[General] STR

[Albrecht Giese]

Hello Eric,

about my experiment: It was Proton Compton scattering to check the 
Optical Theorem for very small angles of deflection.

As original source we used an electron beam with electrons of constant 
energy 6 GeV. The electrons were converted into photons by 
bremsstrahlung. The result was an energy spectrum from zero to 6 GeV. 
The maximum of intensity was at 6 GeV, above that was a sharp cut-off.

The photons were deflected by protons (i.e. liquid hydrogen) by very 
small angles, i.e. the detector was placed so that only photons under 
small angles caused a measurement trigger. As a detector a piece of 
aluminium was used in which the photons were converted into 
electron-positron pairs. The electrons and positrons were deflected in a 
magnet and the direction by which these particles left the magnetic 
field was measured by a telescope of spark chambers. From the direction 
of the particles the energy and the momentum of each particle was 
calculated and so the energy of the photon which caused the pair 
production. The result was the same spectrum with the sharp cut-off at 6 
GeV.

For the determination of the photon energy which is the point of our 
discussion here the sharp edge of the spectrum at 6 GeV is essential. 
This edge is known as a property of the bremsstrahlung spectrum and it 
is found in the sum energy of the electron and positron pair.

Do you want more details about this experiment? Please ask.

And which were your experiments about light?

