bad apples” have
>>>>>>>>>> joined in). We certainly do not want something
>>>>>>>>>> similar happen to this web discussion forum due
>>>>>>>>>> to internal dissentions and internal unethical
>>>>>>>>>> behavior.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Many thanks for your vigilance and support.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chandra.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *From:*Andrew Worsley [mailto:worsley333 at gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 21, 2017 4:49 AM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:* John Duffield
>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* Roychoudhuri, Chandra; ANDREW WORSLEY
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Andrew Worsley, light and
>>>>>>>>>> particles group
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Could be a coincidence, but some damn troll from
>>>>>>>>>> the discussion group (called Vladimir) has
>>>>>>>>>> screwed up my email which I have had problem free
>>>>>>>>>> for the last 20 years- and my computer is now
>>>>>>>>>> going suspiciously slow.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 7:44 PM, John Duffield
>>>>>>>>>> <johnduffield at btconnect.com
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:johnduffield at btconnect.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chandra:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Please can you add Andrew Worsley to the nature
>>>>>>>>>> of light and particles group. I’ve met him
>>>>>>>>>> personally, and think he has a valuable
>>>>>>>>>> contribution to make.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Apologies if you’ve already done this, but Andrew
>>>>>>>>>> tells me he’s received a /blocked by moderator/
>>>>>>>>>> message.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John Duffield
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 7 Gleneagles Avenue
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Poole
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> BH14 9LJ
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> UK
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *From:* John Duffield
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:johnduffield at btconnect.com
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:johnduffield at btconnect.com>]
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* 09 January 2017 08:34
>>>>>>>>>> *To:* 'Roychoudhuri, Chandra'
>>>>>>>>>> <chandra.roychoudhuri at uconn.edu
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:chandra.roychoudhuri at uconn.edu>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* 'ANDREW WORSLEY'
>>>>>>>>>> <member at aworsley.fsnet.co.uk
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:member at aworsley.fsnet.co.uk>>; 'John
>>>>>>>>>> Williamson' <John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:John.Williamson at glasgow.ac.uk>>; 'Martin
>>>>>>>>>> Van Der Mark' <martinvandermark1 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:martinvandermark1 at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Andrew Worsley, light and particles group
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Chandra:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Please can you add Andrew Worsley
>>>>>>>>>> (worsley333 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:worsley333 at gmail.com>) to the nature of
>>>>>>>>>> light and particles group. I’ve met him
>>>>>>>>>> personally, and think he has a valuable
>>>>>>>>>> contribution to make. He has described the
>>>>>>>>>> electron as being what you might call a quantum
>>>>>>>>>> harmonic structure. The electron in an orbital is
>>>>>>>>>> described by spherical harmonics, the electron
>>>>>>>>>> itself might be described by spherical (or
>>>>>>>>>> toroidal) harmonics.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> JohnD
>>>>>>>>>>
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