[General] Fw: STR twin Paradox

Sat Jun 3 12:01:49 PDT 2017

Hi Grahame,

fully agreement that Einstein's relativity is a working theory but does 
not have any causal explanation. This has to do with the general 
attitude of Einstein with respect to science when he developed 
relativity. But before Einstein, Hendrik Lorentz had already started to 
work on these problems, and his approach does in fact have causal 
physical explanations.

Shortly after the Michelson-Morley experiment Oliver Heaviside presented 
a calculation (1888), deduced from Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism, 
that an electrical field necessarily contracts at motion. Fitzgerald 
concluded that if fields contract also objects will contract at motion. 
If this happens also the apparatus of the MM experiment would contract 
at motion. And if it contracts, so the conclusion of Lorentz, the 
null-result of the experiment is fully explained even if an ether should 
exist.

Next step is dilation. It was (to my knowledge) already suspected by 
Lorentz and it was later found by Schrödinger (1930) that inside 
elementary particles there is a permanent motion with c, the speed of 
light. If this is assumed it follows geometrically that any elementary 
particle acts like a light clock and its internal motion and so its 
frequency is reduced in the way described by the Lorentz transformation. 
The reduction of the internal frequency propagates to all cases of 
motion in physics.

This is special relativity. But the considerations of Lorentz can be 
also extended to general relativity, and the result is a mathematical 
model which fully conforms to the one of Einstein but is also based on 
physical explanations.

Another point in this discussion: Acceleration *does not play any role 
*in relativity, neither in SRT nor in GRT. The reference to acceleration 
in case of e.g. the twin paradox comes from the (indirect) fact that in 
case of an acceleration of one party / one twin this one will leave his 
inertial frame. So the Lorentz transformation does not apply any longer. 
But, not to confuse it here, an acceleration does not give any 
quantitative contribution to the processes treated by SRT and GRT.

Another comment to the Lorentzian interpretation of relativity: 
Following Lorentz makes relativity much better understandable than the 
one of Einstein, and it avoids all paradoxes which I know. This applies 
particularly to GRT which becomes so simple that it can be treated at 
school, whereas the Einsteinian is too complicated even for most 
students of physics.