Best
Albrecht


Am 25.05.2017 um 05:31 schrieb Eric Reiter:
> Hello Albrecht:
> I would like to see the details of your experiment:
> "We have discussed this topic earlier here and I have referred to my 
> PhD experiment. In that experiment we have used electrons of a well 
> defined energy to convert them into photons."
> I did original experiments explaining light and charge also.
> Thank you
> Eric Reiter
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2017, 12:02:03 PM PDT, Albrecht Giese 
> <phys at a-giese.de> wrote:
>
> Hi Wolf,
>
>
> Am 22.05.2017 um 06:11 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:
>>
>> I completely agree with Chandra EM waves are quantized during 
>> interaction with matter and then we project the quantized material 
>> state changes back into the waves as a mathematical convenience
>>
> We have discussed this topic earlier here and I have referred to my 
> PhD experiment. In that experiment we have used electrons of a well 
> defined energy to convert them into photons. The photons were after a 
> flight of several meters in the air detected by pair building in a 
> thin layer of copper. The energy of the pair was measured, and the 
> measurement showed the energy of the original electron. So, how can we 
> understand this result if it is not the photon which carries exactly 
> this energy and which is quantized with this energy?
>>
>> to answer some of Albrecht's comments on my 5,15,17 comment; I'm 
>> introducing some new ideas in order to include the mind in physical 
>> theory. Treated individually one can reject them because anything new 
>> can be rejected when one assumes the old is correct. So have patience.
>>
>> 1) "That means a force between charge and mass?" yes it means what it 
>> says. Mass and charge are assumed to be properties of particles. 
>> Particles have been assumed to be points and so mass and charge are 
>> located at points. I believe this is wrong. Mass and charge should be 
>> given separate degrees of freedom and the force between them is not 
>> infinite.
>>
> The force is indeed not infinite, on the contrary, there cannot be a 
> force at all. If we look at the forces of charges, it is obvious (in 
> the mind of physicists) that a charge can only interact with a charge 
> of the same type. So the electrical charge and the charge of the 
> strong force will by common understanding not react in any way. And if 
> now mass is understood as some type of a charge (which is, however, 
> not the understanding of present physics) then there should not be any 
> force between e.g. an electric charge and a mass.
>
> If we look deeper into what mass is by present understanding, then 
> charges may influence the dynamical process which we call "inertia". 
> But that is in that case a  complicated logical connection.
>>
>> 2)"The question here is again: what is more fundamental, action or 
>> force?"  The rest of your comments are simply addressing an 
>> incomplete presentation of my theory. However I consider dynamics or 
>> simply change to be fundamental. Reality is action in a form. Action 
>> is the material of change. Form is the state in which it is manifest. 
>> Action is fundamental  , Energy is the rate of action happening, 
>> force is the experience of all finite particles in a non homogeneous 
>> action flow who all want to experience more action. I think it is 
>> best to defer this discussion to either metaphysics or when I have 
>> complete presentation ready.
>>
> Yes, then we should better wait. -  But up to now I still follow this 
> argument that action is something which  the human brain needs to 
> structure the world so that it fits into our brains. Particles which 
> react to each other do not have this need. They react to a force, and 
> the force and also the reaction to it can be infinitesimal. An action 
> is (by my understanding) something which happens or does not happen. I 
> do not see infinitesimal single steps which each can be understood as 
> an action. So, this is my argument that action is a typical case of 
> "human understanding".
>>
>> SRT:
>>
>> "First: this whole process has absolutely nothing to do with gravity. 
>> Why do you connect it to gravity?" Because I have seen the twin 
>> paradox explained by including gravity in text books. clocks slow 
>> down because of velocity but speed up because of acceleration the two 
>> cancel when two twins are accelerated with constant acceleration for 
>> the first quarter of the trip, the ship turned around decelerated for 
>> the second quarter and continued to be accelerated toward  the start 
>> point, during the third quarter and then rocket reverses for the 
>> third quarter and come to rest rest at the origin where the second 
>> twin has been waiting at rest. Now both twins will agree on the 
>> amount of time passing. The paradox is said to be resolved because 
>> Einstein's Srt is expanded to GRT and gravity is introduced.
>>
> Can you please give me a reference to a text book which connects the 
> twin paradox to gravity? I never heard about such an idea; and the 
> discussion about ageing refers to the time dilation in SRT. You can 
> perform this twin paradox in an environment where no gravitational 
> sources are around, and it would work as usually described.
>
> According to SRT clocks slow down because of velocity. The degree of 
> slow-down is related to the speed of the clocks and to nothing else. 
> Acceleration or deceleration have no influence to the behaviour of 
> clock. This statement you will find uniformly in all textbooks.
>
> Then you write: "... and then rocket reverses for the third quarter 
> and come to rest rest at the origin where the second twin has been 
> waiting at rest." Now I am confused. I have understood that both twins 
> move and change their motion at exactly the same times. How can it 
> then happen that on twin is at rest and expects the other one?
>>
>> "And second: the whole process as you describe it is completely 
>> symmetrical. Both twins make the same experience with time and with 
>> there according ageing. Where the hell do you see a paradox?" The 
>> paradox is that both twins see the other moving at a constant 
>> velocity for an arbitrarily long period of time
>>
> why for an arbitrarily long period of time? It is only for the time 
> until the other twin changes his speed.
>>
>> and each one would according to SRT calculate the other twin has aged 
>> relative to himself. both cannot be right. by making the acceleration 
>> period small and symmetric the coast period large i eliminate the 
>> gravity explanation but retain an arbitrarily long constant velocity. 
>> SO SRT HAS A PARADOX AND IT CANNOT BE RESOLVED IN GRT.
>>
> Perhaps I understand now where you see the paradox. Assume the 
> following case which is sometimes discussed. There are two observers, 
> A and B, and both have clocks with them. We assume that both observers 
> move with respect to each other. Then observer A will find that the 
> clock of observer B runs more slowly. But as both observers are 
> physically equivalent also observer B will find that the clock of 
> observer A runs more slowly.
>
> This sounds like a paradox or even like a logical conflict. But it is 
> not. To see why not we have to have a closer look on how clock speeds 
> (or the time in different frames) are compared. It is not as simple as 
> it looks like.
>
> If the observer A will compare his clock run with the one of observer 
> B, he will e.g. place two of his clocks, which we will call clock 1 
> and clock 2 (and which he has of course synchronized) along the path 
> of observer B. Then he will compare the clock of observer B with his 
> clock 1 and then with clock 2 in the moment when the observer B passes 
> these clocks. The result will be that the clock of observer B have run 
> more slowly.
>
> But how now the other way around? The observer B can of course compare 
> his clock with both clocks of observer A when he passes these clocks. 
> But now a difference: Both clocks of observer A have been synchronized 
> in the frame of A. But in the frame of B they will not be synchronized 
> (a fundamental fact in SRT). From the view of observer B the clock 1 
> of observer A will be retarded with respect to the clock 2. So, the 
> observer B can reproduce the observation of observer A in the way that 
> observer A sees the clock of B slowed down. But observer B will use a 
> different method to determine the speed of the clocks of observer A. 
> Observe B will also position two clocks along the path which observer 
> A follows in frame B and he will synchronize these clocks in /*his*/ 
> frame B. And with his clocks he will find that the clocks of A run 
> slower compared to his own ones.
>
> This different clock synchronization follows from the time-related 
> part of the Lorentz transformation:
>
>       t = gamma*(t'-vx/c^2 ) with gamma = sqrt(1/(1 - v^2 /c^2 )). 
> Regarding the example above v is the speed between the frames of A and 
> of B.
>
> Is this understandable? (I have presented it in Porto Novo when I 
> talked about the problem of de Broglie with SRT.) If not clear, please 
> ask further questions I and shall go into more details.
>>
>> *do my Emails show up*
>>
>> *I CC'd you and you should get this directly and in 
>> general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org 
>> <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>*
>>
>> Let me know if you get them
>>
> I have received your mail once. But last time also Chandra and Adrew 
> have answered. So the general distribution seems to work
>
> Albrecht
>>
>> Wolf
>>
>>
>> Dr. Wolfgang Baer
>> Research Director
>> Nascent Systems Inc.
>> tel/fax 831-659-3120/0432
>> E-mailwolf at NascentInc.com <mailto:wolf at NascentInc.com>
>> On 5/20/2017 12:19 PM, Roychoudhuri, Chandra wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Andrew W.:
>>>
>>> Yes, I basically agree with you that STR is not a theory of physics. 
>>> It is smart mathematics only.
>>>
>>> Whereas, photoelectric equation is physics, even though, 
>>> quantization is postulated wrongly on EM waves, rather than on 
>>> quantum mechanically bound electrons!
>>>
>>> Chandra.
>>>
>>> ==================================
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: General 
>>> [mailto:general-bounces+chandra.roychoudhuri=uconn.edu at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org] 
>>> On Behalf Of ANDREW WORSLEY
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 2:24 AM
>>> To: Nature of Light and Particles - General Discussion 
>>> <general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org> 
>>> <mailto:general at lists.natureoflightandparticles.org>; Wolfgang Baer 
>>> <wolf at nascentinc.com> <mailto:wolf at nascentinc.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [General] HA: Gravity
>>>
>>> Hi all
>>>
>>> STR is a complex subject - all observers are equal - but then 
>>> implies reciprocity, that's the bit that's flawed actually
>>>
>>> ========================================
>>>
>>> Message Received: May 18 2017, 08:34 PM
>>>
>>> From: "Albrecht Giese"
>>>
>>> To: "Wolfgang Baer" , "Nature of Light and Particles - General 
>>> Discussion"
>>>
>>> Cc:
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [General] HA: Gravity
>>>
>>> Hi Wolf,
>>>
>>> again comments in the text.
>>>
>>> Am 15.05.2017 um 02:01 schrieb Wolfgang Baer:
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > No Kc is the spring constant of the force holding charge and mass
>>>
>>> > together
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> That means a force between charge and mass? To my understanding mass 
>>> and charge are completely different categories as a wrote last time. 
>>> Charge is a permanent property of some object, whereas mass is a 
>>> dynamical process which also changes when the object changes its 
>>> motion state (which at the end is : relativity).
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > In order to build a framework of a physical theory that properly
>>>
>>> > includes the observer as a measurement model building and acting
>>>
>>> > component I use a very simplified concept built on the classic
>>>
>>> > metaphysical ideas that mass,charge, space, time along with the 
>>> forces
>>>
>>> > between them are fundamental. Here are some of the differences 
>>> between
>>>
>>> > my cognitive action theory CAT and classic physics
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> Just a question at this point: to which set of "metaphysical ideas" 
>>> do you refer? If we refer to main stream physics, at least mass is a 