Albrecht

Am 03.06.2017 um 19:43 schrieb Dr Grahame Blackwell:
> Hi Wolf, Albrecht, John W et al.,
> I want to express complete agreement with John W on the role of 
> accel'n/grav'n in resolving any apparent paradox in the twins saga.
> I must first, though, draw attention to what appears to be an 
> elementary error in Wolf's analysis (unless I've totally misunderstood 
> you, Wolf - I can't see how this would be the case).
> Wolf, you propose (quite reasonably) that each twin is initially 
> moving away from the other at speed 'v'.  You then propose a variation 
> in each twin's clock as perceived by the other, delta-t'. However your 
> expression for that delta-t' shows the other twin's clock progressing 
> FASTER than that of the observer-twin (13 months instead of 12 months) 
> - whereas of course the whole point of SRT is that the moving clock 
> progresses SLOWER than that of the static observer.  This is due to a 
> common fallacy, of applying the time-dilation factor, which gives the 
> extended duration of each second, say, in the moving frame as observed 
> from the static frame (hence the phrase 'time-dilation'), to the 
> apparent time-passed in that moving frame.  This makes the ratio of 
> observed/observer clock-time the inverse of what it should be 
> according to SRT.  The perceived elapsed time in the moving frame 
> should be observer time multiplied by the INVERSE of the Lorentz Factor.
> This doesn't totally destroy your argument (though it does render it 
> rather less plausible), since you are implying that on re-meeting the 
> apparent accumulated difference will not be shown on either clock - as 
> of course it couldn't be.  However, as John W points out, any apparent 
> difference will be precisely wiped out by acceleration considerations: 
> SRT is 100% internally self-consistent, it cannot be faulted on ANY 
> application of its assertions with respect to time.
> However, the fact that it's internally self-consistent doesn't make it 
> RIGHT. It's not difficult to envisage a set of mathematical rules - 
> for instance, relating to trajectories - that give totally 
> self-consistent results but don't accord with practical observations.
> Here's where it gets interesting.  Because of course results of 
> calculations in SRT DO fit with practical observations, and have done 
> so for over a century.  The question then arises as to why this should 
> be so - since, unlike pretty well every other branch of physics, no 
> causal explanation has been found (or even sought?) for effects in 
> spacetime as given by SRT.  It's been tacitly accepted by the 
> mainstream physics community as "That's just how it is".  This is a 
> statement of belief, not of science - the prime directive of science 
> is to ask "Why?"
> When I started on my own scientific investigations 20 years ago I took 
> SRT totally at face value, totally uncritically.  I didn't actually 
> start by asking "Why?" in relation to SRT.  As I progressed with my 
> research, essentially into aspects on electromagnetic waves anf the 
> fundamental nature of time, it gradually became apparent that there IS 
> a "Why!".  That 'why' rests on the fact that all material objects are 
> formed from electromagnetic energy (hence E = Mc-squared); in a moving 
> object that energy is travelling linearly as well as cyclically within 
> the object - and this combined motion beautifully explains EVERY 
> aspect of SRT.
> This explanation boils down to two considerations:
> (1) Material objects are affected by their formative energy-flows 
> moving linearly as well as cyclically, giving rise to time-dilation 
> precisely in accordance with the formula given by SRT and 
> Lorentz-Fitzgerald Contraction as also 'imported' into SRT;
> (2) Material objects which happen to be (a) observers or (b) measuring 
> instruments are likewise affected in both these respects when in 
> motion, giving all other observed consequences detailed by SRT - as 
> observer effects.
> [As a point of detail, it IS possible to show the fallacy in SRT only 
> if you consider matters from the level of particle formation, rather 
> than complete particles.]
> In other words, ALL observed phenomena that appear to confirm SRT (and 
> also, in fact, GRT) can be fully explained WITHOUT the 'metaphysical' 
> claim that "All inertial reference frames are equivalent" - that claim 
> by SRT is a myth, one that has NO support in the evidence claimed for 
> it.  It is a totally superfluous add-on to our picture of physical 
> reality.
> This being the case, the requirement (by mainstream physics) that all 
> phenomena/fields/whatever MUST conform to that claim is arguably 
> holding us back from making significant breakthroughs in our 
> understanding of reality - breakthroughs that might even (dare I say 
> it?) take us to the stars.  We are fencing ourselves in with an 
> imaginary boundary.
> Grahame
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Wolfgang Baer <mailto:wolf at nascentinc.com>
> *To:* general at lists..natureoflightandparticles.org 
> <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 03, 2017 7:46 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [General] STR twin Paradox
>
> Albrecht:
>
> Tell me why this is not thought experiment that shows Einsteins SRT 
> interpretation gives rize to a paradox and therefore is wrong.
>
>
> Twin Paradox Experiment:
>
> 1) Somewhere in an intergalactic space far away from all local masses 
> two identical twins are accelerated to opposite velocities so that 
> each thinks the other is traveling away from themselves at velocity “v”.
>
> By the equivalence principle both feel the equivalent of a temporary 
> gravitational force which slows their clocks the same amount. They are 
> now drifting apart
>
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> 2) Each of the twins feels he is standing still and the other twin is 
> moving with a constant velocity “v” away. According to special 
> relativity the relation between their own time Δt and the time they 
> believe the other twins elapsed time Δt’ is; Δt’ = Δt/ (1-v^2 /c^2 )^1/2 .
>
>
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> 3)
>
> After 1 year on Twin 1’sclock he believes twin two’s clock is Δt_1 ’ = 
> Δt_1 / (1-v^2 /c^2 )^1/2 After 1 year on Twin 1’sclock he believes 
> twin two’s clock is Δt_2 ’ = Δt_2 / (1-v^2 /c^2 )^1/2
>
> Thus Δt_1 = Δt_2 = 12 months Lets assume the velocities are such that 
> Δt_1 ’ = Δt_2 ’ = 13 months.
>
> 4) After one year on their own clock each twin fires a retro rocket 
> that reverses their velocities. By the equivalence principle the both 
> clocks experience a gravity like force and their clocks speed up. Lets 
> assume the acceleration lasts 1 day on their own clocks so now Δt_1 = 
> Δt_2 = 12 months + 1day and knowing the plan Δt_1 ’ = Δt_2 ’ = 13m + 1d
>
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> 5) Now the two twins are drifting with the same relative velocity but 
> toward each other with opposite signs. Each twin thinks the others 
> clocks are lowing down by the formula Δt’ = Δt/ (1-v^2 /c^2 )^1/2 . 
> They drift for exactly one year and now Δt_1 = Δt_2 = 24 months + 1day 
> and they believing in special relativity think Δt_1 ’ = Δt_2 ’ = 26 
> months.+ 1.083days.
>
> 6) now the stop rocket fires for half a day on each twins clock and 
> the twins come to rest exactly at the place they started. Their own 
> clocks tell Δt_1 = Δt_2 = 24 months + 1.5day and they believing in 
> special relativity think the others clock should be Δt_1 ’ = Δt_2 ’ = 
> 26 months.+ 1.583days.
>
> They get out of their space ship/ coordinate frames and find that the 
> two clocks tell exactly the same time so their belief in special 
> relativity was wrong.
>
> Dr. Wolfgang Baer
> Research Director
> Nascent Systems Inc.
> tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
> E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com
> On 5/30/2017 1:37 PM, Albrecht Giese wrote:
>>
>> Wolf,
>>
>> before we enter discussions about details I send you a drawing of my 
>> experiment with some explanations. I think that it is simple enough 
>> so that we do not need too much philosophy about epistemology to 
>> understand it.
>>
>> My drawing: At the left side you see a part of the ring of the 
>> synchrotron in which the electrons cycle. They hit the target T (at 0 
>> m) where they are converted into photons. The photons fly until the 
>> target H_2 where they are deflected by a small angle (about one 
>> degree) (at 30.5 m). The deflected photons meet the converter (KONV  
>> at 35 m) where a portion of the photons is converted into an 
>> electron- position pair. The pair is detected and analysed in the 
>> configuration of the magnet 2 MC 30 and telescopes of spark chambers 
>> (FT between 37.5 and 39.5 m). The rest of detectors at the right is 
>> for monitoring the basic photon beam.
>>
>> In the magnet and the telescopes the tracks of both particles 
>> (electron and positron) are measured and the momentum and the energy 
>> of both particles is determined.
>>
>> Here all flying objects are interpreted as being particles, there is 
>> no wave model needed. So, I do not see where we should need here any QM.
>>
>> The rest of the mail will be commented later.
>>
>> Albrecht
>>
>>
>
>
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