>>> different category. And also time and space are most probably 
>>> different categories from the others, at least for some of the 
>>> physical community.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > * Summary of Action Theory additions to Classic Physical Concepts*
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > The examples provided in this section are intended to show how action
>>>
>>> > theory is applied to well known and observable situations that can be
>>>
>>> > compared with analysis using classical physics concepts. What CAT has
>>>
>>> > added is summarized as follows:
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > -Change involving transitions between states is where physics is
>>>
>>> > happening.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > -Change, visualized as stable action patterns, propagates through
>>>
>>> > material media.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > -The degrees of freedom of classical systems has been doubled by
>>>
>>> > separating mass and charge.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > -Internal material forces between mass and charge are introduced as
>>>
>>> > heuristic visualizations to augment understanding of the interior of
>>>
>>> > matter which is conventionally the domain of quantum theory (see
>>>
>>> > chapter 6)
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > -Mach’s principle and the connection between the inertial field is
>>>
>>> > introduced in place of the observational pseudo forces such as the
>>>
>>> > centrifugal force and “m∙a” in Newton’s formulation. (See Appendix on
>>>
>>> > Mach’s Principle)
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > -Time is defined as the name of the state of the system adopted as a
>>>
>>> > clock, and time intervals are measured as action required to change a
>>>
>>> > state separated by a constant state distance.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > Action theory is being developed as the physical underpinnings of an
>>>
>>> > event oriented world view and a description of reality which includes
>>>
>>> > both the subjective and objective aspect of reality described by CAT.
>>>
>>> The question here is again: what is more fundamental, action or force?
>>>
>>> In the reductionist's world the fundamental processes are very 
>>> simple but go on in a huge number. So, it is a tendency, or a good 
>>> strategy of our brains to build categories. For instance, there are 
>>> billions of trees on our earth. No brain of a human being is able to 
>>> register and to remember all these trees. So, our brain build the 
>>> category "tree".
>>>
>>> That is helpful. But the cells in the trees have no logical 
>>> connection to the category-building, they follow fundamental rules.
>>>
>>> In an analogue way, there is a force between charges (else not!). If 
>>> objects move which have charges the forces will cause that the 
>>> motion of the objects is influenced, the path changes accordingly. 
>>> That is fundamental. A human brain can now build the category of an 
>>> "action" to describe, or better: to categories this process. This 
>>> brain-related process is in my view a less fundamental view to the 
>>> world, even though a helpful one.
>>>
>>> But again: mass and charge are not the same category. It is true 
>>> that there would be no inertia if there would not be charges in the 
>>> world.
>>>
>>> But taken in this was, mass is a consequence of charges (and a 
>>> dynamical consequence). So one could say: a consequence on a higher 
>>> level.
>>>
>>> And for "time" I agree that this is a structural way of humans to 
>>> categorize motion. "Space" may be a structural way to treat the 
>>> effect of charges.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > *Twin Paradox:*
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > You mentioned the twin paradox is explained by the Lorenz
>>>
>>> > transformation since t'=t/sqrt(1-v*v/c*c) which describes time 
>>> dilation
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > How do you avoid the paradox in the following experiment
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > Two twins are accelerated with a small short pulse in opposite 
>>> directions.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > At some very long time they are both reversed with a double pulse
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > when they meet they are stopped by a short pulse.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > The experiment is completely symmetric. both twins experience the 
>>> same
>>>
>>> > acceleration pulse so gravity clock effects are equal and can be
>>>
>>> > eliminated from a comparison but not eliminated is the arbitrarily
>>>
>>> > long period where they are traveling with a velocity relative to each
>>>
>>> > other. Since the time dilation formula only contains
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > velocity squared the direction of relative travel does not make a
>>>
>>> > difference. If the theory is correct there is a paradox and gravity
>>>
>>> > cannot explain it.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> First: this whole process has absolutely nothing to do with gravity. 
>>> Why
>>>
>>> do you connect it to gravity?
>>>
>>> And second: the whole process as you describe it is completely
>>>
>>> symmetrical. Both twins make the same experience with time and with
>>>
>>> there according ageing. Where the hell do you see a paradox? I cannot
>>>
>>> see a paradox and the whole thing is as simple as it can be.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > *do my Emails show up in the general discussion I keep only getting
>>>
>>> > replies from people who send them directly and my E-mails do not show
>>>
>>> > up in the discussion forum, so I'm wondering?*
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> To test it, you may sent this mail again without my address in the 
>>> list;
>>>
>>> then I can tell you (if informed) if I got it.
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > Best,
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > wolf
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Albrecht
>>>
>>>
>
>
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